The Nanking Massacre and Iris Chang's Book The Rape of Nanking

[gipper]

Your point now seems to be ducking and avoiding.

I thought I made my points pretty clear.

The Japanese Empire engaged in a war of Aggression first against China and then the rest of Asia.

They committed truly horrible atrocities on par with what Nazi Germany did in Europe.

They really haven't been nearly as apologetic for it as they should be.

The reason we don't hear more about it is because the Chinese don't run Hollywood and feel the need to remind us every couple of years with a movie like Schindler's List.

When you do get a movie about what a bunch of bastards the Japanese were in WWII, it's usually told from the perspective of white people being slightly inconvenienced.

When do you think the US government will apologize for it’s many war crimes? For instance, like massive bombing raids on defenseless innocent Japanese and German civilians during WWII.

Our criminal government continues to mass murder civilians today. Yet you cheer them on but if a white LEO kills one black man, you have a conniption. Third grade logic of the duped statist.

US drone strike intended for Isis hideout kills 30 pine nut workers in Afghanistan

 

[JoeB131]

When do you think the US government will apologize for it’s many war crimes? For instance, like massive bombing raids on defenseless innocent Japanese and German civilians during WWII.

You mean on industrial centers of fascist states that were engaging in wars of aggression. We should be proud of that. They thanked us later.

Our criminal government continues to mass murder civilians today.

And here's the crazy coming out.

Yet you cheer them on but if a white LEO kills one black man, you have a conniption. Third grade logic of the duped statist.

Um, yeah, I have a real problem when an American Citizen is executed for no good reason. I have no problem with a cop shooting a Second Amendment enthusiast who waived a gun at him... it's when they shoot unarmed kids I have an issue.

US drone strike intended for Isis hideout kills 30 pine nut workers in Afghanistan

Kind of their own fault for harboring ISIS.. You'd think after 40 years of war, they'd be tired of it. But they'll do this whether we are there or not.

 

[gipper]

When do you think the US government will apologize for it’s many war crimes? For instance, like massive bombing raids on defenseless innocent Japanese and German civilians during WWII.

You mean on industrial centers of fascist states that were engaging in wars of aggression. We should be proud of that. They thanked us later.

Our criminal government continues to mass murder civilians today.

And here's the crazy coming out.

Yet you cheer them on but if a white LEO kills one black man, you have a conniption. Third grade logic of the duped statist.

Um, yeah, I have a real problem when an American Citizen is executed for no good reason. I have no problem with a cop shooting a Second Amendment enthusiast who waived a gun at him... it's when they shoot unarmed kids I have an issue.

US drone strike intended for Isis hideout kills 30 pine nut workers in Afghanistan

Kind of their own fault for harboring ISIS.. You'd think after 40 years of war, they'd be tired of it. But they'll do this whether we are there or not.

LOL. The bombings of Germany and Japan killed massive numbers of civilians, yet you think all those cities were industrial centers. Can’t fix stupid.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-German-Nanking-Diaries-John/dp/0349111413&tag=?tag=usmb-20

In 1937, as the invading Japanese Army closed on Nanking, then the capital of China, all foreigners were ordered to evacuate. One man, a mild 55-year-old German named John Rabe who ran the local Siemens factory, refused on the grounds that it would show a bad example to his Chinese workers. Sending his wife and family to safety, he watched in horror as the Japanese began to wipe out the population. Hastily contacting the tiny remaining community of foreigners, and using the flimsy authority of a pact Hitler had made with the Japanese, Rabe spent months safeguarding and providing refuge for thousands of Chinese, often interposing himself physically between the executioners and their victims. It is estimated that he saved between 250,000 and 300,000 lives by his efforts. And every night, he would write up his diary of these extraordinary events.

This is an excellent eye witness account of the events told from the perspective of a Japanese ally. It shows the complete breakdown of order in Nanking and is quite horrific. It happened, just like the holocaust, and quibbling over the numbers seems to me to be a pointless exercise.

By the way Rabe was a nazi member.

 

[Unkotare]

..They thanked us later.

..

You are not only ignorant of history, you are also morally bankrupt.

