Zone1 The Four Ways of “Knowing” (From a Christian standpoint)

I would lump 3 and 4 together. To me that's the Holy Spirit.

Fair enough. The reason I separated the two is because all people, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, have a conscience and intuition...which is from God. However I think that's different than divine revelation that is life-changing. For example, when an atheist or agnostic is about to come to Christ, often there is a specific event of God opening that person's eyes, and that's when they go from unbelief to belief...and that would be an example of a revelation, not mere intuition.

Also, I know this is controversial but in my view God still 'speaks' to His people in different ways, and that can be something specific for that person (as opposed to general revelation.) Some people call that a 'rhema word.' I just call it getting a word from God, or a revelation. So that's why I see a difference between numbers 3 and 4. But I do see how some people would combine those last two.
 
I'm almost positive I had that book (The Heavenly Man) a long time ago, but maybe I didn't read it, because I can't remember the details...even though I know it's a really good book. Thanks for reminding me about it! I really should buy a bunch of those books that I used to have. Getting used copies shouldn't be too expensive.

Another amazing story is 'The Torn Veil.' It's a true story about a woman from a Muslim country, who was disabled as a child because of a disease. She became a Christian because after years of praying to Allah nothing happened, but she tried praying to Jesus and she was miraculously healed. Then they wanted to kill her for converting to Christianity. Anyway, I won't give away the whole story, but that's another great read.

There are so many truly amazing stories of Christian martyrs around the world. The book 'Jesus Freaks' is all about Christian martyrs throughout history, if anyone wants to read the phenomenal stories. It's similar to Foxe's Book of Martyrs. But anyway, I'm getting off topic on my own thread, lol.

I understand...I rebuy books all the time as I give mine away to various people. Then later I need them and have to buy them again. It's a price we pay.

I haven't heard of that book, 'The Torn Veil', but I assure you I will look it up and obtain it. Look forward to reading it. So strange isn't it. God healed her and so Allah wants to kill her. Reminds me of Lazurus when Christ raised him from the dead. (John 12:9-11) Christ raised him, so the Pharisees wanted to kill him. His life was a testimony that his God was God. That he lived was itself a testimony.

I remember those 'Jesus Freaks' years ago, 60's and 70's. Bless their heart, they were coming out of a sex, and drug culture and found Jesus Christ. Their heart was right and they helped institute that great revival in those days.

God can and will reach his people no matter where He has placed them. A certain Bible teacher, who had been a missionary, once told us of a tribe somewhere in some dark pagan country, that he went to. The chief of that tribe agreed to let the missionaries speak with a translator one night as they sat around a campfire. The chief had many wife's. But his main wife was sitting next to him.

The missionary spoke of Christ and how He paid for our sins. And while he was speaking the chief's main wife kept elbowing him in the ribs and was saying something to him. The missionary finally asked the translator, what is she saying to the chief. And he said, she is saying 'see there, I told you there was a God like that'. Point being...how did she know that. Only God.

And that missionary was quick to tell us, if no other person in that tribe was saved, we were sent to get the message to that child of God.

Quantrill
 
because all people, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, have a conscience and intuition...which is from God.
For example, when an atheist or agnostic is about to come to Christ ...

which form, conscience and intuition specifically is from the heavens ... and necessary for spiritual admission.

typical desert religion contradictions and especially christianity where even their monarchical religion attributes their multiple divinity to that of the other two religions despotic single divinity - of which choice within the three is itself contradictory.

contrary to what jesus taught during the 1st century events where monotheism is correctly defined as all in the heavens are equal and collectively manage the universe.
 
which form, conscience and intuition specifically is from the heavens ... and necessary for spiritual admission.

typical desert religion contradictions and especially christianity where even their monarchical religion attributes their multiple divinity to that of the other two religions despotic single divinity - of which choice within the three is itself contradictory.

contrary to what jesus taught during the 1st century events where monotheism is correctly defined as all in the heavens are equal and collectively manage the universe.

That which is written in the Bible, the Word of God.

No contradiction.

Show the contradiction.

Quantrill
 
That which is written in the Bible, the Word of God.

No contradiction.

Show the contradiction.

Quantrill
and especially christianity where even their monarchical religion attributes their multiple divinity to that of the other two religions despotic single divinity ...

- contrary to what jesus taught during the 1st century events where monotheism is correctly defined as all in the heavens are equal and collectively manage the universe.
 
Show where Jesus taught what you say? Please don't manipulate, forge, my posts again to make them say what you want to.

Quantrill

you did not use the c word ... sorry blasphemy is difficult to leave undone, you have my condolence.

- provide in jesus's own hand their claim to be a jew messiah.

... the spoken journals of the 1st century.
 
you did not use the c word ... sorry blasphemy is difficult to leave undone, you have my condolence.

- provide in jesus's own hand their claim to be a jew messiah.

... the spoken journals of the 1st century.

Show the contradiction. You made the accusation. Back it up.

