CDZ Obama, Hillary, Trump, Fake News, Mueller, The Swamp.....

[Tehon]

I mean, I agree that it isn't nefarious and that it is diffuse. I don't agree that it keeps Trump in check. It uses Trump. Trump is part of it by virtue of being the president. Obama was the same.

It's just a way of describing how we are ruled by plutocrats.

It keeps him in check by leaking. It keeps him in check by for instance dragging their feet in implementing new policies. It keeps him in check by the simple expediency of leaving government employ. If the state department loses most of it's top career diplomats, isn't it safe to assume that this hinders Trumps ability to implement his foreign policy? If you can describe what he does as policy. It's one thing to declare the N-Korean nuclear threat over. Quite another to draft agreements and negotiate the nuts and bolts of that agreement. These are just a couple of examples.

Okay, I can see how, in a world of competing self interests, there are also those who would try to get in the way.

That's what I mean by a built in inertia.

But isn't that just partisan politics? My understanding of the deep state is that it transcends partisan politics. That is an aspect that makes it visible.

Partisan politics is ideologically driven, this isn't. I already gave the example of the state department. Both Democrats and Republicans leave. They don't leave because Trump is a Republican. They leave because of the way the people he put in place acted towards the institution they represent. In that sense they are apolitical. They have a job to do, Trump is hampering their ability to do that job, so they react. It's the reason for instance that you see conflicting messages coming out of the administration about Russia. On the one hand you have Trump tweeting about the fake Russia investigation. On the other hand you see statements coming out of the intelligence community. It's not like a lot of people think, Trump trying to sow confusion. It's the CIA, NSA, Homeland security protecting the integrity of their departments against Trump.

There is turnover in every new administration. I certainly understand why it would be worse for Trump but those people that are elected and remain in government have a responsibility to the office to carry out their duties.

I get what you are saying but it gets me no closer to understanding the continuity of agenda from one administration to the next, regardless of partisanship, in some areas of government control while others languish in partisan bickering. The endless war on the ME is the most glaring example.

 

[candycorn]

It keeps him in check by leaking. It keeps him in check by for instance dragging their feet in implementing new policies. It keeps him in check by the simple expediency of leaving government employ. If the state department loses most of it's top career diplomats, isn't it safe to assume that this hinders Trumps ability to implement his foreign policy? If you can describe what he does as policy. It's one thing to declare the N-Korean nuclear threat over. Quite another to draft agreements and negotiate the nuts and bolts of that agreement. These are just a couple of examples.

Okay, I can see how, in a world of competing self interests, there are also those who would try to get in the way.

That's what I mean by a built in inertia.

But isn't that just partisan politics? My understanding of the deep state is that it transcends partisan politics. That is an aspect that makes it visible.

Being non existent helps with the invisibility

The 'Deep State' is just an excuse to ignore.

Anyone who isn't republican is by definition a 'liberal' and ignored.
Members of the media are 'enemies of the people' are are ignored.
Anyone republican who contradicts Trump is 'the establishment' and is ignored.
Anyone in government who contradicts Trump is the 'deep state' and is ignored.
Anyone out of government who contradicts Trump is the 'swamp' and is ignored.

Its a rather tight circle of ignorance where there is no valid method of contradicting the president. In the minds of those who buy into that mindset, anyway.

Disagree.

Here is why.

There doesn’t seem to be any ignoring going on. What “deep state” does is create an “enemy at the gates” that creates a sense of urgency. An old saying in Politics is that if you’re not on the offensive, you’re on defense. It is hard to be on “offense” when you have no other team on the field. I would wager a ham sandwich that this was the brainchild of Steve Bannon who would understand the concept—coming from the world of constant attack media. So in the campaign, “the swamp” (whatever the hell that is) served nicely. However, once you’re in office at 12:00, by 12:01, it was clear that the supposed “swamp” wasn’t going anywhere so they needed a new faux enemy…and tah-dah!!!!!!!!!!! Deep State!

 

[Tehon]

Okay, I can see how, in a world of competing self interests, there are also those who would try to get in the way.

That's what I mean by a built in inertia.

