Raise the Minimum Wage

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Raising the minimum wage historically has done absolutely nothing to help the poor or raise people out of poverty.

What the Federal Government ought to do, is stop printing more currency and lowering the value of the dollar. Raising the minimum wage is simply a bandaid fix to a much bigger problem the government refuses to address.

 

[Andylusion]

We'll start with the classic:
Minimum Wages and Employment: A Case Study of the Fast-Food Industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania

PERFECT!
I have this one right on my computer.

When I was at Wendy's, and the minimum wage went up, the first thing they did, was fire the part time employees. So unsurprisingly the percentage of full time workers went up.

As we said before, increasing the minimum wage kills wage increases. Thus the number of weeks until their first raise, in NJ is more than double that of PA, and the wage increase is lower.

The one problem with this report, is that they only surveyed 100 PA stores, will surveying 360 NJ stores.

The updated version, is located here.
http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/reanal-ff-nj.pdf

Starting on page 16.

"We eliminated from the sample counties along the New Jersey shore. These counties may have seasonal demand patterns different than the rest of the sample"

"May have" is actually in the text. Problem, the New Jersey shore would have different demand patterns. There would be the slow season, and the busy season, while other stores built in more economically stable areas, would have more steady demand.

Thus stores with a seasonal slow time, would naturally be more affected by a minimum wage increase, since you still have to pay those employees to stand around during the slow time.

Convenient to cut those out.

Page 23.

"This measure of full time employment for the pooled BNW sample shows that stores were initially smaller in Pennsylvania than New Jersey, and that during 1992, stores in Pennsylvania expanded while stores in New Jersey contracted slightly. "

Not exactly a pro-Minimum Wage article... but the authors smooth it over.

Page 25, is an amazing page.

"Restaurants that provided bi-weekly data experienced faster growth between the two waves of the survey, while restaurants that provided monthly data had slower hours growth"

So naturally... Page 27

"Table 5 indicates that controlling for the type of payroll data, has a large effect on the estimated New Jersey relative employment effect, because a much lower fraction of New Jersey restaurants supplied bi-weekly data. Once these differences are taken into account, hte employment growth difference between New Jersey and Pennsylvania all but disappear, even in the pooled BNW sample"

Stop... let's review that for a second. Stores that turned in bi-weekly data, instead of monthly or weekly data, had higher growth.

So we just corrected for that, and magically... there is no difference in job loss or growth between the two states....... because they reported data bi-weekly..... which has to be corrected.......

Really? You really are telling me, that the 'illusion' that PA had job growth, while NJ had job loss.... was actually all due to stores reporting bi-weekly.... and if those darn stores had all been reporting weekly, or monthly, there wouldn't have been any difference?

Again, these reports twisted and rationalized the loss of jobs over and over. Can't count stores by the shore. Have to correct for 'bi-weekly' reporting... because you all know that if you report bi-weekly, you always inflate your employment numbers over those weekly and monthly people. I love the NJ PA report, because it shows what twists and bends, and intellectual dishonesty the left has to go through to push their crap.

In 2007, the minimum wage went from $5.25 to $5.85. Unemployment ticked up to 5% from 4.5%

In 2008, the minimum wage went from $5.85 to $6.55. Unemployment ticked up to 7.8% from 5%.

In 2009, the minimum wage went from $6.55 to $7.25. Unemployment ticked up to 9.8%.

No correlation there, right?

The problem is that the number of people working for the minimum wage went from 400,000 in 2006 to 1.8 million in 2010. Adding in those reporting making less than the minimum wage (which includes a lot of misreporting, and those legitimately earning less), makes it go from 1.7 million at or below the min wage in 2006 to 4.4 million in 2010.
So, no, it doesn't look like the increase in the min wage cause min wage workers to lose their jobs.

Really? So... If I'm working at Wendy's, and been there for 3 years, and I'm earning $7.25 in 2006, and in 2009, now my $7.25 is the minimum wage..... you are shocked more people are on the minimum wage, when the minimum wage is increased?

Teem unemployment was falling, right until the minimum wage went up. Teen unemployment was almost 28% within months of the last minimum wage boost.

Now, if there is any group that should not have been affected by the sub-prime melt down, it should have been teen part time workers. And given they new higher minimum wage, they should have been the most motivated to get jobs, which now paid more than ever before.

Yet the exact reverse happened. Fail.

 

[Andylusion]

Research has been inconclusive, but generally speaking, no it has not been shown that increasing minimum wage causes a drop in employment or rise in unemployment.​

​

By the way... if you really believe that.... then... why not $100/hr?

 

[dblack]

Cue Buddy Holly's band ...

 

[Mathbud1]

You need evidence? Really? Okay, let's say you get a one week pay check that amounts to $240, or you could get a pay check that amounts to $500 for the week. Which pay check do you think will keep you out of poverty?