Atheist's are such liars and cowards. You have little to say, and the little you say you can't support.

Quantrill
 
The believer's ability to 'know' is very important. For it parallels our 'faith'.

The unbelieving world knows by its reason and logic and the scientific method of proof. Which is why they always demand proof for what we believe. But the things of God are not given to know to the world by its method. Thus the world mocks our faith because to them we believe something that cannot be proved, cannot be known.

But we who are believers, 'believe' and 'know' the things of Christ and God because we have that added element, the Holy Spirit, in us. That Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, resides in our spirit. (Rom. 8:9) "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

And it is that Spirit that the world does not have. (John 14:16-17) "And I will pray the Father and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

The unbeliever will tell us we cannot know, we just believe. But that is not true. I do know. I know because God by His Spirit has opened my eyes and gives light to my spirit and results in my belief and faith. I believe and know. And from there I seek to learn of God through both the written Word, the Bible, and the living Word, Jesus Christ, whose Spirit lives in my spirit.

Quantrill
Not remotely true that the Brilliant Creator and His Works cannot be known or proven. Not remotely. Many brilliant scientists and scholars have acknowledged the elegant, compelling evidence surrounding every living being. From sunsets, to the miracle of childbirth, the deeper you look and learn, the more the evidence unfolds before you. "I am fearfully and wonderfully made." I do not know a medical doctor who is not convinced of God's divine authority. My two books discuss it scientifically. You may buy them or borrow them at your local library from my local library. Science of the Bible, and Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life, both non-fiction, Science and Religion, Dewey Decimal Listing 215.
 
Not remotely true that the Brilliant Creator and His Works cannot be known or proven. Not remotely. Many brilliant scientists and scholars have acknowledged the elegant, compelling evidence surrounding every living being. From sunsets, to the miracle of childbirth, the deeper you look and learn, the more the evidence unfolds before you. "I am fearfully and wonderfully made." I do not know a medical doctor who is not convinced of God's divine authority. My two books discuss it scientifically. You may buy them or borrow them at your local library from my local library. Science of the Bible, and Brilliant Creations - The Wonder of Nature and Life, both non-fiction, Science and Religion, Dewey Decimal Listing 215.

So, how did you come to Christ? By faith....or because you proved Him?

Quantrill
 
Do you ever think about how we know what we know? I’m no expert on philosophy, but one branch of philosophy that is very interesting to me is epistemology, i.e., the study of knowledge - its origin, nature, different types of knowledge, etc.

There are many different ways to acquire knowledge. But instead of posting an exhaustive list, I think all of the ways can be grouped into four broad categories, or “avenues.” These avenues can also be viewed as levels. They often work together, but there is always a primary way in which knowledge first comes to us.

The framework I’m starting from is the idea that human beings are tripartite: body, soul, and spirit. Each part has different functions. This view that man is tripartite was taught by Watchman Nee, who was a 20th century theologian, evangelist and writer, from China. I believe it is scriptural. If you want to see the different functions, here are a couple images:


View attachment 1230258 View attachment 1230260


The last one on this list will probably be controversial…at least to non-believers. But I don’t want this thread to turn into a theism-vs-atheism debate, that’s not what this is about.

With all that said, here are the four basic ways, or levels, to acquire knowledge:

  1. Through our body: our senses. This is the most basic way of knowing: seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, and tasting. This is empirical knowledge.

  2. Through our soul: our mind and intellect. We can acquire knowledge through reason or logic. This is rational knowledge.

    The soul also includes our emotions, so I believe we can know things through emotional intelligence or empathetic understanding.

  3. Through our spirit: intuition and conscience. This is where it starts to get interesting, in my view. Intuition is a faculty of our spirit. This is knowledge that comes as a sudden insight, as opposed to step-by-step reasoning. This level also includes moral awareness, which comes from our conscience. Our conscience is spiritual, not intellectual. This is spiritual knowledge.

  4. Through God: divine revelation. Finally, the highest way of knowing is when God makes something known to us. This is obviously the most controversial one on this list. But in Christian belief, God can and does reveal truth to us. (1 Cor. 2:10, John 14:26, John 10:27, 2 Timothy 3:16, Romans 8:14-16, Psalm 32:8, etc.) This is revealed knowledge.


I know that not everyone will agree, of course. Even among Christians, there might be some different views on this. But that's OK...I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this topic, whether you agree or disagree. Thanks!

While most of that I largely agree with, I do have a few problems.

For example using your senses. Obviously if you touch fire with your hand, you realize through pain, that fire will harm you. And that is knowledge.

But then there are times in my life where I have learned something through personal experience that I was absolutely sure of with no question in my mind, only to find out that I was totally wrong.
So learning through only personal experience of the sense, can in fact mislead you, and it is a flawed way of gaining knowledge.

Similarly, our minds and intellect can help us gain knowledge, but that too is flawed, because you can use your intellect to learn something that is again, totally wrong.

