Zone1 The original lie in the Garden of Eden

[Paradoxical#1]

Yeah, right. I’ve heard your story. You blame Christianity instead of an overbearing father. As near as I can tell you are just like him.

He was following what the priests and monks told him that delighted his imagined God based on scripture, which by the way hasn't changed. All that did change is that your evil church fathers in the 60s somehow found that they had a "deeper understanding" of scripture and women were no longer chattels or property and equal to what .......3/5ths of that of a male?

Genesis 3:16: After the Fall, God says to Eve, “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Numbers 30:3-15: A woman’s vow could be nullified by her father or husband.

Ephesians 5:22-24 (though in the New Testament, it references Old Testament principles): Wives are instructed to submit to their husbands.

Leviticus 27:1-8: In the context of vows and valuations for dedicating people to God, a male’s value is set higher than a female’s (e.g., 50 shekels for a man aged 20-60 vs. 30 shekels for a woman).

Deuteronomy 22:28-29: A man who violates an unbetrothed virgin must marry her and pay her father, which can be seen as treating women as property, though it also ensured her provision in a society where virginity affected marriageability.

 

[Hafar1014]

He was following what the priests and monks told him that delighted his imagined God based on scripture, which by the way hasn't changed. All that did change is that your evil church fathers in the 60s somehow found that they had a "deeper understanding" of scripture and women were no longer chattels or property and equal to what .......3/5ths of that of a male?

Genesis 3:16: After the Fall, God says to Eve, “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Numbers 30:3-15: A woman’s vow could be nullified by her father or husband.

Ephesians 5:22-24 (though in the New Testament, it references Old Testament principles): Wives are instructed to submit to their husbands.

Leviticus 27:1-8: In the context of vows and valuations for dedicating people to God, a male’s value is set higher than a female’s (e.g., 50 shekels for a man aged 20-60 vs. 30 shekels for a woman).

Deuteronomy 22:28-29: A man who violates an unbetrothed virgin must marry her and pay her father, which can be seen as treating women as property, though it also ensured her provision in a society where virginity affected marriageability.

Women is defined as kenegado not above or below mans other self.
There was no fall its Mans Trial for freedom. The knowledge of morals cant be fall its a major accomplishment thats why God says "Let us make the man" Use of the royal we means a great accomplishment has occurred. That aint no fall baby thats step up.
So how long have you hated women

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Women is defined as kenegado not above or below mans other self.
There was no fall its Mans Trial for freedom. The knowledge of morals cant be fall its a major accomplishment thats why God says "Let us make the man" Use of the royal we means a great accomplishment has occurred. That aint no fall baby thats step up.
So how long have you hated women

I have no clue what you're babbling about, and you don't either. It is you GOD who inspired the bible to make females subservient. Not me.

 

[ding]

No sun no light The night sky is dark just like your interpretation

An allegorical account of God creating existence.

God created the universe from nothing. Everything evolved over time in a logical sequence after that creative act.

 

[ding]

He was following what the priests and monks told him that delighted his imagined God based on scripture, which by the way hasn't changed. All that did change is that your evil church fathers in the 60s somehow found that they had a "deeper understanding" of scripture and women were no longer chattels or property and equal to what .......3/5ths of that of a male?

Genesis 3:16: After the Fall, God says to Eve, “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Numbers 30:3-15: A woman’s vow could be nullified by her father or husband.

Ephesians 5:22-24 (though in the New Testament, it references Old Testament principles): Wives are instructed to submit to their husbands.

Leviticus 27:1-8: In the context of vows and valuations for dedicating people to God, a male’s value is set higher than a female’s (e.g., 50 shekels for a man aged 20-60 vs. 30 shekels for a woman).

Deuteronomy 22:28-29: A man who violates an unbetrothed virgin must marry her and pay her father, which can be seen as treating women as property, though it also ensured her provision in a society where virginity affected marriageability.

Oh, your poor father. He had no control over what he was doing.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Oh, your poor father. He had no control over what he was doing.