Well that was easy. LOL!

Oversimplification. You missed everything else that will be affected. Wages won't go up in a vacuum. The money has to come from somewhere.

 

[Mathbud1]

[
QUOTE="norwegen, post: 9743517, member: 46569"]Why should the government determine in any measure the compensation that a business pays? Whose business is it?

And that's why wage growth has been flat for three decades.
Take a look at historical wages (in Real Dollars) for non-supervisory workers. Productivity has been on a steady rise but not wages. These numbers are based on the Department of Labor who measures wage growth in Real Dollars as do economists, no matter what political stripe.[/QUOTE]
How much of the increased productivity are the workers responsible for?

 

[Andylusion]

NO. Let's just work honestly and harder, is that something that should be mentioned? NO? The new world order, globalism, multiculturalism, has something to do with this. Instead, we laze, slack off ,flounder and then instead, we demand the minimum wage rate be raised...weak, really, what are they doing in China now? Think that guy in Tiananmen square that stood against that tank got minimum wage now?

Speak for yourself.

And can you explain what "multiculturalism" has to do with this?

Thank you.

That's easy. Culture effects everything. Lying. Lying is well known to harm your ability to become wealthy. This should be the most obvious thing in the world.

I used to take my car to a local repair shop just down the street from me. They screwed up my car once, but I let that go, and they fixed it. But one time I gave my car to them, and broke it, and covered it up, and lied to me about it.

I will *NEVER* go to that place again, because... they lied! Some people have a culture that, your word is your bond. Your 'good name' used to be important. People who lie, don't get very far.

You call in sick, and then post photos of the beach on facebook? Then you are shocked you get fired, or passed over for a promotion for the 10th time in a row. Culture. Lying doesn't get you far in this world. Never will.

Culture effects what you pursue. Asians routinely go after the hard sciences and math. I knew a couple from Laos. Husband and wife, both got degrees in Engineering. Is it shocking that Asians routinely out perform white Americans? Not to me.

Culture. "Well I just wanted an easy A" "I studied Germany Art History".... oooooaoOOOoo... well now that is in HIGH demand in the market, isn't it?

Well I got a Ph.D in Music Therapy, for only $59,000, so I can go get my $28,000 job in Music Therapy.... because I'm brilliant.

Culture has a ton to do with it. Work ethic. Morality. Family structure even. Get a clue Americans.... your family structure highly effects your success in life. You want to succeed? Have a stable, normal, moral family structure.

"well I just want to shack up with my girl friend, and pop out kids between 3 different women"

...and then wonder why you can't succeed in life. Are there exceptions? Of course. But generally speaking, you do that, you don't get promoted. People whose personal lives are a wreck, have careers that are a wreck.

So yes, absolutely, Culture plays a massive part in economic growth.

In fact... I just remember this.

soundfiledesc

33rd Santa Barbara Economic Summit, Megan McArdle refers specifically that economic stagnation at the lower end, is due to culture. (it's somewhat far into the 1 hour long podcast).

But yes, absolutely, a loss of our culture, our work ethic, our family values... absolutely it has a ton to do with economic success and growth.

 

[Andylusion]

[
QUOTE="norwegen, post: 9743517, member: 46569"]Why should the government determine in any measure the compensation that a business pays? Whose business is it?

And that's why wage growth has been flat for three decades.
Take a look at historical wages (in Real Dollars) for non-supervisory workers. Productivity has been on a steady rise but not wages. These numbers are based on the Department of Labor who measures wage growth in Real Dollars as do economists, no matter what political stripe.

How much of the increased productivity are the workers responsible for?[/QUOTE]

First, the increase in productivity is due exclusively to the rich and wealthy investing in it. The average worker has neither the skill, nor education, nor capital to increase his own productivity at his job.

Second, I deny the claim that wages have been flat. They have not been flat. Not even close to flat.

People get more benefits, than ever before. Additionally, people get more government program transfers than ever before.

I don't understand why people don't grasp this. The only way you can say wages have been flat is if you look exclusively at cash wages.

If you look at tuition reimbursement, if you look at health care, if you look at unpaid time off, and paid time off, if you look at unemployment compensation, if you look at social security and medicare....

All of these things cost the employer money, and benefit the employee. Wages are not flat.

When the social security tax went up in the 90s, that cost the employer more. Then you don't get a raise.... yeah... because the money that you might have gotten in a raise, went to the government.

Unemployment compensation, costs the employer money. The money that could have gone to you in a raise, went to the government instead.

Health care benefits. The money that could have gone to you in a raise, went to the insurance company, for mandated insurance coverage by government.

Paid time off. The money you could have had in a wage increase, went to your paid time off.

