Zone1 Did Satan tell Eve the truth: "You shall NOT surely die?"

Is it true that we humans do not really fully "die?"

  • No, we fully die, just like an animal according to King Solomon.

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • Yes, there is a human spirit or soul that DOES NOT DIE!

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • Other answer, please be specific in a reply.

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • Both "soul" and "body" can be destroyed in Gehenna Fire at the time of the Second Death.

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
eh, you display slightly too much unfounded calculations here, and delve too deep into the Bible for me to even understand the timescale of predictions you indicate, sorry.
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I don't blame you at all,
I began to ask these questions back during the 1970's when I was a teenager listening to Messianic Evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong and his dad Pastor General Herbert W. Armstrong.
 
For years now I have been confronted with evidence that Satan essentially told Eve the truth when he stated:


Was Satan aware of higher level truths than Eve and her husband Adam?

I certainly do think so!

So in a way could it be that Satan's problem was his MOTIVE OR INTENTIONS rather than his exact advice to Eve and Adam?

Here is one of the most extreme examples that I know of that shows how Satan tends to use "True Lies" as opposed to absolute lies?


www.JohnJDavisnde.com/




A related question is whether or not former Covering Cherub Helel may have been with the Ancient of Days the Heavenly Father, and with The Holy Spirit and with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus as the "Word or Logos" for perhaps BILLIONS of years before Satan began to fall about seventy million years ago......
and had fully fallen by about sixty five million years ago to such an extent that Satan then had to be kicked out of heaven?
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Sin brought spiritual death to Adam and every other human after him which is why Jesus died on the cross to offer sinners new life.
 
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Was Satan aware of higher level truths than Eve and her husband Adam?

I certainly do think so!

So in a way could it be that Satan's problem was his MOTIVE OR INTENTIONS rather than his exact advice to Eve and Adam?

Here is one of the most extreme examples that I know of that shows how Satan tends to use "True Lies" as opposed to absolute lies?


www.JohnJDavisnde.com/




A related question is whether or not former Covering Cherub Helel may have been with the Ancient of Days the Heavenly Father, and with The Holy Spirit and with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus as the "Word or Logos" for perhaps BILLIONS of years before Satan began to fall about seventy million years ago......
and had fully fallen by about sixty five million years ago to such an extent that Satan then had to be kicked out of heaven?
Sin brought spiritual death to Adam and every other human after him which is why Jesus died on the cross to offer sinners new life.
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One of the probable errors made by Satan would be to attempt to force a ten thousand year plan to judge Azazel and the Watchers and their children and grandchildren into a much shorter time period?
 
Not really. In the 500 years or so before the Christian era there were several changes and mutations, civil wars, followed by a Greek 'renaissance' type social revolution and finally a Roman occupation. Pharisaic 'Judaism' didn't win out over several other factions until the failed Revolt around 65-70 A.D., and after the Bar Kokhba Revolt and the attempts to murder all the Samaritans, 'Galileans' AKA Christians, and Romans, they finally invented 'Rabbinical Judaism' and formalized the 'Oral Torah' as their gimmick. That's the short answer, without writing an entire book on some 600 years of Jewish and ME history. Jews remained a distinct culture, even if most were non-religious.
Judaism, the 'oral Torah' existed in Jesus' day. It was called "the Tradition of the Elders". Jesus condemned the Pharisees use of it.
 
Am I an idiot to feel that a tiny percentage of Jews felt such extreme animosity toward Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus that they essentially decided that the enemy of my enemy.... must be my friend? Eight thousand five hundred wealtiest of the wealthy is only about one person in a million, [a tiny fraction of all humanity].

I don't bother with a lot of the details, but mainly with the historical record. Jews were as much as 10% of the entire Roman empire, so it's clear it was the Babylonian cult itself that alienated and essentially ran off the vast majority of Jews over the centuries.

They were extremely reclusive and self-segregating, and eventually all that were left were the tradesmen and urban elites left, all the 'unwashed and inferior Jews having no stake in the game, as it were, the shepherds, farmers, teamsters, and other 'unclean' trades eventually assimilated elsewhere, into to what became the dominant Jewish sect, Christianity, where they were welcome and not regarded as inferior.