Believers do what the bible says. You are not a believer.

 

[Stryder50]

Believers do what the bible says. You are not a believer.

OT or NT ?
There are parts of both that contradict the other.

 

[Stryder50]

you have the INITIATION of hebrew writing SUDDENLY arising after lots of the Babylonian
talmud was already written ----to wit 500 BC when you claim that hebrew writing SUDDENLY
arose

...
The Talmud is a commentary on the Mishnah. This text is made up of 63 tractates, each covering one subject area. The language of the Talmud is Jewish Babylonian Aramaic. Talmudic tradition emerged and was compiled between the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE and the Arab conquest in the early seventh century.Traditionally, it is thought that the Talmud itself was compiled by Rav Ashi and Ravina II around 500 CE, although it is more likely that this happened in the middle of the sixth century.
....

Talmud - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You have a different source to support your claim/post ?

 

[Stryder50]

Such as?

Where's my cashiers check ?
I only reply to demands if paid.

 

[rosends]

...
The Talmud is a commentary on the Mishnah. This text is made up of 63 tractates, each covering one subject area. The language of the Talmud is Jewish Babylonian Aramaic. Talmudic tradition emerged and was compiled between the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE and the Arab conquest in the early seventh century.Traditionally, it is thought that the Talmud itself was compiled by Rav Ashi and Ravina II around 500 CE, although it is more likely that this happened in the middle of the sixth century.
....

Talmud - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You have a different source to support your claim/post ?

I know I'm coming late to this but your earlier statement was "Hebrews appear to have started their written records about 1500 years later." I'm not sure where you get that from. The Torah text was written down well before that, as were other texts.

Also that wiki entry about the Talmud is poorly worded (at best).

 

[Hafar1014]

OT or NT ?
There are parts of both that contradict the other.

The Pentateuch doesn't say it expresses ideas as allegories with the exception of Leviticus

I know I'm coming late to this but your earlier statement was "Hebrews appear to have started their written records about 1500 years later." I'm not sure where you get that from. The Torah text was written down well before that, as were other texts.

Also that wiki entry about the Talmud is poorly worded (at best).

Originally it may even be older since a lot of Genesis is from an oral tradition of Hebrew folklore

 

[ding]

Believers do what the bible says. You are not a believer.

I can’t help it if your folks got it wrong.

 

[Stryder50]

I know I'm coming late to this but your earlier statement was "Hebrews appear to have started their written records about 1500 years later." I'm not sure where you get that from. The Torah text was written down well before that, as were other texts.

Also that wiki entry about the Talmud is poorly worded (at best).

I'm a goyim.
You have alternate sources with alternate information, then please present.
Meanwhile, I'll go with generic Wiki;
...
Abraham (originally Abram) is the common Hebrew patriarch of the Abrahamic religions, including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. ...
....
He is said to have been called by God to leave the house of his father Terah and settle in the land of Canaan, which God now promises to Abraham and his progeny. ...
....
Most scholars view the patriarchal age, along with the Exodus and the period of the biblical judges, as a late literary construct that does not relate to any particular historical era. It is largely concluded that the Torah, the series of books that includes Genesis, was composed during the Persian period, as a result of tensions between Jewish landowners who had stayed in Judah during the Babylonian captivity and traced their right to the land through their "father Abraham", and the returning exiles who based their counterclaim on Moses and the Exodus tradition of the Israelites. ...
....

Personal life
Born	אַבְרָם Avrám[1] 1948 AM Ur Kasdim, Mesopotamia
Died	2123 AM Cave of Machpelah, Hebron, Canaan[8]

....
("AM" explained in following post)
....
Terah, the ninth in descent from Noah, was the father of Abram, Nahor, Haran (Hebrew: הָרָן Hārān) and Sarah. Haran was the father of Lot, who was Abram's nephew; the family lived in Ur of the Chaldees. ...
....

....