But isn't that just partisan politics? My understanding of the deep state is that it transcends partisan politics. That is an aspect that makes it visible.

Being non existent helps with the invisibility

The 'Deep State' is just an excuse to ignore.

Anyone who isn't republican is by definition a 'liberal' and ignored.
Members of the media are 'enemies of the people' are are ignored.
Anyone republican who contradicts Trump is 'the establishment' and is ignored.
Anyone in government who contradicts Trump is the 'deep state' and is ignored.
Anyone out of government who contradicts Trump is the 'swamp' and is ignored.

Its a rather tight circle of ignorance where there is no valid method of contradicting the president. In the minds of those who buy into that mindset, anyway.

Disagree.

Here is why.

There doesn’t seem to be any ignoring going on. What “deep state” does is create an “enemy at the gates” that creates a sense of urgency. An old saying in Politics is that if you’re not on the offensive, you’re on defense. It is hard to be on “offense” when you have no other team on the field. I would wager a ham sandwich that this was the brainchild of Steve Bannon who would understand the concept—coming from the world of constant attack media. So in the campaign, “the swamp” (whatever the hell that is) served nicely. However, once you’re in office at 12:00, by 12:01, it was clear that the supposed “swamp” wasn’t going anywhere so they needed a new faux enemy…and tah-dah!!!!!!!!!!! Deep State!

The deep state is not a new concept. It didn't originate with Trump or Bannon.

 

[candycorn]

That's what I mean by a built in inertia.

But isn't that just partisan politics? My understanding of the deep state is that it transcends partisan politics. That is an aspect that makes it visible.

Being non existent helps with the invisibility

The 'Deep State' is just an excuse to ignore.

Anyone who isn't republican is by definition a 'liberal' and ignored.
Members of the media are 'enemies of the people' are are ignored.
Anyone republican who contradicts Trump is 'the establishment' and is ignored.
Anyone in government who contradicts Trump is the 'deep state' and is ignored.
Anyone out of government who contradicts Trump is the 'swamp' and is ignored.

Its a rather tight circle of ignorance where there is no valid method of contradicting the president. In the minds of those who buy into that mindset, anyway.

Disagree.

Here is why.

There doesn’t seem to be any ignoring going on. What “deep state” does is create an “enemy at the gates” that creates a sense of urgency. An old saying in Politics is that if you’re not on the offensive, you’re on defense. It is hard to be on “offense” when you have no other team on the field. I would wager a ham sandwich that this was the brainchild of Steve Bannon who would understand the concept—coming from the world of constant attack media. So in the campaign, “the swamp” (whatever the hell that is) served nicely. However, once you’re in office at 12:00, by 12:01, it was clear that the supposed “swamp” wasn’t going anywhere so they needed a new faux enemy…and tah-dah!!!!!!!!!!! Deep State!

The deep state is not a new concept. It didn't originate with Trump or Bannon.

Never said it did. It’s a tool that is used by various politicians. I was pointing out that Bannon or someone like him who is more politically savvy decided to use the tool; the blob isn’t smart enough.

 

[Tehon]

But isn't that just partisan politics? My understanding of the deep state is that it transcends partisan politics. That is an aspect that makes it visible.

Being non existent helps with the invisibility

The 'Deep State' is just an excuse to ignore.

Anyone who isn't republican is by definition a 'liberal' and ignored.
Members of the media are 'enemies of the people' are are ignored.
Anyone republican who contradicts Trump is 'the establishment' and is ignored.
Anyone in government who contradicts Trump is the 'deep state' and is ignored.
Anyone out of government who contradicts Trump is the 'swamp' and is ignored.

Its a rather tight circle of ignorance where there is no valid method of contradicting the president. In the minds of those who buy into that mindset, anyway.

Disagree.

Here is why.

There doesn’t seem to be any ignoring going on. What “deep state” does is create an “enemy at the gates” that creates a sense of urgency. An old saying in Politics is that if you’re not on the offensive, you’re on defense. It is hard to be on “offense” when you have no other team on the field. I would wager a ham sandwich that this was the brainchild of Steve Bannon who would understand the concept—coming from the world of constant attack media. So in the campaign, “the swamp” (whatever the hell that is) served nicely. However, once you’re in office at 12:00, by 12:01, it was clear that the supposed “swamp” wasn’t going anywhere so they needed a new faux enemy…and tah-dah!!!!!!!!!!! Deep State!

