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Bah humbugThe Romans celebrated the birth of Christ but could never conquer the Celtic tribes so around the 3rd or 4th century, the Roman Catholic influence in Great Britain absorbed the Celtic culture and traditions of the Winter Solstice including mistletoe and holly decorations in order to convert the wild rabble to Christianity.
The Romans celebrated the birth of Christ but could never conquer the Celtic tribes so around the 3rd or 4th century, the Roman Catholic influence in Great Britain absorbed the Celtic culture and traditions of the Winter Solstice including mistletoe and holly decorations in order to convert the wild rabble to Christianity.
A Celtic expression. You make my case.
Ireland was part of Great Britain. The Germanic pagan and Irish Pagan traditions were absorbed into the Catholic Church's base in Rome in order to make it easier to convert the rabble.First, the Celtic Irish, by definition, live in Ireland, not Great Britain.
Second, by the time Christianity got there, the island was a mix of Celtic, Roman, and Anglo-Saxon society.
Third, Christmas also includes a good amount of Germanic pagan influence, not to mention various versions of St. Nicholas, who was Greek.
Fourth, much (if not most) of the other traditions were added over the 1500 years to so since. Here in the US, we can probably thank Washington Irving for most of it.
Was this thread just a setup to try to tar and feather FDR's administration? It seems like the long way around.
When I walked into the Coliseum the first object I saw in the interior was a massive steel cross. It was a symbol to me of what you've said here. That floor had absorbed the blood of countless Christians and became the symbol of oppression against Christ's followers but within a couple of generations, Rome itself fell to the ideology. Sure, it was a corrupted form of worship but the killing of Christ's followers has always, only ever strengthened the church.It only made Christianity stronger.
Ireland is part of the British Isles. Great Britain is the name of the island which today encompasses Scotland, England, and Wales. Ireland is its own island, off to the west.Ireland was part of Great Britain. The Germanic pagan and Irish Pagan traditions were absorbed into the Catholic Church's base in Rome in order to make it easier to convert the rabble.
Would you mind providing a link to that? I'd be interested in reading it.Actually, research indicates that Christ was born on December 25th.
Would you mind providing a link to that? I'd be interested in reading it.
The Romans celebrated the birth of Christ but could never conquer the Celtic tribes so around the 3rd or 4th century, the Roman Catholic influence in Great Britain absorbed the Celtic culture and traditions of the Winter Solstice including mistletoe and holly decorations in order to convert the wild rabble to Christianity.
www.history.com
Saved it, did you?The link no lnger works. Here is the article.
Jesus Christ was born on December 25, 1 BC.by Robert A. SungenisWe have been told by source critical scholars that Jesus was probably born in 6 BC, or possibly even earlier. This was based on the information provided by Flavius Josephus that Herod died in 4 B.C. Since Herod slaughtered the infants two years old and younger, this may lead one to conjecture that the birth of Christ took place in 5 B.C. or 6 B.C.The works of Josephus that are of interest to us are The Jewish War and The Jewish Antiquities, since they address the period between 170 BC and 70 AD. Although most scholars have put complete trust in Josephus, his works contain many errors and discrepancies. Either these were due to Josephus himself, or the fact that by the Middle Ages there existed a dozen or so manuscripts of his writings, each differing significantly from the others. In fact, one account of Josephus in Grande Encyclopédie, by Ladmirault (Paris 1893) says Josephus was “boastful, proud and pretentious; one who falsified history to his own advantage and whose treatment of events is often inadequate.” Various critical editions of Josephus have been issued since, e.g., Niese, 1881; Reinach 1902-1932. Reinach adds glosses to Josephus accounts such as “this is a mistake” or “in another book...the figures are different...”1Thanks to the work of Hugues de Nanteuil, we have found that the modern critics are wrong. Little known (or advertised by modern scholars) is that Josephus had two different dates for the death of Herod, and the interpretation of the source containing 4 B.C. is highly debatable. In Herod’s other work, he says Herod died in 7 or 8 BC.Conversely, in the year 532 the monk Dionysius the Little stated that Christ was born on December 25, 1 BC. He had also established that 1 AD corresponded to the 754th year of the foundation of Rome.In order to understand this dating system, we need to go back to the pre-Christian era. In that era there were two dating systems:(1) A dating system based on the dates of the reigning monarch. In this realm, the foundation date is 753 BC, which is the foundation date of Rome under the auspices of Romulus. The Romans titled this foundation date as “urbe condita” (meaning: “from the foundation of the city”). Their year began on April 21st and they had 355 days in their calendar. This inaccurate calendar remained in force until the time of Julius Caesar who in 46 BC, upon the tutelage of the Greek astronomer Sisogenes, increased the number of days in 46 BC to 445, and thereafter (45 BC and onward) there would be 365.25 days in the year and the year would begin on January 1st.