 

[Vandalshandle]

If FDR pushed Japan into a war with the US, one can not help but wonder what these countries did to force Japan to invade them:
Philippines
China
Mongolia
Indo China
Vietnam
Cambodia
Laos
Malaysia
Singapore
Hong Kong
East Indies
Timor
Burma
Guinea
Gilbert Islands
Manchuria
Taiwan
Korea
Marshall Islands

 

[mikegriffith1]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-German-Nanking-Diaries-John/dp/0349111413&tag=?tag=usmb-20

In 1937, as the invading Japanese Army closed on Nanking, then the capital of China, all foreigners were ordered to evacuate. One man, a mild 55-year-old German named John Rabe who ran the local Siemens factory, refused on the grounds that it would show a bad example to his Chinese workers. Sending his wife and family to safety, he watched in horror as the Japanese began to wipe out the population. Hastily contacting the tiny remaining community of foreigners, and using the flimsy authority of a pact Hitler had made with the Japanese, Rabe spent months safeguarding and providing refuge for thousands of Chinese, often interposing himself physically between the executioners and their victims. It is estimated that he saved between 250,000 and 300,000 lives by his efforts. And every night, he would write up his diary of these extraordinary events.

This is an excellent eye witness account of the events told from the perspective of a Japanese ally. It shows the complete breakdown of order in Nanking and is quite horrific. It happened, just like the holocaust, and quibbling over the numbers seems to me to be a pointless exercise.

By the way Rabe was a nazi member.

I take it you didn't read the OP. There were only about 200,000 people in Nanking when the Japanese arrived, so they could not have killed 250,000 to 300,000. The burial records don't support anything even close to that number. Etc., etc., etc.

You're quoting from Rabe's later account. In his initial reports to his government, he put the figure at a much lower number.

 

[JoeB131]

LOL. The bombings of Germany and Japan killed massive numbers of civilians, yet you think all those cities were industrial centers. Can’t fix stupid.

Germany and Japan were industrialized states... Um, duh.

You are not only ignorant of history, you are also morally bankrupt.

Not at all. We could have done to Japan what Russia did to East Germany, which was rape every woman old enough to bleed and take everything that wasn't nailed down.

Instead.. we rebuilt their country, sent over specialists to show them how to run their government and industry. (Ironically making theirs more efficient than ours.... )

Name another country that would do that for an enemy that - again- snuck attack them, and committed horrible atrocities.

 

[Unkotare]

LOL. The bombings of Germany and Japan killed massive numbers of civilians, yet you think all those cities were industrial centers. Can’t fix stupid.

Germany and Japan were industrialized states... Um, duh.

You are not only ignorant of history, you are also morally bankrupt.

Not at all. We could have done to Japan what Russia did to East Germany, which was rape every woman old enough to bleed and take everything that wasn't nailed down. .....

I hold America to a higher standard than some morally bankrupt, wannabe communist.

 

[mikegriffith1]

If FDR pushed Japan into a war with the US, one can not help but wonder what these countries did to force Japan to invade them:
Philippines
China
Mongolia
Indo China
Vietnam
Cambodia
Laos
Malaysia
Singapore
Hong Kong
East Indies
Timor
Burma
Guinea
Gilbert Islands
Manchuria
Taiwan
Korea
Marshall Islands

This is just silly. You're mixing apples and oranges and bricks. Korea and Taiwan were ceded to Japan by treaty long before FDR came along. By the way, we killed about 50 times more Filipinos when we consolidated our rule in the Philippines than the Japanese did when they consolidated their rule in Korea and Taiwan (200,000 vs. 4,000), if you care to know. Japan only moved into several of the nations on your list because FDR cut off Japan's supply of oil and raw materials. Before moving into the Dutch East Indies, Japan tried to buy oil from the Dutch, but they were in league with FDR and refused. Japan's move into Vietnam was done with the permission of the French government. "Manchuria"? Gosh, do you have any clue about the history of Japan and Russia in Manchuria and the perfectly valid reasons that Japan moved into Manchuria? "Mongolia"?! Uh, you realize that the Soviets controlled most of Mongolia, and that Japan moved into Manchuria in large part to counter the Soviet move into Mongolia, right? Let me guess: You haven't heard about any of these facts of history.

"China"?! What "China"? You mean the warlord-run and warlord-war-torn area that the Nationalists and Communists each claimed as theirs but which neither controlled? Do you know that Japan had treaty rights in China, that Japanese immigrants were the largest group of foreigners in China, and that it was the Nationalists who broke the truce and began the Sino-Japanese War in 1937? Do you know that Japan repeatedly offered very generous, fair peace terms to the Nationalists but that FDR kept pressuring them not to make peace with Japan?

The fact that FDR provoked Japan to war with the U.S. is beyond dispute. If anything, Japan showed considerable patience in response to FDR's provocations and only resorted to force after months of negotiations had made it clear that FDR was determined to force Japan to either fight or collapse.