It was the wealthier urban Jews who demanded their own 'ghettos', they didn't want to be 'tainted' by the filthy sib-human gentiles. Nowadays the term 'ghetto' has a negative meaning, and it gets spun as those evul xians forcing the poor hapless Jews to live in slums n stuff because they were so mean and bigoted. It's a result of their own bigotry.

Many 'outsiders' had their own 'ghettos' in foreign towns, from the Hansa and Lombards to the Swedish metal traders in London and all the other major trading cities. these latter became crowded over the centuries, and after the Arab conquests, many of them supported by Jewish soldiers and Jewish collaborators in the Spanish cities, most kingdoms and principalities rightly distrusted them and decided it was best to keep them all in one place. Bit only Jews matter to Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox cultists, so naturally they ignored everybody else's history and only care about their own.

Do you have a copy of Joachim Jeremia's excellent economic and social study []bJerusalem In The Time Of Jesus[/b]? If not you should get one.

It makes a lot of what is going on in Jewish culture at the time, the different social classes, 'despised trades', categories of slaves, etc. and a wide assortment of fact about Jewish culture and the divisions therein.


Scan the table of contents and see if any of it interests you. Part IV goes into detail on the 'Racial Purity' laws imposed by the Babylonians when Cyrus set them up as th rulers of the region. They excluded most other Jews from any role other than giving the Babylonians money and food. These 'rules' were a result of Ezra's changing the genealogies to trace Jewishness' through the mother, as many of the Jews that weren't exiled had married non-Jewish women, and these 'rules' effectively excluded them from govt,. and Temple offices to could only go to Babylonians. Needless to say there were probably a lot of forged fakes for those who could afford one.
 
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Judaism, the 'oral Torah' existed in Jesus' day. It was called "the Tradition of the Elders". Jesus condemned the Pharisees use of it.

No, it didn't; pieces that were added to the Talmud later were around. The 'Oral Torah' was just that, transmitted orally, and only to 'real Jews', as determined by the ruling classes, i.e. Babylonians and Pharisees. the Babylonian Talmud wasn't completed until 500 A.D., and was started in the 2nd century A.D. Parts of the Mishnah and Gamarra were around. According to Moses, the Torah was complete as is, and there was no more. There was no 'secret Torah' Moses only handed to Babylonian Jews and nobody else. It's a ridiculous fable.
 
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A sect of real Jews not considered' real Jews' by the rabbinical cultists.


They recently published an English translation of their Torah.


Karaites.



Karaite Judaism or Karaism is a Jewish sect characterized by the recognition of the written Tanakh alone as its supreme authority in halakha (religious law) and theology, and rejection of Rabbinic authority or traditions. Karaites believe that all of the divine commandments which were handed down to Moses by God were recorded in the written Torah without any additional Oral Torah or explanation.

Unlike mainstream Rabbinic Judaism (Talmudic Judaism), which regards the Oral Torah, codified in the Talmud and subsequent works, as authoritative interpretations of the Torah, Karaite Jews do not treat the written collections of the oral tradition in the Midrash or the Talmud as binding.

Karaite interpretation of the Torah strives to adhere to the plain or most obvious meaning (peshat) of the text; this is not necessarily the literal meaning of the text—instead, it is the meaning of the text that would have been naturally understood by the ancient Hebrews when the books of the Torah were first written—without the use of the Oral Torah. By contrast, Rabbinic Judaism relies on the legal rulings of the Sanhedrin as they are codified in the Midrash, Talmud, and other sources to indicate the authentic meaning of the Torah. Karaism holds every interpretation of the Torah to the same scrutiny regardless of its source, and teaches that it is the personal responsibility of every individual Jew to study the Torah, and ultimately to decide personally its correct meaning. Karaites may consider arguments made in the Talmud and other works, but without exalting them above other viewpoints.



This sect was probably Jewish, likely one of the groups known collectively as 'Essenes'.


The latter two groups were forced to live in separate ghettos from the rabbinical cultists because of Orthodox bigotry. As I said earlier they ran off and alienated most other Jews.

