On The Reliability of The Old Testament

[MarcATL]

Humans basically don't have the ability to verify ancient history. They can't even keep the original documents written in scrolls or tablets. What we read today in its paper form are copies of copies. Usually small nations have no credible histories. The point is, God made it credibly true. History itself relies on faith to convey and to be taken. To simply put, you can't possibly verify a book of ancient history, it's out of human capability to do so. The Bible is a belief that the writings are accurate because a God is in control behind the scene. It is out of human capability to verify this either. That's why it is correctly put thousands of years ago that - you need faith to believe.

That said, the more time passes the more science verifies what's written in the Bible to be true. Including things concerning our health.

 

[MarcATL]

What's the evidence of a worldwide, 40 day flood?

The earth's crust.

There's layers of it that mankind aka science has told us is millions and millions of years old that found itself on top of layers that are not as old.

A worldwide flood us the only thing that can make that happen. Notwithstanding their time calculations are 100% accurate, but its easy to determine what is older to what is newer.

 

[Meriweather]

Just because someone don't follow the Bible god don't mean they don't believe in a higher power of some sort. They just choose not to follow a dictator that demands worship. What kind of loving God demands worship by the way?

God demands worship like a user manual demands you plug your appliance into an electric outlet. How many people yell, scream, and denigrate their appliances because they won't work if not plugged in?

Scripture explains that God is love and goodness. In living your life, give love and goodness first place. Love yourself, love others as you love yourself. Worship love and goodness--i.e. God.

 

[Hollie]

Just because someone don't follow the Bible god don't mean they don't believe in a higher power of some sort. They just choose not to follow a dictator that demands worship. What kind of loving God demands worship by the way?

God demands worship like a user manual demands you plug your appliance into an electric outlet. How many people yell, scream, and denigrate their appliances because they won't work if not plugged in?

Scripture explains that God is love and goodness. In living your life, give love and goodness first place. Love yourself, love others as you love yourself. Worship love and goodness--i.e. God.

Equating gods to toasters seems...you know.... to diminish them.

 

[anynameyouwish]

On the Reliability of the Old Testament: Kitchen, K. A.: 9780802803962: Amazon.com: Books

Research says it is

this year i bought 7 bibles at yard sales and put them in my camp outhouse for toilet paper

 

[Meriweather]

No. Equating people who do not understand God to people who do not understand one needs to plug in an appliance for it to work. Shrug. Or people who do not understand the written word whether that word is in the Bible or on an Internet forum.

 

[Hollie]

No. Equating people who do not understand God to people who do not understand one needs to plug in an appliance for it to work. Shrug. Or people who do not understand the written word whether that word is in the Bible or on an Internet forum.

“God demands worship like a user manual demands you plug your appliance into an electric outlet.”

I didn’t see much in the above about people. More in terms of people defining attributes of gods.

Those who write on behalf of the gods might want to provide the gods with final editing rights.

 

[Meriweather]

Those who write on behalf of the gods might want to provide the gods with final editing rights.

Hard to imagine God being far beyond writing and editing, isn't it?

A key point to remember is that the original authors were talking to their original audience, in their language and the cultural experiences of that day and age. Today we should remember we use an entirely different language and live in a disparate culture. Great care is needed to discern the original intent and meaning.

 

[Hollie]

What's the evidence of a worldwide, 40 day flood?

The earth's crust.

There's layers of it that mankind aka science has told us is millions and millions of years old that found itself on top of layers that are not as old.

A worldwide flood us the only thing that can make that happen. Notwithstanding their time calculations are 100% accurate, but its easy to determine what is older to what is newer.

can you provide specifics

Humans basically don't have the ability to verify ancient history. They can't even keep the original documents written in scrolls or tablets. What we read today in its paper form are copies of copies. Usually small nations have no credible histories. The point is, God made it credibly true. History itself relies on faith to convey and to be taken. To simply put, you can't possibly verify a book of ancient history, it's out of human capability to do so. The Bible is a belief that the writings are accurate because a God is in control behind the scene. It is out of human capability to verify this either. That's why it is correctly put thousands of years ago that - you need faith to believe.