The deep state is not a new concept. It didn't originate with Trump or Bannon.

Never said it did. It’s a tool that is used by various politicians. I was pointing out that Bannon or someone like him who is more politically savvy decided to use the tool; the blob isn’t smart enough.

But you say, without qualification, that it doesn't exist. Is that right?

 

[candycorn]

Being non existent helps with the invisibility

The 'Deep State' is just an excuse to ignore.

Anyone who isn't republican is by definition a 'liberal' and ignored.
Members of the media are 'enemies of the people' are are ignored.
Anyone republican who contradicts Trump is 'the establishment' and is ignored.
Anyone in government who contradicts Trump is the 'deep state' and is ignored.
Anyone out of government who contradicts Trump is the 'swamp' and is ignored.

Its a rather tight circle of ignorance where there is no valid method of contradicting the president. In the minds of those who buy into that mindset, anyway.

Disagree.

Here is why.

There doesn’t seem to be any ignoring going on. What “deep state” does is create an “enemy at the gates” that creates a sense of urgency. An old saying in Politics is that if you’re not on the offensive, you’re on defense. It is hard to be on “offense” when you have no other team on the field. I would wager a ham sandwich that this was the brainchild of Steve Bannon who would understand the concept—coming from the world of constant attack media. So in the campaign, “the swamp” (whatever the hell that is) served nicely. However, once you’re in office at 12:00, by 12:01, it was clear that the supposed “swamp” wasn’t going anywhere so they needed a new faux enemy…and tah-dah!!!!!!!!!!! Deep State!

The deep state is not a new concept. It didn't originate with Trump or Bannon.

Never said it did. It’s a tool that is used by various politicians. I was pointing out that Bannon or someone like him who is more politically savvy decided to use the tool; the blob isn’t smart enough.

But you say, without qualification, that it doesn't exist. Is that right?

The swamp? As I have heard it described? No.

Deep State? I’ll give you two answers.

The short answer is no.

The longer answer is that I do believe there is something called “institutional memory” (this is probably what some people refer to as “deep state”).

 

[Skylar]

Being non existent helps with the invisibility

The 'Deep State' is just an excuse to ignore.

Anyone who isn't republican is by definition a 'liberal' and ignored.
Members of the media are 'enemies of the people' are are ignored.
Anyone republican who contradicts Trump is 'the establishment' and is ignored.
Anyone in government who contradicts Trump is the 'deep state' and is ignored.
Anyone out of government who contradicts Trump is the 'swamp' and is ignored.

Its a rather tight circle of ignorance where there is no valid method of contradicting the president. In the minds of those who buy into that mindset, anyway.

Disagree.

Here is why.

There doesn’t seem to be any ignoring going on. What “deep state” does is create an “enemy at the gates” that creates a sense of urgency. An old saying in Politics is that if you’re not on the offensive, you’re on defense. It is hard to be on “offense” when you have no other team on the field. I would wager a ham sandwich that this was the brainchild of Steve Bannon who would understand the concept—coming from the world of constant attack media. So in the campaign, “the swamp” (whatever the hell that is) served nicely. However, once you’re in office at 12:00, by 12:01, it was clear that the supposed “swamp” wasn’t going anywhere so they needed a new faux enemy…and tah-dah!!!!!!!!!!! Deep State!

The deep state is not a new concept. It didn't originate with Trump or Bannon.

Never said it did. It’s a tool that is used by various politicians. I was pointing out that Bannon or someone like him who is more politically savvy decided to use the tool; the blob isn’t smart enough.

But you say, without qualification, that it doesn't exist. Is that right?

Imagining that it does exist without evidence isn't actually evidence of its existence.

This is the break in the reasoning of most conservatives on the matter. They continue to rely on the accusation as proof of the accusations veracity.

Which is the same logic used by every conspiracy theorist from flat earthers to Truthers to Birthers.