Any time an employer hires anyone, they don't look at "Hmm... $8/hr, that's $320 a week, that's $16.6K a year."

No, they look at the TOTAL COST OF EMPLOYMENT.

The Total cost, including all taxes, filing paperwork, paid time off, health insurance, 401K, Medicare, Social Security, everything.....

If they have $30,000 for a specific job, and $10,000 is used up in Federal taxes, benefits, mandates and so on... then how much are you paid? $20,000 a year. Then you complain wages are flat?

No, you just pushed regulations, taxes, and fees onto your employer, and now can't grasp why you don't get a raise.

I get 4 weeks of paid vacation at my job. Shockingly it doesn't pay a ton. Amazing... it's like the two are connected.... because they are.

You just had Obama pass a bunch of expensive mandates for health insurance, onto employers. Now you want to complain about wages being flat? Those two things are connected. Stop screwing yourself over.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Raising the minimum wage historically has done absolutely nothing to help the poor or raise people out of poverty.

Actually raising the minimum wage helps the working Middle Class by raising the floor of wages.

"Increasing the minimum wage, then, will create a new floor, and wage increases will ripple through the wage distribution. Moreover, a policy that can shore up the middle class will also reduce income inequality and serve as a foundation for job creation. The real reason income inequality has been increasing and the middle class has been shrinking is because of stagnating wages. Increasing the minimum wage would go far toward reversing that trend".
How Raising the Minimum Wage Would Boost the Middle Class

It certainly is time that the working Middle Class gets a break. The deck has been stacked against them for over three decades.
As the Middle Class makes up the largest group by far of the consumer class, strengthening the Middle Class is good for the US economy as we do have an economy that is 70% driven by consumer spending. One of the main reasons that last few recessions have dragged on and on is because of the Middle Class consumer has had less and less expendable income thanks to flat wage growth. It's been going on for over three decades. According the Department of Labor, in Real Dollars (constant dollars sans inflation), a worker in a non-supervisory position is making less now than their counterpart in 1979.
Income gap? There's your reason and it's effect on the economy has certainly been negative.

Actually the United States used to be the world's leading steel industry back in the 40s. Not having enough consumer spending certainly did not lead to steel seeing its manufacturing develop overseas, and it certainly did not equate to further job creation. If a manufacturing plant like GM decides to go elsewhere and close their doors in a particular state, the consumer demand to buy their cars or trucks won't change, and those unfortunate people will still be holding their pink slips no matter how much the consumer spends. People have the tendency to buy what's most cost effective for them to save a buck yet still demand quality, it's the simple truth. Companies will just simply make those necessary cost cuts in order to compete in the "global" market - either through manpower, advancing technology (like drones that now can deliver your packages to your doorstep), or smaller benefits packages.

 

[Noomi]

Raising the minimum wage historically has done absolutely nothing to help the poor or raise people out of poverty.

How do you figure that?

 

[Politico]

Since there were only 3.3 million people in the U.S. earning at or below the minimum wage in 2013, where are you getting your figure from?

And considering that the determination of at or below Fed Minimum wage does not include overtime, comission, or tips, and 1.5 million of the workers at or below min wage are in the food service industry....it's definitely far fewer than 3 million actually earning at or below the minimum wage.

Nobody being able to do math aside. This weak cop out is the reason no one can have an honest discussion. The issue is not about the number making minimum. It is what the living wage number is and how many are making one. The fact is 25% of private sector workers make $10 or less. That is not a living wage.

As long as it was gradual, it would work. To keep up with inflation, the wage would have to be 15.00

No it would have to be $16.50.

 

[Mathbud1]

Nobody being able to do math aside. This weak cop out is the reason no one can have an honest discussion. The issue is not about the number making minimum. It is what the living wage number is and how many are making one. The fact is 25% of private sector workers make $10 or less. That is not a living wage.



No it would have to be $16.50.

Speaking of being able to do math... where do you think the money to pay this "living wage" will come from?

 

[Plasmaball]

Raising the minimum wage historically has done absolutely nothing to help the poor or raise people out of poverty.

Actually raising the minimum wage helps the working Middle Class by raising the floor of wages.

No, it doesn't. It hurts the middle class. The only people who get a wage bump when the minimum wage is raised are the people who were making less than the new minimum wage. The rest of us don't get the same increase, but we do pay the higher costs of goods and services as a result of the increase.

So the minimum wage hasnt been increased and yet things are still inflating anyways. this argument doesnt hold water at all.

Welfare programs effectively raise the minimum wage... so the argument does hold water.

no

Yes.

No

 

[Andylusion]

Raising the minimum wage historically has done absolutely nothing to help the poor or raise people out of poverty.

How do you figure that?

Well... because it eliminate jobs. Always has. And it drives up prices.