A few replies ago, I provided a list of scholarly books that provide a much more complete picture, a much balanced picture, of Japan's moves in Asia. You might break down and read one or two of them.

 

[Unkotare]

[......

Instead.. we rebuilt their country, sent over specialists to show them how to run their government and industry. (Ironically making theirs more efficient than ours.... )

Name another country that would do that for an enemy that - again- snuck attack them, and committed horrible atrocities.

We 'helped' them rebuild in order to have a trade partner for OUR OWN INTERESTS in Asia and to have a physical and political barrier to the communist forces fdr had worked so hard to empower engulfing all of Asia and beyond.

As for "how to run," you should study some history some time. Ask someone who knows ANYTHING about World History about the Meiji Restoration and an example of perhaps the fastest and most remarkable development and modernization in any country.

 

[Vandalshandle]

If FDR pushed Japan into a war with the US, one can not help but wonder what these countries did to force Japan to invade them:
Philippines
China
Mongolia
Indo China
Vietnam
Cambodia
Laos
Malaysia
Singapore
Hong Kong
East Indies
Timor
Burma
Guinea
Gilbert Islands
Manchuria
Taiwan
Korea
Marshall Islands

This is just silly. You're mixing apples and oranges and bricks. Korea and Taiwan were ceded to Japan by treaty long before FDR came along. By the way, we killed about 50 times more Filipinos when we consolidated our rule in the Philippines than the Japanese did when they consolidated their rule in Korea and Taiwan (200,000 vs. 4,000), if you care to know. Japan only moved into several of the nations on your list because FDR cut off Japan's supply of oil and raw materials. Before moving into the Dutch East Indies, Japan tried to buy oil from the Dutch, but they were in league with FDR and refused. Japan's move into Vietnam was done with the permission of the French government. "Manchuria"? Gosh, do you have any clue about the history of Japan and Russia in Manchuria and the perfectly valid reasons that Japan moved into Manchuria? "Mongolia"?! Uh, you realize that the Soviets controlled most of Mongolia, and that Japan moved into Manchuria in large part to counter the Soviet move into Mongolia, right? Let me guess: You haven't heard about any of these facts of history.

"China"?! What "China"? You mean the warlord-run and warlord-war-torn area that the Nationalists and Communists each claimed as theirs but which neither controlled? Do you know that Japan had treaty rights in China, that Japanese immigrants were the largest group of foreigners in China, and that it was the Nationalists who broke the truce and began the Sino-Japanese War in 1937? Do you know that Japan repeatedly offered very generous, fair peace terms to the Nationalists but that FDR kept pressuring them not to make peace with Japan?

The fact that FDR provoked Japan to war with the U.S. is beyond dispute. If anything, Japan showed considerable patience in response to FDR's provocations and only resorted to force after months of negotiations had made it clear that FDR was determined to force Japan to either fight or collapse.

A few replies ago, I provided a list of scholarly books that provide a much more complete picture, a much balanced picture, of Japan's moves in Asia. You might break down and read one or two of them.

Once again, the Japanese military government were just a bunch of really nice guys who occupied every Asia country in their efforts to bring the blessings of military dictatorship to their neighbors, but they were misunderstood. For example, the Korean "comfort girls" who were prostitute slaves were really volunteers who just liked sex a lot.



Don't give up your day job to become a historian, Mike.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Once again, the Japanese military government were just a bunch of really nice guys who occupied every Asia country in their efforts to bring the blessings of military dictatorship to their neighbors, but they were misunderstood.

You're not even addressing my arguments. You just keep repeating the Chinese-Communist portrayal of WWII-era Japan.

Just FYI, in the unlikely event that you care about facts, Korea was about to get representation in Japan's legislature, the Diet. Koreans living in Japan could vote. There were Koreans who ran for office in Japan. Tens of thousands of Koreans actually volunteered to serve in the Japanese army, and some of them became officers and commanded Japanese troops. Hundreds of Korean soldiers in the Japanese army received citations for bravery, and some of them are honored at Japan's Yasukuni Shrine, which is Japan's version of our Arlington Cemetery.

Just curious: Do you think North Korea and North Vietnam were better off after the anti-Communist, pro-capitalist Japanese were forced to leave and the Communists took over?

For example, the Korean "comfort girls" who were prostitute slaves were really volunteers who just liked sex a lot.

This subject has already been covered earlier in this thread. Some of the comfort women did in fact volunteer and were in fact paid, but many were not, and that was clearly wrong, as I've already said. Now, if you excoriate Japan over the comfort women, are you equally as hard on the Soviet Union over the fact that Soviet soldiers raped millions of women as the Soviet army made its away across Eastern Europe?