There was a lot more variety to Jewish theology and cultures than the Orthodox would have people believe. there was a sort of 'mini-Enlightenment' among Jewish intellectuals in the late 18th and early 19th century where many Jews embraced the greater world and modern science in large numbers, and today there are several more sects around. Less than 15% of Jews are the Haredi, ultra-orthodox and chabad types. Most these days are ethnic and cultural followers of Jewish culture and traditions, and not particularly religiously hard core.
 
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A sect of real Jews not considered' real Jews' by the rabbinical cultists.


They recently published an English translation of their Torah.


Karaites.



Karaite Judaism or Karaism is a Jewish sect characterized by the recognition of the written Tanakh alone as its supreme authority in halakha (religious law) and theology, and rejection of Rabbinic authority or traditions. Karaites believe that all of the divine commandments which were handed down to Moses by God were recorded in the written Torah without any additional Oral Torah or explanation.

Unlike mainstream Rabbinic Judaism (Talmudic Judaism), which regards the Oral Torah, codified in the Talmud and subsequent works, as authoritative interpretations of the Torah, Karaite Jews do not treat the written collections of the oral tradition in the Midrash or the Talmud as binding.

Karaite interpretation of the Torah strives to adhere to the plain or most obvious meaning (peshat) of the text; this is not necessarily the literal meaning of the text—instead, it is the meaning of the text that would have been naturally understood by the ancient Hebrews when the books of the Torah were first written—without the use of the Oral Torah. By contrast, Rabbinic Judaism relies on the legal rulings of the Sanhedrin as they are codified in the Midrash, Talmud, and other sources to indicate the authentic meaning of the Torah. Karaism holds every interpretation of the Torah to the same scrutiny regardless of its source, and teaches that it is the personal responsibility of every individual Jew to study the Torah, and ultimately to decide personally its correct meaning. Karaites may consider arguments made in the Talmud and other works, but without exalting them above other viewpoints.



This sect was probably Jewish, likely one of the groups known collectively as 'Essenes'.


The latter two groups were forced to live in separate ghettos from the rabbinical cultists.

There was a lot more variety to Jewish theology and cultures than the Orthodox would have people believe. there was a sort of 'mini-Enlightenment' among Jewish intellectuals in the late 18th and early 19th century where many Jews embraced the greater world and modern science in large numbers, and today there are several more sects around. Less than 15% of Jews are the Haredi, ultra-orthodox and chabad types. Most these days are ethnic and cultural followers of Jewish culture and traditions, and not particularly religiously hard core.
Karaites today are not exactly as you describe them. They DO believe in oral laws but deny the authority of a single, codified one, so different communities and families have one as established by the Chacham each follows. They certainly do not follow the text literally (or in the supposed obvious meaning) unless you have record of judicial "eyes plucked out for eyes." The theological details are more complicated and subtle than your reductionist summary reflects.
 
Karaites today are not exactly as you describe them. They DO believe in oral laws but deny the authority of a single, codified one, so different communities and families have one as established by the Chacham each follows. They certainly do not follow the text literally (or in the supposed obvious meaning) unless you have record of judicial "eyes plucked out for eyes." The theological details are more complicated and subtle than your reductionist summary reflects.

I write these because I don't intend to write an entire encyclopedia here. People who are interested in every little nuance and regional differences and timelines of course need to read up on this on their own time. My main point is that, as with most other tribes and peoples throughout history, many of their problems are self-inflicted, and it is no different in the case of the Babylonians' racist self-isolating cult fantasies. They did a great job of driving the majority of Jews away. Thankfully the smarter ones finally got around to reforms and moved on.
 
I write these because I don't intend to write an entire encyclopedia here. People who are interested in every little nuance and regional differences and timelines of course need to read up on this on their own time. My main point is that, as with most other tribes and peoples throughout history, many of their problems are self-inflicted, and it is no different in the case of the Babylonians' racist self-isolating cult fantasies.
but accuracy is an element of intellectual honesty and integrity. Reporting content which is inaccurate calls into question the underlying utility of conclusions drawn from it.
 
but accuracy is an element of intellectual honesty and integrity. Reporting content which is inaccurate calls into question the underlying utility of conclusions drawn from it.