 

[oldsoul]

a poll here showed that most conservatives would vote for Vladamir Putin before they would vote for a Democrat.

I'm curious, do you think that is a reflection on conservatives, or on democrats? Not baiting, just want to understand your perspective.

 

[oldsoul]

It is particularly humorous that the same folks whining that kids “are not being told to think” actually believe there is a “swamp” and a “deep state”…something they cannot define much less enumerate it’s member’s names.

Ok, after reading the posts relating to this, I am compelled to put my two cents in. So here goes:

The "swamp", as I see it, is the corruption, lobbying, and money involved in politics/business/culture. It is not unique to the U.S., nor is it even a modern concept. Furthermore, it is not exclusive to Washington (though it does seem to center there for our country), it is in ALL seats of power. From the U.S. Congress to the SCOTUS, to every Statehouse in the Union, to your local city council, to the boardroom of most (if not all) major corporations, to many churches/synagogues/temples, to your HOA, even in Hollywood. The "swamp" is everywhere, and nowhere at once. It's found anywhere there is power, money and influence to be peddled and people willing to peddle. The people involved? Well let's start with lobbyists, Congress (especially career members), the military leadership(not all, there are a few warriors left), cultural "leaders", Trump, Clinton, Obama, both Bushes (though Sr. is pretty much a spectator now), Carter, major business leaders (Buffet, Gates, Zuckerberg,etc.), and all the "behind the scenes 'power brokers'" that go along with them, just to name a few. Is this a bad thing? Well, no...and yes. It depends on the person/group in question. Those who wish to keep things the same (just because it's comfortable for them), and those who wish to change for the sake of change? They are the problem. Those who have well formulated, and fact based REASONING behind their stance, they are the "good guys". It's no divided along ideological lines, but rather on rational vs. emotional lines. The "swamp" is not good or bad, it just is. It's the reasoning, or lack thereof, on the part of the PEOPLE that makes it good or bad. So, sure, drain the swamp, expose the "bodies" and let's have a look. Before we do though, we had better have a plan, or the climate will be ripe for a dictator/tyrant to seize power in the vacuum.

As for the "deep state", IMHO this is little more than a conspiracy theory, in it's current context. I do believe that there are, and always have been 'power brokers' that are largely unknown, unknowable, and highly secretive (even amongst themselves) that are VERY long term thinkers. These people couldn't care any less about the "news of the day". They concern themselves with much larger things, things of lasting consequence. Things like the global balance of power over time. Things like, "are we alone in the universe?". Things like what if we are not alone? How do we prevent nuclear armageddon, regardless of who is in positions of power? How do we keep society from unraveling on a large scale.

Call them "deep state" if you want, or "Illuminati", "Freemasons", or whatever. Doesn't matter. And, no, they are not "puppet masters", though many of them wield tremendous influence.

Hopefully, this helps to shed some light on the matter, or maybe I'm just a crazy nut job... Who knows.

 

[candycorn]

a poll here showed that most conservatives would vote for Vladamir Putin before they would vote for a Democrat.

I'm curious, do you think that is a reflection on conservatives, or on democrats? Not baiting, just want to understand your perspective.

Conservatives...

 

[candycorn]

It is particularly humorous that the same folks whining that kids “are not being told to think” actually believe there is a “swamp” and a “deep state”…something they cannot define much less enumerate it’s member’s names.

Ok, after reading the posts relating to this, I am compelled to put my two cents in. So here goes:

The "swamp", as I see it, is the corruption, lobbying, and money involved in politics/business/culture. It is not unique to the U.S., nor is it even a modern concept. Furthermore, it is not exclusive to Washington (though it does seem to center there for our country), it is in ALL seats of power. From the U.S. Congress to the SCOTUS, to every Statehouse in the Union, to your local city council, to the boardroom of most (if not all) major corporations, to many churches/synagogues/temples, to your HOA, even in Hollywood. The "swamp" is everywhere, and nowhere at once. It's found anywhere there is power, money and influence to be peddled and people willing to peddle. The people involved? Well let's start with lobbyists, Congress (especially career members), the military leadership(not all, there are a few warriors left), cultural "leaders", Trump, Clinton, Obama, both Bushes (though Sr. is pretty much a spectator now), Carter, major business leaders (Buffet, Gates, Zuckerberg,etc.), and all the "behind the scenes 'power brokers'" that go along with them, just to name a few. Is this a bad thing? Well, no...and yes. It depends on the person/group in question. Those who wish to keep things the same (just because it's comfortable for them), and those who wish to change for the sake of change? They are the problem. Those who have well formulated, and fact based REASONING behind their stance, they are the "good guys". It's no divided along ideological lines, but rather on rational vs. emotional lines. The "swamp" is not good or bad, it just is. It's the reasoning, or lack thereof, on the part of the PEOPLE that makes it good or bad. So, sure, drain the swamp, expose the "bodies" and let's have a look. Before we do though, we had better have a plan, or the climate will be ripe for a dictator/tyrant to seize power in the vacuum.

As for the "deep state", IMHO this is little more than a conspiracy theory, in it's current context. I do believe that there are, and always have been 'power brokers' that are largely unknown, unknowable, and highly secretive (even amongst themselves) that are VERY long term thinkers. These people couldn't care any less about the "news of the day". They concern themselves with much larger things, things of lasting consequence. Things like the global balance of power over time. Things like, "are we alone in the universe?". Things like what if we are not alone? How do we prevent nuclear armageddon, regardless of who is in positions of power? How do we keep society from unraveling on a large scale.

Call them "deep state" if you want, or "Illuminati", "Freemasons", or whatever. Doesn't matter. And, no, they are not "puppet masters", though many of them wield tremendous influence.

Hopefully, this helps to shed some light on the matter, or maybe I'm just a crazy nut job... Who knows.

So the “swamp”, if I understand your post correctly, isn’t people, it’s the actions of the people who are in positions of power and influence? Additionally, according to you, the swamp is the people on the ballot next to the President who says he is going to “drain” it?
Sound pretty moronic.

As for the Deep State…you’re right; it’s a conspiracy theory.

 

[oldsoul]

It is particularly humorous that the same folks whining that kids “are not being told to think” actually believe there is a “swamp” and a “deep state”…something they cannot define much less enumerate it’s member’s names.

Ok, after reading the posts relating to this, I am compelled to put my two cents in. So here goes:

The "swamp", as I see it, is the corruption, lobbying, and money involved in politics/business/culture. It is not unique to the U.S., nor is it even a modern concept. Furthermore, it is not exclusive to Washington (though it does seem to center there for our country), it is in ALL seats of power. From the U.S. Congress to the SCOTUS, to every Statehouse in the Union, to your local city council, to the boardroom of most (if not all) major corporations, to many churches/synagogues/temples, to your HOA, even in Hollywood. The "swamp" is everywhere, and nowhere at once. It's found anywhere there is power, money and influence to be peddled and people willing to peddle. The people involved? Well let's start with lobbyists, Congress (especially career members), the military leadership(not all, there are a few warriors left), cultural "leaders", Trump, Clinton, Obama, both Bushes (though Sr. is pretty much a spectator now), Carter, major business leaders (Buffet, Gates, Zuckerberg,etc.), and all the "behind the scenes 'power brokers'" that go along with them, just to name a few. Is this a bad thing? Well, no...and yes. It depends on the person/group in question. Those who wish to keep things the same (just because it's comfortable for them), and those who wish to change for the sake of change? They are the problem. Those who have well formulated, and fact based REASONING behind their stance, they are the "good guys". It's no divided along ideological lines, but rather on rational vs. emotional lines. The "swamp" is not good or bad, it just is. It's the reasoning, or lack thereof, on the part of the PEOPLE that makes it good or bad. So, sure, drain the swamp, expose the "bodies" and let's have a look. Before we do though, we had better have a plan, or the climate will be ripe for a dictator/tyrant to seize power in the vacuum.