 

[JoeB131]

We 'helped' them rebuild in order to have a trade partner for OUR OWN INTERESTS in Asia and to have a physical and political barrier to the communist forces fdr had worked so hard to empower engulfing all of Asia and beyond.

As for "how to run," you should study some history some time. Ask someone who knows ANYTHING about World History about the Meiji Restoration and an example of perhaps the fastest and most remarkable development and modernization in any country.

The Meiji Restoration led to a dictatorship within decades, it's nothing to be proud of.

We rebuilt them because we were decent people... a concept you don't seem to get. It was better than they deserved.

 

[JoeB131]

Just FYI, in the unlikely event that you care about facts, Korea was about to get representation in Japan's legislature, the Diet.

So what? The Diet was kind of meaningless, as Japan was a military dictatorship at that point.

Hundreds of Korean soldiers in the Japanese army received citations for bravery, and some of them are honored at Japan's Yasukuni Shrine, which is Japan's version of our Arlington Cemetery.

You know who else is honored? Tojo and the rest of the war criminals.

This subject has already been covered earlier in this thread. Some of the comfort women did in fact volunteer and were in fact paid, but many were not, and that was clearly wrong, as I've already said. Now, if you excoriate Japan over the comfort women, are you equally as hard on the Soviet Union over the fact that Soviet soldiers raped millions of women as the Soviet army made its away across Eastern Europe?

YOu mean they raped GERMAN women after Germans and their allies had inflicted millions of casualties.

Should be pointed out that of the countries occuppied by the USSR after WWII, Five of them (Germany, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary) all joined the Axis.

 

[gipper]

If FDR pushed Japan into a war with the US, one can not help but wonder what these countries did to force Japan to invade them:
Philippines
China
Mongolia
Indo China
Vietnam
Cambodia
Laos
Malaysia
Singapore
Hong Kong
East Indies
Timor
Burma
Guinea
Gilbert Islands
Manchuria
Taiwan
Korea
Marshall Islands

This is just silly. You're mixing apples and oranges and bricks. Korea and Taiwan were ceded to Japan by treaty long before FDR came along. By the way, we killed about 50 times more Filipinos when we consolidated our rule in the Philippines than the Japanese did when they consolidated their rule in Korea and Taiwan (200,000 vs. 4,000), if you care to know. Japan only moved into several of the nations on your list because FDR cut off Japan's supply of oil and raw materials. Before moving into the Dutch East Indies, Japan tried to buy oil from the Dutch, but they were in league with FDR and refused. Japan's move into Vietnam was done with the permission of the French government. "Manchuria"? Gosh, do you have any clue about the history of Japan and Russia in Manchuria and the perfectly valid reasons that Japan moved into Manchuria? "Mongolia"?! Uh, you realize that the Soviets controlled most of Mongolia, and that Japan moved into Manchuria in large part to counter the Soviet move into Mongolia, right? Let me guess: You haven't heard about any of these facts of history.

"China"?! What "China"? You mean the warlord-run and warlord-war-torn area that the Nationalists and Communists each claimed as theirs but which neither controlled? Do you know that Japan had treaty rights in China, that Japanese immigrants were the largest group of foreigners in China, and that it was the Nationalists who broke the truce and began the Sino-Japanese War in 1937? Do you know that Japan repeatedly offered very generous, fair peace terms to the Nationalists but that FDR kept pressuring them not to make peace with Japan?

The fact that FDR provoked Japan to war with the U.S. is beyond dispute. If anything, Japan showed considerable patience in response to FDR's provocations and only resorted to force after months of negotiations had made it clear that FDR was determined to force Japan to either fight or collapse.

A few replies ago, I provided a list of scholarly books that provide a much more complete picture, a much balanced picture, of Japan's moves in Asia. You might break down and read one or two of them.

Once again, the Japanese military government were just a bunch of really nice guys who occupied every Asia country in their efforts to bring the blessings of military dictatorship to their neighbors, but they were misunderstood. For example, the Korean "comfort girls" who were prostitute slaves were really volunteers who just liked sex a lot.



Don't give up your day job to become a historian, Mike.

So your argument must be since the Japanese military was so awful, the US government was justified in committing acts even more awful.

