The Logical, Rational, and Reasonable Debate About Religion: No Insults Allowed Threa

[Coloradomtnman]

The title says it all, so, please refrain from name calling, disrespect, or insults of any kind.

Also, since this debate is framed as logical and rational, please understand that supporting your arguments with anecdotal evidence is not reasonable, convincing, or conclusive and will and should just be ignored.

Let me just kick it off with: There is no physical evidence of God. Intelligent Design has been debunked. The only proof that supports the Bible is historical. And since, if He exists, He bestowed to me the ability to think, to make logical conclusions, to be rational, to reason, and free will with which to choose, then, honestly, why would I choose (if one can claim that it IS a choice) to believe in Him when there is nothing conclusive to support His existence?

 

[Tinktink]

I just have one question, how can anyone have a logic, Rational debate on something that can't be proved or disproved locigally or rationally. No offense intended with that question by the way.

Science can't disprove belief to a believer. Believers can't prove belief to science.

Now that being said, there is no physical evidence Love exsists, but millions of people will die defending it. I think faith is a matter of heart, not a matter of science, logic and rational, therefore no more proveable then Love, but just as real and defendable to those that believe in it. Just my opinion.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I just have one question, how can anyone have a logic, Rational debate on something that can't be proved or disproved locigally or rationally. No offense intended with that question by the way.

Science can't disprove belief to a believer. Believers can't prove belief to science.

Now that being said, there is no physical evidence Love exsists, but millions of people will die defending it. I think faith is a matter of heart, not a matter of science, logic and rational, therefore no more proveable then Love, but just as real and defendable to those that believe in it. Just my opinion.

A valid point.

However, based upon the Christian philosophy that God endowed us with free will and with that free will we should choose to believe in God through Jesus Christ, and that since we were created by God and embued with the powers of reason and rational thought, why would one 'choose' to believe in something that can't be proven to be factual or real? It isn't reasonable to believe in everything the heart and imagination comes up with and maintain a perception of reality that is as closely aligned with truth as humans can attempt to attain and understand.

 

[RodISHI]

God is a spirit. Can you measure a spirit?

If you cannot understand that concept then you cannot understand why others believe, what they have seen or experienced. Why debate it? One either believes or does not believe. Simple.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

God is a spirit. Can you measure a spirit?

If you cannot understand that concept then you cannot understand why others believe, what they have seen or experienced. Why debate it? One either believes or does not believe. Simple.

I think you're right about that, RodISHI. But I am having trouble reconciling something and perhaps you can explain it for me:

If I don't believe, and its not a matter of choice, as is implied by your statement above and bolded, (so its not that I don't want to believe so much as I can't believe - which is the truth from my perspective) then will I go to Hell if it turns out that God does exist? And doesn't that contradict the "free will" philosophy of Christianity and the purpose of Christ's sacrifice?

 

[Big Black Dog]

Belief in God is based solely on faith. There is no "physical" evidence that you can lay your hand on to prove that God exists. You have to take Him on faith. I agree that you cannot "prove" that God exists BUT can you prove that God does not exist solely on your word alone? You can neither prove or disprove the existance of God. It's all based on faith.

 

[RodISHI]

God is a spirit. Can you measure a spirit?

If you cannot understand that concept then you cannot understand why others believe, what they have seen or experienced. Why debate it? One either believes or does not believe. Simple.

I think you're right about that, RodISHI. But I am having trouble reconciling something and perhaps you can explain it for me:

If I don't believe, and its not a matter of choice, as is implied by your statement above and bolded, (so its not that I don't want to believe so much as I can't believe - which is the truth from my perspective) then will I go to Hell if it turns out that God does exist? And doesn't that contradict the "free will" philosophy of Christianity and the purpose of Christ's sacrifice?

first. Do you understand what hell is?

 

[Tinktink]

I just have one question, how can anyone have a logic, Rational debate on something that can't be proved or disproved locigally or rationally. No offense intended with that question by the way.

Science can't disprove belief to a believer. Believers can't prove belief to science.

Now that being said, there is no physical evidence Love exsists, but millions of people will die defending it. I think faith is a matter of heart, not a matter of science, logic and rational, therefore no more proveable then Love, but just as real and defendable to those that believe in it. Just my opinion.

A valid point.

However, based upon the Christian philosophy that God endowed us with free will and with that free will we should choose to believe in God through Jesus Christ, and that since we were created by God and embued with the powers of reason and rational thought, why would one 'choose' to believe in something that can't be proven to be factual or real? It isn't reasonable to believe in everything the heart and imagination comes up with and maintain a perception of reality that is as closely aligned with truth as humans can attempt to attain and understand.

Good question. I can't answer that, as I am not religious, and would be curious to hear what has to be said regarding it. In God's endowment of folks, didn't God also gift man with imagination? And wouldn't that choice to believe in God be based on that?

 

[Tinktink]

God is a spirit. Can you measure a spirit?

If you cannot understand that concept then you cannot understand why others believe, what they have seen or experienced. Why debate it? One either believes or does not believe. Simple.