When I was working at Wendy's, and the minimum wage went up, the first thing they did, was eliminate 3 employees. That was the first week.

Then, after that, they started raising their prices. They did this by cutting portion sizes. The large fry got smaller. The medium got smaller. The small got smaller. Then they introduced the "Biggie" fry, and "Biggie" drink, with new higher price.

Then over time, they shrunk the "biggie" down to the size of the original large, and the large to the size of the original medium, and the medium to the small, and the small was eventually eliminated. Then after a few years, they just renamed them all... small medium and large.

Burger had the same thing happen. They reduced the size of the burger, and then came out with "The Dave Classic" if anyone remembers those. That lasted a few years, then they eliminated the regular smaller burger, and it was Classic Single, Classic Double, and so on, with the new higher price.

And ALL companies do this. They all pass on the cost of higher minimum wages, on to the consumers. Prices go up.

This guy here, did a neat little comparison.
Mouse Print 8211 Sneaky Fine Print Blog Archive When the Chips are Down sized 8230

That's one of dozens on his page.
Same prices, smaller weight.


That shrinking feeling 10 downsized products - Money - TODAY.com

Consumer reports, showed a bunch of different products from different companies, which cut their product size.

They all do this. Every time you increase the minimum wage, that money has to come from somewhere. There is no magic money tree behind the company, where they can just shake up some cash to pay these higher wages. It has to be passed on to the consumer. You and me.

That's why no matter what minimum wage you put in place, it will never be enough. The cost of living increases right along with it.

 

[Stephanie]

This how democrats keeps their base on their knees crawling to vote for them

act like they are "thinking" and care for them spewing this on raising the min. when it's proven over and over it will HURT THEM in the long run

but hey at least they won't JOB LOCKED. they can jump on taxpayers gravy train and write poetry, knit some sweaters, read some good books. You see how all that worked for the black people and look what they have to show for it after how many years since MLK

this country is doomed

 

[Stephanie]

 

[DiamondDave]

Raising the minimum wage historically has done absolutely nothing to help the poor or raise people out of poverty.

Actually raising the minimum wage helps the working Middle Class by raising the floor of wages.

No, it doesn't. It hurts the middle class. The only people who get a wage bump when the minimum wage is raised are the people who were making less than the new minimum wage. The rest of us don't get the same increase, but we do pay the higher costs of goods and services as a result of the increase.

All it does is change the numeric value of the poverty level.. the poor are still poor, the middle class are still middle class, and the rich are still rich.. inflation increases and what it costs to live goes up just as much.. it accomplishes nothing but buying votes of the ignorant and bleeding hearts

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Several states have their own minimum wage set higher than the federal wage so there is no reason why there needs to be a federal wage increase. The states can and do set their own according to the cost of living.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Since it's illegal to buy votes, the next best way is give people a raise.

28 million working Americans would benefit. 28 million votes swinging for whoever got them that raise...I'm not a political operative but this doesn't sound very complicated to me.

 

[fbj]

Raising the minimum wage historically has done absolutely nothing to help the poor or raise people out of poverty.

How do you figure that?

Well... because it eliminate jobs. Always has. And it drives up prices.

When I was working at Wendy's, and the minimum wage went up, the first thing they did, was eliminate 3 employees. That was the first week.

Then, after that, they started raising their prices. They did this by cutting portion sizes. The large fry got smaller. The medium got smaller. The small got smaller. Then they introduced the "Biggie" fry, and "Biggie" drink, with new higher price.

Then over time, they shrunk the "biggie" down to the size of the original large, and the large to the size of the original medium, and the medium to the small, and the small was eventually eliminated. Then after a few years, they just renamed them all... small medium and large.

Burger had the same thing happen. They reduced the size of the burger, and then came out with "The Dave Classic" if anyone remembers those. That lasted a few years, then they eliminated the regular smaller burger, and it was Classic Single, Classic Double, and so on, with the new higher price.

And ALL companies do this. They all pass on the cost of higher minimum wages, on to the consumers. Prices go up.

This guy here, did a neat little comparison.
Mouse Print 8211 Sneaky Fine Print Blog Archive When the Chips are Down sized 8230

That's one of dozens on his page.
Same prices, smaller weight.


That shrinking feeling 10 downsized products - Money - TODAY.com

Consumer reports, showed a bunch of different products from different companies, which cut their product size.

They all do this. Every time you increase the minimum wage, that money has to come from somewhere. There is no magic money tree behind the company, where they can just shake up some cash to pay these higher wages. It has to be passed on to the consumer. You and me.

That's why no matter what minimum wage you put in place, it will never be enough. The cost of living increases right along with it.

Agree, I am stunned it's too many stupid to realize that raising to $15 will defintely result in

layoffs
less hiring
increased prices