Abraham - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

....
"Persian period" above refers to;

The Achaemenid Empire or Achaemenian Empire, also known as the Persian Empire or First Persian Empire, was an Iranian empire founded by Cyrus the Great of the Achaemenid dynasty in 550 BC. Based in modern-day Iran, it was the largest empire by that point in history, ...
....
It's my understanding then, that some time after 550 BC is when the Hebrews were in Persia, hence when the Oral Tradition was put into writing, Hebrew.
It's likely that Hebrew as a written language existed before this date, my "claim" is that it is about this time when the first WRITTEN Torah would occur.

My larger point is that with Hebrew exposure to and habitation in Persia, combined with Abraham's origins in former Sumeria, that most of first chapters in Genesis would be derived from the earlier Enuma Elish - Sumerian Creation Records.
...........
Preview for next post is that per AM = Anno Mundi; Abraham would appear to have been born about 1813 BC, and died about 1714 BC. This suggest that his pact/covenant with JHWH would be around 1700 BC +/- ?? years ~??? . (If I'm doing the arithmetic correct)

 

[Hafar1014]

I'm a goyim.
You have alternate sources with alternate information, then please present.
Meanwhile, I'll go with generic Wiki;
...
Abraham (originally Abram) is the common Hebrew patriarch of the Abrahamic religions, including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. ...
....
He is said to have been called by God to leave the house of his father Terah and settle in the land of Canaan, which God now promises to Abraham and his progeny. ...
....
Most scholars view the patriarchal age, along with the Exodus and the period of the biblical judges, as a late literary construct that does not relate to any particular historical era. It is largely concluded that the Torah, the series of books that includes Genesis, was composed during the Persian period, as a result of tensions between Jewish landowners who had stayed in Judah during the Babylonian captivity and traced their right to the land through their "father Abraham", and the returning exiles who based their counterclaim on Moses and the Exodus tradition of the Israelites. ...
....

Personal life
Born	אַבְרָם Avrám[1] 1948 AM Ur Kasdim, Mesopotamia
Died	2123 AM Cave of Machpelah, Hebron, Canaan[8]

....
("AM" explained in following post)
....
Terah, the ninth in descent from Noah, was the father of Abram, Nahor, Haran (Hebrew: הָרָן Hārān) and Sarah. Haran was the father of Lot, who was Abram's nephew; the family lived in Ur of the Chaldees. ...
....
View attachment 1155085
....

Abraham - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

....
"Persian period" above refers to;

The Achaemenid Empire or Achaemenian Empire, also known as the Persian Empire or First Persian Empire, was an Iranian empire founded by Cyrus the Great of the Achaemenid dynasty in 550 BC. Based in modern-day Iran, it was the largest empire by that point in history, ...
....
It's my understanding then, that some time after 550 BC is when the Hebrews were in Persia, hence when the Oral Tradition was put into writing, Hebrew.
It's likely that Hebrew as a written language existed before this date, my "claim" is that it is about this time when the first WRITTEN Torah would occur.

My larger point is that with Hebrew exposure to and habitation in Persia, combined with Abraham's origins in former Sumeria, that most of first chapters in Genesis would be derived from the earlier Enuma Elish - Sumerian Creation Records.
...........
Preview for next post is that per AM = Anno Mundi; Abraham would appear to have been born about 1813 BC, and died about 1714 BC. This suggest that his pact/covenant with JHWH would be around 1700 BC +/- ?? years ~??? . (If I'm doing the arithmetic correct)

Goy, goyim is plural. I believe Genesis has many sources of inspiration including an oral tradition of Hebrew folklore. The serpent is a character from folklore. Its the metaphor for guile and the only animal with the power of speech. Its not the devil. My take is that its thinking is far advanced for its time. It describes evolution, the inherent need for humans to have meaning in their lives, morals and free will must be used together, women is mans other self
The meaning of

k′negdok prime n e g d o
has been debated for centuries, with different interpretations offering nuance to the relationship between man and woman:

• Equal and adequate: One view is that
  
  
  
  k′negdok
  indicates the woman is an equal counterpart to the man, neither superior nor inferior. In this sense, she is a matching opposite, like a mirrored reflection.