That said, the more time passes the more science verifies what's written in the Bible to be true. Including things concerning our health.

I’m not so sure about that. I think everyone has seen such claims that science verifies the Bible but the “science“ in the Bible is certainly not remarkable. The alleged “accurate“ science in the Bible can be explained by simple observation of nature or, more often, by selective interpretation of verses.

None of the relevant sciences have ever been based on the Bible. That‘s not for lack of trying by the religious institutions. Up through the middle of the nineteenth century, some scientists tried to accommodate literal interpretations of the Bible to explain foundations of nature. Y E creationism was a failure, so creationists tried gap creationism, and other attempts at reconciliation. literal, Bible-based science as explanation for nature has always failed. Relevant science is based on the reality of the natural world.

 

[Meriweather]

Y E creationism was a failure, so creationists tried gap creationism, and other attempts at reconciliation. literal, Bible-based science as explanation for nature has always failed. Relevant science is based on the reality of the natural world.

Yes, Young Earth Creationism is a failure due to what I noted in my last post. Bishop Ussher, in the mid 1600s, using the English language of his day concluded he could calculate the age of the earth by counting the generations in the Bible. Had he been using the original Hebrew he might have noted right away that "Son of" would have been more accurately translated as "Descendant of", and therefore counting names and multiplying by 25 would be inaccurate.

We are not first generation of English speakers to use the literal English in place of the original Hebrew. Translators of any language will warn that it often impossible to get the precise meaning to cross over into the second language.

 

[Taz]

What's the evidence of a worldwide, 40 day flood?

The earth's crust.

There's layers of it that mankind aka science has told us is millions and millions of years old that found itself on top of layers that are not as old.

A worldwide flood us the only thing that can make that happen. Notwithstanding their time calculations are 100% accurate, but its easy to determine what is older to what is newer.

Do you have a link to the science that says so? Or is this simply your own personal fartsmoke?

 

[Hollie]

Those who write on behalf of the gods might want to provide the gods with final editing rights.

Hard to imagine God being far beyond writing and editing, isn't it?

A key point to remember is that the original authors were talking to their original audience, in their language and the cultural experiences of that day and age. Today we should remember we use an entirely different language and live in a disparate culture. Great care is needed to discern the original intent and meaning.

There used to be a JW on the board who was very clear about the JW‘s holding true original intent and meaning.

Who decides? Who is the tie-breaker in the battle that separates the various opinions of the various sects / subdivisions of christianity?

 

[Hollie]

Y E creationism was a failure, so creationists tried gap creationism, and other attempts at reconciliation. literal, Bible-based science as explanation for nature has always failed. Relevant science is based on the reality of the natural world.

Yes, Young Earth Creationism is a failure due to what I noted in my last post. Bishop Ussher, in the mid 1600s, using the English language of his day concluded he could calculate the age of the earth by counting the generations in the Bible. Had he been using the original Hebrew he might have noted right away that "Son of" would have been more accurately translated as "Descendant of", and therefore counting names and multiplying by 25 would be inaccurate.

We are not first generation of English speakers to use the literal English in place of the original Hebrew. Translators of any language will warn that it often impossible to get the precise meaning to cross over into the second language.

Precise meaning of a translation doesn’t necessarily mean accurate representation. If a Christian is to believe that their God(s) created the earth and heavens, then clearly the earth and heavens represent those are God's primary works. Rigorous study of the earth and heavens should be foundational to Christians. Placing an object such as the Bible before them is a form of idolatry.

 

[norwegen]

No global flood ever happened. It's impossible, and it's not in the geological record.

A flood, however, well could have wiped out the world of the ancient Israelites. That is, when we know what their world was.

The Bible is truth to its adherents and in its proper contexts. Why Spaz or anyone else would carry on as if the entire Old Testament is about a literal worldwide flood is an argument that's just not worth entertaining.