(2) A dating system based on the dates of significant events. In this realm, the commencement of the Olympic games in 776 BC is the foundation date. Every four years, the Greeks would record the date of the games or “Olympiads,” and the event was abbreviated “OL.” As Augustine states:“Anything, then, that we learn from history about the chronology of past times assists us very much in understanding the Scriptures, even if it be learnt without the pale of the Church as a matter of childish instruction. For we frequently seek information about a variety of matters by use of the Olympiads, and the names of the consuls; and ignorance of the consulship in which our Lord was born, and that in which He suffered, has led some into the error of supposing that He was forty-six years of age when He suffered, that being the number of years He was told by the Jews the temple (which He took as a symbol of His body) was in building. Now we know on the authority of the evangelist that He was about thirty years of age when He was baptized; But the number of years He lived afterwards, although by putting His actions together we can make it out, yet that no shadow of doubt might arise from another source, can be ascertained more clearly and more certainly from a comparison of profane history with the gospel” (On Christian Doctrine, 2, 28, 42)Each segment of four years was begun on the first full moon of summer. We also see some other Church Fathers use the Olympic calendar. Below is Cyril of Jerusalem’s dating of the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 using the Olympic calendar. Cyril of Jerusalem writes:“From the going forth of the word for making answer, and for the building of Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince are seven weeks and three score and two weeks. Now three score and nine weeks of years contain four hundred and eighty-three years. He said, therefore, that after the building of Jerusalem, four hundred and eighty-three years having passed, and the rulers having failed, then cometh a certain king of another race, in whose time the Christ is to be born. Now Darius the Mede built the city in the sixth year of his own reign, and first year of the 66th Olympiad according to the Greeks. Olympiad is the name among the Greeks of the games celebrated after four years, because of the day which in every four years of the sun's courses is made up of the three (supernumerary) hours in each year. And Herod is king in the 186th Olympiad, in the 4th year thereof. Now from the 66th to the 186th Olympiad there are 120 Olympiads intervening, and a little over. So then the 120 Olympiads make up 480 years: for the other three years remaining are perhaps taken up in the interval between the first and fourth years. And there thou hast the proof according to the Scripture which saith, From the going forth of the word that Jerusalem be restored and built until Messiah the Prince are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks” (Catechetical Lectures, 12, 19).Regarding the Roman system, although it is close to our present calendar, Julius Caesar did not use the numerals 1 to 31 to designate the days of the month. Rather, he used the ancient Roman names “Calends, Nones and Ides.” In this system, Calends was the first day of the month, Nones was the fifth and Ides was the thirteenth (except in March, May, July and October the Nones fell on the 7th day and the Ides fell on the 15th). The days between were noted on how close they were to Calends, Nones and Ides. The number placed before the calendar name would be subtracted from the calendar date. For example, the “8th day of Calends” would subtract 8 days from January 1st, which equals December 25. Incidentally, this is where the Irish get the expression “The Ides of March.”It is a little more complicated, however. Actually, there were two ways to mark the calendar based on the reigning monarch. The years could be signified by Ordinal numbers (e.g., first, second, third, fourth). When Ordinal numbers were used, they reflected the year in which the monarch was nominated or acceded to the throne. His ascension year would be the first year and the following year would be the second year.But the years could also be signified by Cardinal numbers (e.g., one, two, three, four). In this case, the