Its a beautiful allegory of mans development choice to come to God and define his life. Many thousands of years later Viktor Frankl gave us the psychology of meaning

 

[Stryder50]

OK, now to try and make sense of calendars and dating, etc.

AM/A.M.;

Anno Mundi (from Latin 'in the year of the world'; Hebrew: לבריאת העולם, romanized: Livryat haOlam, lit. 'to the creation of the world'), abbreviated as AM or A.M., or Year After Creation, is a calendar era based on biblical accounts of the creation of the world and subsequent history. Two such calendar eras of notable use are:
....
Since the Middle Ages, the Hebrew calendar has been based on rabbinic calculations of the year of creation from the Hebrew Masoretic Text of the Bible. This calendar is used within Jewish communities for religious purposes and is one of two official calendars in Israel. In the Hebrew calendar, the day begins at sunset. The calendar's epoch, corresponding to the calculated date of the world's creation, is equivalent to sunset on the Julian proleptic calendar date 6 October 3761 BCE. The new year begins at Rosh Hashanah, in Tishrei. Anno mundi 5785 (meaning the 5,785th year since the creation of the world) began at sunset on October 3, 2024, according to the Gregorian calendar. ...
(Being now 2025, that means 5786 years ago for "Creation".)
(( Again, note we are dealing with chronology per Old Testament (Torah) of the Bible, not current science. We will try to adjust Biblical to actual.))
....
While both eras reputedly begin with the creation of the world, their disparity in epoch lies in the biblical texts chosen to infer a year of creation. According to the Septuagint, the Earth seems to have been created roughly around 5500 BCE, and about 3760 BCE based on the Hebrew Masoretic text. Most of the 1,732-year difference resides in numerical discrepancies in the genealogies of the two versions of the Book of Genesis. ...
....
There are also discrepancies between methods of dating based on the text of the Bible vs. modern academic dating of landmark events used to calibrate year counts, such as the destruction of the First Temple—see Missing years (Jewish calendar). ...
....
Western Christianity never fully adopted an Anno Mundi epoch system, and did not at first produce chronologies based on the Vulgate that were in contrast to the Eastern calculations from the Septuagint. Since the Vulgate was not completed until only a few years before the sack of Rome by the Goths, there was little time for such developments before the political upheavals that followed in the West. Whatever the reasons, the West eventually came to rely instead on the independently developed Anno Domini (AD) epoch system. AM dating did continue to be of interest for liturgical reasons, since it was of direct relevance to the date of birth of Jesus (AM 5197–5199) and the Passion of Christ (AM 5228–5231). For example, Bede in his World-Chronicle (Chapter 66 of his De Temporum Ratione, On the Reckoning of Time), dated all events using an epoch he derived from the Vulgate which set the birth of Christ as AM 3952. In his Letter to Plegwin, Bede explained the difference between the two epochs. ...
....

Anno Mundi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

....

Today (at UTC+00)
Wednesday
Gregorian calendar	27 August, AD 2025
Islamic calendar	3 Rabi' al-awwal, AH 1447 (using tabular method)
Hebrew calendar	3 Elul, AM 5785
Coptic calendar	21 Mesori, AM 1741
Solar Hijri calendar	5 Shahrivar, SH 1404
Bengali calendar	12 Bhadro, BS 1432
Julian calendar	14 August, AD 2025

I realize this might seem to have strayed from the theme/topic of the OP, but the fable of "Garden of Eden" includes the material presented regarding prior and after that event/topic.