 

[Meriweather]

Who decides? Who is the tie-breaker in the battle that separates the various opinions of the various sects / subdivisions of christianity?

The individual decides. It is quite easy to trace who came up with the theory that the earth was only a few thousand years old. It is well-known how and why he made the calculations he did. Hebrew is a pictorial language with few words; English is subjective with many words. Easy enough to find material in the Bible where the words we translate as "son of" often indicates "descendant of" in the original Hebrew.

You mentioned God should edit. I say God gave each of us a mind, a brain. Those of us who are interested are well equipped to do our own study.

 

[Meriweather]

Precise meaning of a translation doesn’t necessarily mean accurate representation. If a Christian is to believe that their God(s) created the earth and heavens, then clearly the earth and heavens represent those are God's primary works. Rigorous study of the earth and heavens should be foundational to Christians. Placing an object such as the Bible before them is a form of idolatry.

Take a look at Medieval Catholic Monks (as well as other Catholics). They were studying the earth and the heavens. Studying the earth and the heavens does not preclude the Bible any more than studying the Bible precludes studying the earth and the heavens. The Bible is a book; the book is the object. The Bible contains knowledge and lessons our ancestors wished to pass along to us. Knowledge and lessons in behavior are not forms of idolatry.

 

[Cassandro]

You know the funny thing about this thread is that those who profess to be born agains Christians are actually under the New Covanant which is the New Testament. When they accepted Christ the old was put away.

Wrong. Christ fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament.

Did you ever think that maybe the entities that put the NT together had the collections of the older stories in the OT? There is actually a lot of information on how the Piso family of Rome created the NT.

"The New Testament, the Church, and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnius Piso family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testament and all the characters in it - Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, and John the Baptist- are all fictional."
Abelard Reuchlin

More info on the Piso family:

The Piso Family and the Story of The Bible

Did they write the Dead Sea Scrolls?

 

[ding]

No global flood ever happened. It's impossible, and it's not in the geological record.

A flood, however, well could have wiped out the world of the ancient Israelites. That is, when we know what their world was.

The Bible is truth to its adherents and in its proper contexts. Why Spaz or anyone else would carry on as if the entire Old Testament is about a literal worldwide flood is an argument that's just not worth entertaining.

There could have been global flooding events but not the entire world submerged in water. I believe the allegorical account of a world wide flood was an event that was cause by an asteroid strike in the polar region which was a global climate altering event which would have cause widespread rain around the globe that was so far outside of the norm of typical flooding events that it was noteworthy and that is the reason so many ancient cultures have an account of a flood.

Science | AAAS

advances.sciencemag.org

 

[Hollie]

Precise meaning of a translation doesn’t necessarily mean accurate representation. If a Christian is to believe that their God(s) created the earth and heavens, then clearly the earth and heavens represent those are God's primary works. Rigorous study of the earth and heavens should be foundational to Christians. Placing an object such as the Bible before them is a form of idolatry.

Take a look at Medieval Catholic Monks (as well as other Catholics). They were studying the earth and the heavens. Studying the earth and the heavens does not preclude the Bible any more than studying the Bible precludes studying the earth and the heavens. The Bible is a book; the book is the object. The Bible contains knowledge and lessons our ancestors wished to pass along to us. Knowledge and lessons in behavior are not forms of idolatry.

Take a look at the Christian church in Europe. Civilization was literally held back for 800 years because of that institution during the Dark Ages.

Studying the earth and heavens has never been, and is not now, a priority of the religion. That seems odd to me as it is the religion that claims both are the result of the gods. Yes, the Bible is a book. We know, however, that religions attach the word “holy” to their books and ascribe magical connotations to those books. I would note that the Bible was written by a very few authors, most of whom are unknown. Those writers are not necessarily our ancestors passing along knowledge or wisdom but were a very few people more often than not writing hearsay accounts of events they had no direct interaction with.

 

[Meriweather]

Take a look at the Christian church in Europe. Civilization was literally held back for 800 years because of that institution during the Dark Ages.

Take a look at the entire picture of the Dark Ages, its entire history.