year “1” would be a year after the monarch ascended to the throne.The ancient Jews used a similar dual design in marking off the reigns of the kings of Israel and Judah, making a distinction between the ascension year of the king as opposed to the reigning year following (See Edwin Thiele’s “The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings”).We do the same in our counting of various dates. Presently, we are in the 21st century, but our present date does not begin with 2104 but 2004. Similarly, we can say that “John is in his 31st year,” or “John is 30 years old.”These distinctions are important, since it is known that all the Greek and Latin historians marked dates based on one of the above systems. Thus, they had available to them:1) the Olympiad or OL2) the “urbe condita” or UC3) years of the monarch4) years of the Julian calendarAs a result, the same event might have several different dates attached to it depending on which dating system was used. For example, when Luke 3:1 says: “Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was tetrarch of Galilee,” the fifteenth year could be either 15 years from the date he ascended the throne (which we know is August 14 AD) or 16 years from the date of his ascension. Further, the beginning day of his reign could designated either January or August.To further complicate things, towards the end of the Roman Empire under the reign of Constantine, another system of dating was established, which was based on the land-tax occurring every 15 years, and was known as the “Indictions.” This 15-year cycle had originated in the reign of Diocletian but was implemented as a calendar under Constantine.Another complication is that the Greeks, besides using the Olympiad calendar, celebrated the nativity of Jesus on January 6 whereas the Latins celebrated it on December 25, which is not only a twelve day difference but also a difference of a different calendar year, since January begins a new calendar year.Here is where Dionysius the Little (named “Little” because of his humility) comes into the picture. Although Armenian by birth, he eventually settled at Rome. He began his work by translating texts from Greek into Latin, noting that the Greeks and Latins did not celebrate Christmas and Easter on the same dates. Relying upon the testimony of Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Eusebius of Caesarea, Jerome, as well as the historians such as Julius Africanus and Orosius, he calculated that Christ was born precisely 532 years before the date Dionysius began his work.For example, Julius Africanus made an extensive study of the Hebrew and Greek calendars, and attempted to make an accurate match-up of the two. He writes:“Up to the time of the Olympiads there is no certain history among the Greeks, all things before that date being confused, and in no way consistent with each other. But these Olympiads were thoroughly investigated by many, as the Greeks made up the records of their history not according to long spaces, but in periods of four years. For which reason I shall select the most remarkable of the mythical narratives before the time of the first Olympiad, and rapidly run over them. But those after that period, at least those that are notable, I shall take together, Hebrew events in connection with Greek, according to their dates, examining carefully the affairs of the Hebrews, and touching more cursorily on those of the Greeks; and my plan will be as follows: Taking up some single event in Hebrew history synchronous with another in Greek history, and keeping by it as the main subject, subtracting or adding as may seem needful in the narrative, I shall note what Greek or Persian of note, or remarkable personage of any other nationality, flourished at the date of that event in Hebrew history; and thus I may perhaps attain the object which I propose to myself.” (Extant Fragments, 3, 1).An example of his elaborate calculations can be seen below:“From Artaxerxes, moreover, 70 weeks are reckoned up to the time of Christ, according to the numeration of the Jews. For from Nehemiah, who was sent by Artaxerxes to people Jerusalem, about the 120th year of the Persian empire, and in the 20th year of Artaxerxes himself, and the 4th year of the 83nd Olympiad, up to this time, which was the 2d year of the 202d Olympiad, and the 16th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, there are given 475 years, which make 490 Hebrew years, since they measure the years by the lunar month of 29½ days, as may easily be explained, the annual period according to the sun consisting of 365¼ days, while the lunar period of 12 months has 11¼ days less. For which reason the Greeks and the Jews insert three intercalary months every eight years. For 8 times 11¼ days make 3 months. The 475 years, therefore, contain 59 periods of 8 years and three months over: thus, the three intercalary months for every 8 years being added, we get 15 years, and these together with the 475 years make 70 weeks. Let no one now think us unskilled in the calculations of astronomy, when we fix without further ado the number of days at 365¼. For it is not in ignorance of the truth, but rather by reason of exact study, that we have stated our opinion so shortly. But let what follows also be presented as in outline to those who endeavor to inquire minutely into all things” (Extant Fragments, xviii, 2).2NB: 475 years = 202 Olympiads minus 83 Olympiads = 119 Olympiads. 