You haven't done so. I posted generalities because this isn't an online encyclopedic exegesis, it's a discussion. Nothing I said was 100% false, and neither was it deliberately misleading. I posted links that hold more information and references re the Karaites and you should go and edit the text there if it bothers you.
 
You haven't done so. I posted generalities because this isn't an online encyclopedic exegesis, it's a discussion.
you posted errors
Nothing I said was 100% false
besides, " Rabbinic Judaism relies on the legal rulings of the Sanhedrin as they are codified in the Midrash, Talmud, and other sources to indicate the authentic meaning of the Torah. " because, yeah, 100% wrong.

, and neither was it deliberately misleading. I posted links that hold more information and references re the Karaites and you should go and edit the text there if it bothers you.
I'm just pointing out the errors. I didn't write it nor did I endorse it through reposting. That part is on you. Ask a Karaite about whether he requires that his animal be slaughtered or if it could just be shot in the head. If he says "slaughtered" ask him for a source and a source for HOW.

Good luck.
 
you posted errors

besides, " Rabbinic Judaism relies on the legal rulings of the Sanhedrin as they are codified in the Midrash, Talmud, and other sources to indicate the authentic meaning of the Torah. " because, yeah, 100% wrong.


I'm just pointing out the errors. I didn't write it nor did I endorse it through reposting. That part is on you. Ask a Karaite about whether he requires that his animal be slaughtered or if it could just be shot in the head. If he says "slaughtered" ask him for a source and a source for HOW.

Good luck.

No, you're just annoyed there is info out there you don't like about your cult's flaws, is all. Good luck trying to censor it all by running around implying people are lying unless they consult with you first.
 
but accuracy is an element of intellectual honesty and integrity. Reporting content which is inaccurate calls into question the underlying utility of conclusions drawn from it.

You obviously lack thos elements yourself, deliberately misrpresenting what was said. Making up points to refute is merely talking to yourself.
 
No, you're just annoyed there is info out there you don't like about your cult's flaws, is all. Good luck trying to censor it all by running around implying people are lying unless they consult with you first.
so no defense, just deflect? Understood. I think I know more of my "cult's" flaws than you do. I wasn't arguing any of them. I was simply pointing out factual errors and saying that an argument as a whole is undercut if parts (even ones not essential to the central point) can be falsified. But I guess your way is good too.
 
so no defense, just deflect? Understood. I think I know more of my "cult's" flaws than you do. I wasn't arguing any of them. I was simply pointing out factual errors and saying that an argument as a whole is undercut if parts (even ones not essential to the central point) can be falsified. But I guess your way is good too.

There were no 'factual errors', except in your imagination. Nothing to 'defend'.
 
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There were no 'factual errors', except in your imagination. Nothing to 'defend'.
well, there was the claim I quoted about rabbinic Judaism. And there was the claim about the relationship between Karaites and the biblical, written text. I guess you missed those. I can re-explain them if you would like.
 
well, there was the claim I quoted about rabbinic Judaism. And there was the claim about the relationship between Karaites and the biblical, written text. I guess you missed those. I can re-explain them if you would like.

I guess you never posted anything in rebuttal, just 'cuz I said so!' rubbish. I guess you don't know the difference, because well, you say so.
 
I guess you never posted anything in rebuttal, just 'cuz I said so!' rubbish. I guess you don't know the difference, because well, you say so.
I posted my statements and you replied in post 53. Was I supposed to present some sort of rebuttal to your post #53?

I will try to explain the claim in more detail:
" Rabbinic Judaism relies on the legal rulings of the Sanhedrin as they are codified in the Midrash, Talmud, and other sources to indicate the authentic meaning of the Torah. "
the legal rulings in Judaism are sourced in a huge number of places that have nothing to do with the sanhedrin. None of these legal rulings is codified in the midrash. And many are not in the talmud.

Do you need me to provide even more detail or examples?
 
I posted my statements and you replied in post 53. Was I supposed to present some sort of rebuttal to your post #53?

I will try to explain the claim in more detail:

the legal rulings in Judaism are sourced in a huge number of places that have nothing to do with the sanhedrin. None of these legal rulings is codified in the midrash. And many are not in the talmud.

Do you need me to provide even more detail or examples?

More segues away from what was said by me.
 
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