Further, I would even go so far as to say that emotions are the least useful for gain knowledge, and even that emotions can mess up other attempts at gaining knowledge.
How many people have been a waiter or waitress at a restaurant, and had a customer come in that was angry and upset, or sad before they even sat down, and then complained the food was bad? Or how many have been the customer that came in emotionally messed up and thought the food tasted bad?

Your emotions can change how you perceive your senses, to the point that bad is good, or good is bad.

I myself have had more than a few times where I thought everything was going wrong, when in reality everything was fine, but I just didn't "feel" like it. Or had people I thought were irritating or even intentionally annoying me... only to realize... no they are not doing anything at all, I am just tired, or anxious about some other dumb issue, or I'm just not feeling well... and my emotions are coloring the senses.

The knowledge I was gaining from the situation, was being warped by my emotional state.

And real knowledge is to look at the situation you are in, and the world around you, while eliminated or at least minimizing the emotional influence. There is a huge value in life to being stoic.

Ironically we know this when we apply it to other people. If you watch a movie, the person who can remain calm in a crisis, and determine the best possible course of action, that's the person people look up to and respect. Not the person who freaks out running around crazy, letting their emotions run wild and control them.

Emotions in my view, are 90% bad. We need them. We have them for a reason. Like if you see something that is potentially dangerous to you, fear is a healthy thing that pushes you to find a way to save yourself from driving a car off a cliff. You look at the road, see it curves around, see the drop off.... a healthy fear of falling off the side, makes you slow your car down, pay attention to the signs instructing you, and keep your car on the road.

Equally if you meet someone, and you have absolutely no feeling of affection and attraction at all to that other person.... one would hope you don't date and marry them. That's how you end up in a miserable marriage. You want that emotion to be there.

But you don't want it to control you. And you certainly don't want to rely on your emotions for wisdom or knowledge. I've never met a person in my whole life, that followed their feelings and ended up somewhere good. Every person that achieves anything, they have to work at it.
And that's hard. If you want to be a world class piano player, you are going to be practicing piano at least every other day, if not every day. And news flash, you won't be 'feeling' like practicing most days. You have to do it anyway regardless of your emotions... or you'll never succeed at that, or anything else.

And then you talk about conscience.... and that's helpful, but the conscience, is informed by knowledge.

For example, there are still to this day, places in the world where cannibalism is normal. And if you were born there, you would have problem in your conscience with eating the people you capture and kill.

That conscience is informed by their knowledge that they have, just as you have a conscience informed by your knowledge.

So having a conscience is more of a reflection of gained knowledge, rather than a source of knowledge.

This is also true of intuition. Most natural intuition is born from mind seeing patterns in the world around us. You subconsciously are always seeing patterns. Patterns in your friends. Patterns of sound. Patterns of behavior. You might not actually directly say to yourself "When this X thing happens, then that Y result occurs." But your mind is constantly seeing those things. And women in particular do this more often than men. But at the end of the day, your mind sees a pattern, and can't quite place that pattern, but it seems similar to something bad. And you call that intuition.

But once again, it's a reflection of knowledge learned elsewhere. Not a source of knowledge.

So where does that leave us?

Well.... the gathering of knowledge in the human race, in my view is a bit like an ancient ship sailing somewhere on the sea. Like sailing a ship without stars.... without a compass... Without even a sun dial.

You know the sun rises somewhere in the east, and sets in the west. And so you can sail, and you will make progress, but it's imperfect progress. You are moving. You are learning stuff. But all of our ways of gaining knowledge are to some extent flawed.

So what do we do? Well we anchor our knowledge in the one source of information that is perfect, and that is the Lord. You still take the risk to learn, but you always hold onto the one source of knowledge that has been stable and accurate for all of human history. The Lord. No other source is more trustworthy.

And yes, you will learn things that are not true, and fall into false knowledge. And when you do, you just back up, until you are back on solid ground that God provides, and move forward again from there.

We need to remember as Christians that human knowledge is helpful and good, but it is also manipulated and flawed because it come from human beings that a flawed.

The current Replication Crisis in science if a great example. If you are unaware, we have discovered that more than half of all scientific peer reviewed, published papers in scientific journals... are actually wrong, and some are just... fraud.

What happens is that people will write a scientific paper, have it peer reviewed and approved, end up published in a professional journal, and then.... other people try to use that research to produce results, and they can't replicate the claimed results.

In medical papers, only 44% were replicated. In psychology, only 36% were replicated, while 25% not only couldn't be replicated, but actually had entirely opposite results. Not just wrong, but the opposite of the claimed results. And then all the rest they couldn't get any results from at all either way.

I would suggest that the reasons the psychology replication was far worse, likely has to do with psychology being more grounded in emotions. Where as medical research, you either get a result or you don't. And yet even those results are not all that great.

And why is this? Because knowledge by man is flawed.

But knowledge based on God's word, is never flawed. Only the person reading it is flawed.
 

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