119 x 4 = 476 years. Deducting 1 year since there is no year “0,” leaves 475 years.When we compare lunar years with solar years we have:– 475 years x 365.25 days = 173,493 days– 490 years x 354 days (i.e., 12 months of 29.5 days) = 173, 460 days, which is a difference of only 33 daysDionysius then affirmed that the year 1 of Christ’s life corresponded to the Roman year 754 UC, both of which commenced on January 1st. Notice here that Dionysius has placed the birth of Christ on the 8th day before the Calends of January (that is, January 1st AD minus 8 days = December 25, 1 BC). Incidentally, the year beginning January 1st 1 AD coincides with the fourth year of the 194th Olympiad, at least up to the first full moon in July, which would then change to the first year of the 195th Olympiad.After Dionysius’ painstaking work, all historians had accepted his dating system. In fact, those who wished to go further back into history before the birth of Christ would put their dates in negative figures. Likewise, those who dated an event after Christ would designate it as “Anno Domini” (that is, “the year of Our Lord”). Thus, it is safe to say that Dionysius’ calendar has been accepted by the whole Western world up to our day.As such, we can use the various calendars and coordinate the various dates for specific events in Christ’s life:8 Days after birth of Christ:..........................….......195th OL, or 754 UC, or 1 ADJesus in the temple at 12 years old (Lk 2:42)...…...198th OL, or 766 UC or 13 ADThe baptism of Jesus:.......................................…….202nd OL, or 782 UC or 29 ADThe crucifixion of Jesus:...................................…...203rd OL, or 786 UC or 33 ADFrom the apocryphal work, Gospel of Nicodemus, Part I, The Acts of Pilate, it states:“In the fifteenth year of the government of Tiberius Caesar, emperor of the Romans, and Herod being king of Galilee, in the nineteenth year of his rule, on the eighth day before the Calends of April, which is the twenty-fifth of March, in the consulship of Rufus and Rubellio, in the fourth year of the two hundred and second Olympiad, Joseph Caiaphas being high priest of the Jews.”3This coincides precisely with all the information we have gathered thus far. We have:The 15th year of Tiberius Caesar = 19th year of Herod = 4th year of 202nd Olympiad = Calends, 8th day, April = 33 AD, March 25thTestimony of the Fathers on the precise date of Christ’s birth:Eusebius of Caesarea (d. 345 AD):“Chronicles,” PG xix, col. 530 in sequence:1) records that Christ was born in the 4th year of the 194th Olympiad.2) records that in the 3rd year of Christ (when he was age 2 and before his 3rd birthday), Herod gave the order to kill the innocents.3) records that Herod died in 5 AD, being eaten by worms.4) records that the Passion of Christ (33 AD) occurred in the 1st year of the 203rd Olympiad, and in the 18th year of Tiberius.“Ecclesiastical History,” PG xix, col. 287:1) records that Caesar Augustus reigned for 56 years and 4 months. Having ascended the throne in 43 BC, the 42nd year of his reign would have begun on April 1, 1 BC and ended April 1, 1 AD. Luke 2:1 states: “Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.” The significance of the 42nd year will be seen below.Jerome (d. 420):“Jerome’s Interpretation of the Chronicles of Eusebius Pamphilius”PL xxvii, col 559 in sequence:1) records that Herod was recognized as king of the Jews in year 2 of Caesar Augustus, and that Herod reigned 37 years, which puts Herod’s death in the year 6 of Christ or 6 AD. He writes:“Jesus Christ the Son of God was born at Bethlehem of Judah and from this year begins the salvation of Christians. In 3 AD Herod had all the male children of Bethlehem killed, and in 6 AD he died a wretched but well merited death, his body riddled with worms” (translated by J. S. Daly and Rev. F. Egregyi).2) records the year of Christ’s birth in the year 32 of Herod, or the year 42 of Augustus.3) records baptism of Christ occurring in 30 AD4) records the passion of Christ occurring in 33 AD5) records martyrdom of Stephen and conversion of Paul in 34 AD.6) records Matthew’s writing of the Gospel of Matthew in 41 AD.Justin Martyr (d. 163):“Apologia,” PL vi, col. 383 in sequence1) records that Christ’s passion occurred in the 17th year of Tiberius, which began in August 32 AD to August 33 AD.Tertullian (d. 222):“Against the Jews,” PL II, col. 6141) records that the nativity of Jesus took place in the year 41 of