Third grade logic.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-German-Nanking-Diaries-John/dp/0349111413&tag=?tag=usmb-20

In 1937, as the invading Japanese Army closed on Nanking, then the capital of China, all foreigners were ordered to evacuate. One man, a mild 55-year-old German named John Rabe who ran the local Siemens factory, refused on the grounds that it would show a bad example to his Chinese workers. Sending his wife and family to safety, he watched in horror as the Japanese began to wipe out the population. Hastily contacting the tiny remaining community of foreigners, and using the flimsy authority of a pact Hitler had made with the Japanese, Rabe spent months safeguarding and providing refuge for thousands of Chinese, often interposing himself physically between the executioners and their victims. It is estimated that he saved between 250,000 and 300,000 lives by his efforts. And every night, he would write up his diary of these extraordinary events.

This is an excellent eye witness account of the events told from the perspective of a Japanese ally. It shows the complete breakdown of order in Nanking and is quite horrific. It happened, just like the holocaust, and quibbling over the numbers seems to me to be a pointless exercise.

By the way Rabe was a nazi member.

I take it you didn't read the OP. There were only about 200,000 people in Nanking when the Japanese arrived, so they could not have killed 250,000 to 300,000. The burial records don't support anything even close to that number. Etc., etc., etc.

You're quoting from Rabe's later account. In his initial reports to his government, he put the figure at a much lower number.

Im quoting the publishers promo note. I dont think Rabe makes a claim about numbers in his book. However he does give a first hand account of what happened. To me that clearly shows a war crime was taking place.

Quibbling over the numbers seems to be a pointless exercise.At what point does it stop being an atrocity ?

 

[Unkotare]

We 'helped' them rebuild in order to have a trade partner for OUR OWN INTERESTS in Asia and to have a physical and political barrier to the communist forces fdr had worked so hard to empower engulfing all of Asia and beyond.

As for "how to run," you should study some history some time. Ask someone who knows ANYTHING about World History about the Meiji Restoration and an example of perhaps the fastest and most remarkable development and modernization in any country.

The Meiji Restoration led to a dictatorship within decades, it's nothing to be proud of.

.....

You have never studied anything about it. Don’t repeat the lie that you have a degree in History ever again. You clearly have no knowledge or interest in the subject.

 

[Unkotare]

We 'helped' them rebuild in order to have a trade partner for OUR OWN INTERESTS in Asia and to have a physical and political barrier to the communist forces fdr had worked so hard to empower engulfing all of Asia and beyond.

As for "how to run," you should study some history some time. Ask someone who knows ANYTHING about World History about the Meiji Restoration and an example of perhaps the fastest and most remarkable development and modernization in any country.

...

We rebuilt them because we were decent people... ....

Oh sure, that’s why we needlessly incinerated hundreds of thousands of women and children in atomic horror; because we cared so much about them.

 

[gipper]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-German-Nanking-Diaries-John/dp/0349111413&tag=?tag=usmb-20

In 1937, as the invading Japanese Army closed on Nanking, then the capital of China, all foreigners were ordered to evacuate. One man, a mild 55-year-old German named John Rabe who ran the local Siemens factory, refused on the grounds that it would show a bad example to his Chinese workers. Sending his wife and family to safety, he watched in horror as the Japanese began to wipe out the population. Hastily contacting the tiny remaining community of foreigners, and using the flimsy authority of a pact Hitler had made with the Japanese, Rabe spent months safeguarding and providing refuge for thousands of Chinese, often interposing himself physically between the executioners and their victims. It is estimated that he saved between 250,000 and 300,000 lives by his efforts. And every night, he would write up his diary of these extraordinary events.

This is an excellent eye witness account of the events told from the perspective of a Japanese ally. It shows the complete breakdown of order in Nanking and is quite horrific. It happened, just like the holocaust, and quibbling over the numbers seems to me to be a pointless exercise.

By the way Rabe was a nazi member.

I take it you didn't read the OP. There were only about 200,000 people in Nanking when the Japanese arrived, so they could not have killed 250,000 to 300,000. The burial records don't support anything even close to that number. Etc., etc., etc.

You're quoting from Rabe's later account. In his initial reports to his government, he put the figure at a much lower number.

Im quoting the publishers promo note. I dont think Rabe makes a claim about numbers in his book. However he does give a first hand account of what happened. To me that clearly shows a war crime was taking place.

Quibbling over the numbers seems to be a pointless exercise.At what point does it stop being an atrocity ?

Okay. Agreed. It was a war crime.

Now simple question for all you statists. If what the Japanese did at Nanking was a war crime, how is it that the ruthless aerial bombardment of German and Japanese defenseless civilians NOT A WAR CRIME?

Please provide concise logical explanations.