I think you're right about that, RodISHI. But I am having trouble reconciling something and perhaps you can explain it for me:

If I don't believe, and its not a matter of choice, as is implied by your statement above and bolded, (so its not that I don't want to believe so much as I can't believe - which is the truth from my perspective) then will I go to Hell if it turns out that God does exist? And doesn't that contradict the "free will" philosophy of Christianity and the purpose of Christ's sacrifice?

Good point, Colo. If God gives free will, why would God punish someone for using it to not believe. I get your debate now. Doesn't sound logical to claim free will is given, when in reality it isn't.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Belief in God is based solely on faith. There is no "physical" evidence that you can lay your hand on to prove that God exists. You have to take Him on faith. I agree that you cannot "prove" that God exists BUT can you prove that God does not exist solely on your word alone? You can neither prove or disprove the existance of God. It's all based on faith.

It is not reasonable to prove that something "doesn't exist"; were I to attempt to prove that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, I would have as much success as proving that Allah, Sri Krsna, Zeus, and Zoraster don't exist. It doesn't make sense to prove something "doesn't exist".

About faith: why would I choose to have faith in God? Why would I choose the Christian god over the Muslim or Hindu, or any other gods? And how does one choose to have faith?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

first. Do you understand what hell is?

I'm not sure. I was taught that it is the realm of Satan, fire and brimstone and all that, where one feels as though s/he is burning alive for all eternity with no second chance at redemption. I think this is the popular version of Hell.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Good question. I can't answer that, as I am not religious, and would be curious to hear what has to be said regarding it. In God's endowment of folks, didn't God also gift man with imagination? And wouldn't that choice to believe in God be based on that?

I don't think I understand exactly what you mean. Maybe I have an idea, but could you expound on that?

 

[RodISHI]

The Bible in the Old Testament is very specific on what hell is. It is separation from God.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

The Bible in the Old Testament is very specific on what hell is. It is separation from God.

By that definition could it be said that I, as a non-believer, am already in Hell? And if that is so, then what incentive do I have to put my faith in Jesus Christ if I don't have faith in Him now?

 

[Tinktink]

Good question. I can't answer that, as I am not religious, and would be curious to hear what has to be said regarding it. In God's endowment of folks, didn't God also gift man with imagination? And wouldn't that choice to believe in God be based on that?

I don't think I understand exactly what you mean. Maybe I have an idea, but could you expound on that?

Well you explained God's free will as being based on Reason and rational. If man only had that endowed to them, then of course you would be right in ascertaining that it is illogical for them to believe in God because there is no rational or logical proof there is one. But if man were also given imagination, then it wouldn't it make it more logical that folks would believe in God?

I don't know if I am making sense. Probably not. But don't know how to wite my thoughts more clearly.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Well you explained God's free will as being based on Reason and rational. If man only had that endowed to them, then of course you would be right in ascertaining that it is illogical for them to believe in God because there is no rational or logical proof there is one. But if man were also given imagination, then it wouldn't it make it more logical that folks would believe in God?

I don't know if I am making sense. Probably not. But don't know how to wite my thoughts more clearly.

Sorry, I'm not getting your gist. Don't think about it for a while and then come back and see if you can't better articulate what you mean. Works for me sometimes.

 

[Tinktink]

Well you explained God's free will as being based on Reason and rational. If man only had that endowed to them, then of course you would be right in ascertaining that it is illogical for them to believe in God because there is no rational or logical proof there is one. But if man were also given imagination, then it wouldn't it make it more logical that folks would believe in God?

I don't know if I am making sense. Probably not. But don't know how to wite my thoughts more clearly.

Sorry, I'm not getting your gist. Don't think about it for a while and then come back and see if you can't better articulate what you mean. Works for me sometimes.

Yes, good idea.

 

[RodISHI]

The Bible in the Old Testament is very specific on what hell is. It is separation from God.

By that definition could it be said that I, as a non-believer, am already in Hell? And if that is so, then what incentive do I have to put my faith in Jesus Christ if I don't have faith in Him now?

First I think it would be helpful if you understand that Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Since God is a spirit then one needs to understand that there is a spirit that speaks and teaches about God. A soul can be in hell and the person can be outside the gate. The flesh is where we live in this world which is God's garden. The soul is created in heaven.


Living outside the gate. It is a different from a soul being in hell.


The incentive is to be born of the spirit.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

First I think it would be helpful if you understand that Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Since God is a spirit then one needs to understand that there is a spirit that speaks and teaches about God. A soul can be in hell and the person can be outside the gate. The flesh is where we live in this world which is God's garden. The soul is created in heaven.

Living outside the gate. It is a different from a soul being in hell.

The incentive is to be born of the spirit.

Sorry, RodISHI, but that doesn't really explain anything. All you did in this post is state what you perceive as facts, which can't be supported with evidece as in:

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Since God is a spirit then one needs to understand that there is a spirit that speaks and teaches about God. A soul can be in hell and the person can be outside the gate. The flesh is where we live in this world which is God's garden. The soul is created in heaven.

You haven't really put forth a viable argument. And, I think, to understand what you mean, one would already have to believe. Why would I choose to believe your argument when I don't already believe your argument?

This may be critical but isn't meant to be offensive. It is simply a statement of my perception of your response from a rational point of view.

 

[RodISHI]

You asked questions and I answered them. You can accept those or not. I have no need to debate you on this issue.