As for the "deep state", IMHO this is little more than a conspiracy theory, in it's current context. I do believe that there are, and always have been 'power brokers' that are largely unknown, unknowable, and highly secretive (even amongst themselves) that are VERY long term thinkers. These people couldn't care any less about the "news of the day". They concern themselves with much larger things, things of lasting consequence. Things like the global balance of power over time. Things like, "are we alone in the universe?". Things like what if we are not alone? How do we prevent nuclear armageddon, regardless of who is in positions of power? How do we keep society from unraveling on a large scale.

Call them "deep state" if you want, or "Illuminati", "Freemasons", or whatever. Doesn't matter. And, no, they are not "puppet masters", though many of them wield tremendous influence.

Hopefully, this helps to shed some light on the matter, or maybe I'm just a crazy nut job... Who knows.

So the “swamp”, if I understand your post correctly, isn’t people, it’s the actions of the people who are in positions of power and influence? Additionally, according to you, the swamp is the people on the ballot next to the President who says he is going to “drain” it?
Sound pretty moronic.

As for the Deep State…you’re right; it’s a conspiracy theory.

You partially understand. What you apparently missed is the INFLUENCE and MONEY. Let me give you an example:

In the town where I live there has been a culture of discrimination. Not based on race, religion or other protected status. It is based on where you are from. If you are not "from here" your business will not thrive, and you will find it difficult to gain acceptance. That's the influence part. to put it another way, if those in power do not like you, or what you stand for (your not from here) they will take measures to make your life/business difficult. It happens at all levels, and as my example shows, not just in government, though that is where it is most easily identified and corrected.

As for the money aspect. When was the last time you saw an "Average Joe" run for, and get elected to an important/influential office? It is rare. There are of course two primary reasons for this:

1. Lack of desire. Whether it be because other things are more important, or because of political apathy.
2. Lack of resources. Let's face it wealthy people tend to associate with other wealthy people. Elections are expensive and if you do not have ready access to large sums, and do not have the connections to raise funds through donations, you face a steep uphill battle just to let the people know you are running.

As for "the deep state", no it is not a conspiracy theory. It is quite real. However, it is not interested in current events, or short term politics, and yet it is. It is the people who influence the advisors. One could argue that we are ALL part of the "deep state", and none of us are at the same time. Even God, and Satan (or whatever names you give to good and evil) are a part of it. Our very conscience is a part, even people who are long dead are. And yet, no one is, because it is a concept, much like space. It is everywhere, and nowhere. It is a place, but has no physical attributes. It is nearly impossible to fully comprehend and yet is simple to understand. It is a bit of a paradox I suppose, because it is, without being.

I know, pretty deep philosophical double talk, but it's the best I can do.

 

[candycorn]

So the “swamp”, if I understand your post correctly, isn’t people, it’s the actions of the people who are in positions of power and influence? Additionally, according to you, the swamp is the people on the ballot next to the President who says he is going to “drain” it?
Sound pretty moronic.

As for the Deep State…you’re right; it’s a conspiracy theory.

You partially understand. What you apparently missed is the INFLUENCE and MONEY. Let me give you an example:

In the town where I live there has been a culture of discrimination. Not based on race, religion or other protected status. It is based on where you are from. If you are not "from here" your business will not thrive, and you will find it difficult to gain acceptance. That's the influence part. to put it another way, if those in power do not like you, or what you stand for (your not from here) they will take measures to make your life/business difficult. It happens at all levels, and as my example shows, not just in government, though that is where it is most easily identified and corrected.

As for the money aspect. When was the last time you saw an "Average Joe" run for, and get elected to an important/influential office? It is rare. There are of course two primary reasons for this:

1. Lack of desire. Whether it be because other things are more important, or because of political apathy.
2. Lack of resources. Let's face it wealthy people tend to associate with other wealthy people. Elections are expensive and if you do not have ready access to large sums, and do not have the connections to raise funds through donations, you face a steep uphill battle just to let the people know you are running.

As for the influence, okay….if you say so. It sounds as though the businesses that are getting “measures” taken against them could have a case with the State Attorney General or County Sheriff. I don’t know what you mean by “measures”…can you give some examples using names of businesses and what happened to them so I can do some research?