 

[rosends]

I'm a goyim.
You have alternate sources with alternate information, then please present.
Meanwhile, I'll go with generic Wiki;
...
Abraham (originally Abram) is the common Hebrew patriarch of the Abrahamic religions, including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. ...
....
He is said to have been called by God to leave the house of his father Terah and settle in the land of Canaan, which God now promises to Abraham and his progeny. ...
....
Most scholars view the patriarchal age, along with the Exodus and the period of the biblical judges, as a late literary construct that does not relate to any particular historical era. It is largely concluded that the Torah, the series of books that includes Genesis, was composed during the Persian period, as a result of tensions between Jewish landowners who had stayed in Judah during the Babylonian captivity and traced their right to the land through their "father Abraham", and the returning exiles who based their counterclaim on Moses and the Exodus tradition of the Israelites. ...
....

Personal life
Born	אַבְרָם Avrám[1] 1948 AM Ur Kasdim, Mesopotamia
Died	2123 AM Cave of Machpelah, Hebron, Canaan[8]

....
("AM" explained in following post)
....
Terah, the ninth in descent from Noah, was the father of Abram, Nahor, Haran (Hebrew: הָרָן Hārān) and Sarah. Haran was the father of Lot, who was Abram's nephew; the family lived in Ur of the Chaldees. ...
....
View attachment 1155085
....

Abraham - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

....
"Persian period" above refers to;

The Achaemenid Empire or Achaemenian Empire, also known as the Persian Empire or First Persian Empire, was an Iranian empire founded by Cyrus the Great of the Achaemenid dynasty in 550 BC. Based in modern-day Iran, it was the largest empire by that point in history, ...
....
It's my understanding then, that some time after 550 BC is when the Hebrews were in Persia, hence when the Oral Tradition was put into writing, Hebrew.
It's likely that Hebrew as a written language existed before this date, my "claim" is that it is about this time when the first WRITTEN Torah would occur.

My larger point is that with Hebrew exposure to and habitation in Persia, combined with Abraham's origins in former Sumeria, that most of first chapters in Genesis would be derived from the earlier Enuma Elish - Sumerian Creation Records.
...........
Preview for next post is that per AM = Anno Mundi; Abraham would appear to have been born about 1813 BC, and died about 1714 BC. This suggest that his pact/covenant with JHWH would be around 1700 BC +/- ?? years ~??? . (If I'm doing the arithmetic correct)

First off, while you might be a non-Jew I would not say you are a "goyim."

Second, I appreciate what you are presenting. It comes from a particular perspective, one which I do not share. But (and this is vital) I don't share it as a matter of faith. I'm not arguing the material you presented, just following my faith that the text was composed when it occurred.

 

[Stryder50]

Goy, goyim is plural. I believe Genesis has many sources of inspiration including an oral tradition of Hebrew folklore. The serpent is a character from folklore. Its the metaphor for guile and the only animal with the power of speech. Its not the devil. My take is that its thinking is far advanced for its time. It describes evolution, the inherent need for humans to have meaning in their lives, morals and free will must be used together, women is mans other self
The meaning of
View attachment 1155108
k′negdok prime n e g d o
has been debated for centuries, with different interpretations offering nuance to the relationship between man and woman:

• Equal and adequate: One view is that
  View attachment 1155109
  k′negdok
  indicates the woman is an equal counterpart to the man, neither superior nor inferior. In this sense, she is a matching opposite, like a mirrored reflection.

Its a beautiful allegory of mans development choice to come to God and define his life. Many thousands of years later Viktor Frankl gave us the psychology of meaning

I'm not going to bother with edit to "goy" in place of "goyim", since intent remains the same.

As for your post, modern science in form of biology and genetics confirms that males, of all species including humans, are mutants, genetic alterations of the female, which is Natures basic life blueprint. Species reproduction is Prime Directive, so Female is the key component. Male is secondary.

Human history (his story) and most writing reflects the male dominance and perspective seen in most cultures.

 

[Zebra]

with lie i mean the geographical position

 

[ding]

with lie i mean the geographical position

I think the word you are looking for is location.

 

[Zebra]

Anunnaki blended some of their DNA with earlier hominids to produce human/homo sapiens by accelerating their evolution.
Reptiles and humans(Anunnaki) have much common DNA to be closely related.

I thought Anunnaki are esoterical only