Caesar Augustus. Although this is one year earlier that Jerome’s, this is due to the fact that Tertullian is going strictly by the Latin dating (which, as we saw earlier, places the nativity one calendar year prior to the Greek calendar, since December 25 is a calendar year prior to January 6), and it is known that Jerome, though a Latin, was using Greek sources when he was living in Palestine.2) records that the sun stopped shining in the middle of the day at the crucifixion of Christ. This is noted in Tertullian’s “Apologeticum” Bk. 1, ch 21:“He wrought many wonders that were appropriate to such a death. Thus, at the time when the sun was in the middle of its orbit, the day was suddenly deprived of its brightness so that those who did not know that this prodigy had been foretold for the death of Christ did not understand the reason for it. Later they denied that it had happened, but you can find [the record of] this worldwide event stored in your archives.”A corroborating text comes from a secular historian known as Phlegon who was a freed slave of Hadrian the emperor (117-138 AD):“...in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad there was an eclipse of the sun which was so remarkable that nothing comparable had ever been seen before. At the sixth hour of the day [noon], the darkness was such that one could see the stars” (Fragmenta Historicum Graecorum, Didot. Paris 1849, vol. iii, Phlegon, Bk 13, ch. 14, as cited in J. S. Daly’s “The Controversy Concerning the Dates of the Birth and Death of Jesus Christ”).NB: This phenomenon would not have been an eclipse caused by the moon, since darkness only occurs over specific areas of the earth in a total eclipse, and does not last very long in any case. The gospels record that the sun stopped shining for three hours.Origen (d. 254) in “Contra Celsus,” Bk. 2, n. 33, corroborates Phlegon’s testimony:“The eclipse which took place at the time of Tiberius, during whose reign Christ was crucified, and the great earthquakes of the same time, wer noted by Phlegon in his Books 13 and 24.”Other Historians of the Church:John Malalas ( d. 578 )“Chronographia” PG xcvii, col. 351 in sequence:Records: “In the 4th month of the 42nd year of Augustus, on the 8th of the Calends of January [that is, December 25th] at the seventh hour of the day, our Lord Jesus Christ was born at Bethlehem”“He was baptized in the Jordan on the sixth day of the month of Audynae (i.e., January)”“In the year 18 of the reign of Tiberius, in the 7th month, our Lord Jesus Christ was betrayed by Judas His disciple. On the 23rd of March, the third day of the moon, the fifth day of the week at the fifth hour of the night [11 pm], He was led before Caiphas...On the following day he was taken to Pilate...He was crucified on the fourteenth day of the moon...At that time the sun was bereft of its light and darkness covered the whole earth.”Paul the Deacon“Miscellaneous History,” PL xcv, col. 858-864Records: “In the twelfth year of the reign of Tiberius, at Fidenae, an amphitheater collapsed burying 20,000 people. Seven years later, at the time when Our Lord was suffering his Passion, there was an immense earthquake. Rocks were split in the mountains. On the same day, the sun was darkened from the 6th to the 9th hour. Darkness covered the whole of the earth and the stars appeared.”Julius AfricanusExtant Fragments, PG x, col. 90Records: “In the year of the world 5533, that is 33 of Christ, namely the first year of the 203rd Olympiad, at the moment when Christ suffered his Passion horrific darkness covered the world and rocks were broken by an earthquake.”Orosius ( d. 418 )“History Against the Pagans,” PL xxxi, book 7, col. 10591) records that Christ was born in December of 1 BC2) records that in the year 3 of Christ, Herod slaughtered the innocents3) records that in the year 6 AD, Herod died, eaten by worms4) records that in the year 28, Tiberius sent Pilate to be governor of Judea5) records that in the year 33, the passion took place on the 8th of the Calends of April, which is March 25th.Cassiodorus (d. 580)“Chronicle,” PL lxix, col. 12281) records that the passion of Christ took place in the year 18 of Tiberius, on the 8th of the Calends of April, during an eclipse of the sun. He also writes: “Jesus Christ the Son of God was born at Bethlehem in the year 41 of the reign of Augustus.”Sulpitius Severus (d. 420)“Historia Sacra,” PL xx, col. 1441) records that Christ was born in the year 33 of Herod, on the 8th of the Calends of January [December 25], and that Herod died four years later; and that Christ was crucified in the 24th year of Herod the Younger (i.e., Herod Antipas).Epiphanius (d. 403)De Anno Natali Christi and De Anno Passionis Christi, PG xiii, cols. 902 and 9781) records that Christ was born in the Julian year 45 (1 BC on our calendar), the fourth year of the 194th Olympiad, and that the passion took place in the 18th year of Tiberius on March 25, and the Resurrection on the 27th