As for the money…when was the last time you saw an “average joe” defend himself in court, do his own surgery, start his own 401k (which you can do by the way), etc….? Politics is a profession just like anything else. In my opinion, it is best left to the professionals. Do with that what you will. But I can guarantee that the other nations are not sending “average joes” or the average “Sven”, “Juan”, “Ivan”, “Mohammed”, or “Pierre” to the negotiating table when they bargain with emerging markets, the UN, World Bank, ITO, etc. From the looks of things, we have Nikki Haley who seems to be totally clueless at her position and totally vapid at what the role of UN Ambassador is. You want your plumber to get elected and start negotiating arms treaties? I don’t. I’ll take a State Department expert over my plumber every day of the week.

As for "the deep state", no it is not a conspiracy theory. It is quite real. However, it is not interested in current events, or short term politics, and yet it is. It is the people who influence the advisors. One could argue that we are ALL part of the "deep state", and none of us are at the same time. Even God, and Satan (or whatever names you give to good and evil) are a part of it. Our very conscience is a part, even people who are long dead are. And yet, no one is, because it is a concept, much like space. It is everywhere, and nowhere. It is a place, but has no physical attributes. It is nearly impossible to fully comprehend and yet is simple to understand. It is a bit of a paradox I suppose, because it is, without being.

I know, pretty deep philosophical double talk, but it's the best I can do.

Yes, the “deep state” is conspiracy theory. It is a tool that is made up to act as a fall guy when you can’t achieve your goals. If one is the parent of a kid and they bring up some cockamamie nebulous entity that kept them from doing their chores, passing their class, or not finishing their broccoli, the parent would demand something a bit more tangible than “they” kept me from doing it. That Trump (he is the latest) puts this crap out there and some people accept it says much more about his supporters than it does about him; he’s been chiseling people for decades…those that accept it are the real dopes.

 

[oldsoul]

So the “swamp”, if I understand your post correctly, isn’t people, it’s the actions of the people who are in positions of power and influence? Additionally, according to you, the swamp is the people on the ballot next to the President who says he is going to “drain” it?
Sound pretty moronic.

As for the Deep State…you’re right; it’s a conspiracy theory.

You partially understand. What you apparently missed is the INFLUENCE and MONEY. Let me give you an example:

In the town where I live there has been a culture of discrimination. Not based on race, religion or other protected status. It is based on where you are from. If you are not "from here" your business will not thrive, and you will find it difficult to gain acceptance. That's the influence part. to put it another way, if those in power do not like you, or what you stand for (your not from here) they will take measures to make your life/business difficult. It happens at all levels, and as my example shows, not just in government, though that is where it is most easily identified and corrected.

As for the money aspect. When was the last time you saw an "Average Joe" run for, and get elected to an important/influential office? It is rare. There are of course two primary reasons for this:

1. Lack of desire. Whether it be because other things are more important, or because of political apathy.
2. Lack of resources. Let's face it wealthy people tend to associate with other wealthy people. Elections are expensive and if you do not have ready access to large sums, and do not have the connections to raise funds through donations, you face a steep uphill battle just to let the people know you are running.

As for the influence, okay….if you say so. It sounds as though the businesses that are getting “measures” taken against them could have a case with the State Attorney General or County Sheriff. I don’t know what you mean by “measures”…can you give some examples using names of businesses and what happened to them so I can do some research?

As for the money…when was the last time you saw an “average joe” defend himself in court, do his own surgery, start his own 401k (which you can do by the way), etc….? Politics is a profession just like anything else. In my opinion, it is best left to the professionals. Do with that what you will. But I can guarantee that the other nations are not sending “average joes” or the average “Sven”, “Juan”, “Ivan”, “Mohammed”, or “Pierre” to the negotiating table when they bargain with emerging markets, the UN, World Bank, ITO, etc. From the looks of things, we have Nikki Haley who seems to be totally clueless at her position and totally vapid at what the role of UN Ambassador is. You want your plumber to get elected and start negotiating arms treaties? I don’t. I’ll take a State Department expert over my plumber every day of the week.

As for "the deep state", no it is not a conspiracy theory. It is quite real. However, it is not interested in current events, or short term politics, and yet it is. It is the people who influence the advisors. One could argue that we are ALL part of the "deep state", and none of us are at the same time. Even God, and Satan (or whatever names you give to good and evil) are a part of it. Our very conscience is a part, even people who are long dead are. And yet, no one is, because it is a concept, much like space. It is everywhere, and nowhere. It is a place, but has no physical attributes. It is nearly impossible to fully comprehend and yet is simple to understand. It is a bit of a paradox I suppose, because it is, without being.

I know, pretty deep philosophical double talk, but it's the best I can do.

Yes, the “deep state” is conspiracy theory. It is a tool that is made up to act as a fall guy when you can’t achieve your goals. If one is the parent of a kid and they bring up some cockamamie nebulous entity that kept them from doing their chores, passing their class, or not finishing their broccoli, the parent would demand something a bit more tangible than “they” kept me from doing it. That Trump (he is the latest) puts this crap out there and some people accept it says much more about his supporters than it does about him; he’s been chiseling people for decades…those that accept it are the real dopes.

I don’t know what you mean by “measures”…can you give some examples using names of businesses and what happened to them so I can do some research?

I must politely decline. Two reasons for this: 1)It's irrelevant to the point I am expressing. 2)I would disclose my location, something I guard jealously. I would much prefer that no one knows where to find me. I am a private person, for reasons I choose not to discuss.

Politics is a profession just like anything else. In my opinion, it is best left to the professionals.

On this we shall have to agree to disagree. I happened to believe in a government "of the people, by the people." By definition, that is your "average joe".

You want your plumber to get elected and start negotiating arms treaties? I don’t. I’ll take a State Department expert over my plumber every day of the week.

Apparently I was unclear. I agree, elected officials should not be "negotiating arms treaties". THAT IS best left to professionals. I do, however, want 535 "average joes" debating, and deciding if the proposed treaties are a good move for our country, after being properly informed, and considering their respective constituencies' wishes, of course.

Yes, the “deep state” is conspiracy theory. It is a tool that is made up to act as a fall guy when you can’t achieve your goals

Sadly, that is how it is being used by Trump.

That Trump (he is the latest) puts this crap out there and some people accept it says much more about his supporters than it does about him; he’s been chiseling people for decades…those that accept it are the real dopes.

Agreed. Remember just a few years ago when the Obama administration was saying they were unable to accomplish this or that because of "obstructionist republicans, or GWB? Same thing, different name.

 

[candycorn]

So the “swamp”, if I understand your post correctly, isn’t people, it’s the actions of the people who are in positions of power and influence? Additionally, according to you, the swamp is the people on the ballot next to the President who says he is going to “drain” it?
Sound pretty moronic.

As for the Deep State…you’re right; it’s a conspiracy theory.

You partially understand. What you apparently missed is the INFLUENCE and MONEY. Let me give you an example:

In the town where I live there has been a culture of discrimination. Not based on race, religion or other protected status. It is based on where you are from. If you are not "from here" your business will not thrive, and you will find it difficult to gain acceptance. That's the influence part. to put it another way, if those in power do not like you, or what you stand for (your not from here) they will take measures to make your life/business difficult. It happens at all levels, and as my example shows, not just in government, though that is where it is most easily identified and corrected.

As for the money aspect. When was the last time you saw an "Average Joe" run for, and get elected to an important/influential office? It is rare. There are of course two primary reasons for this:

1. Lack of desire. Whether it be because other things are more important, or because of political apathy.
2. Lack of resources. Let's face it wealthy people tend to associate with other wealthy people. Elections are expensive and if you do not have ready access to large sums, and do not have the connections to raise funds through donations, you face a steep uphill battle just to let the people know you are running.

As for the influence, okay….if you say so. It sounds as though the businesses that are getting “measures” taken against them could have a case with the State Attorney General or County Sheriff. I don’t know what you mean by “measures”…can you give some examples using names of businesses and what happened to them so I can do some research?

As for the money…when was the last time you saw an “average joe” defend himself in court, do his own surgery, start his own 401k (which you can do by the way), etc….? Politics is a profession just like anything else. In my opinion, it is best left to the professionals. Do with that what you will. But I can guarantee that the other nations are not sending “average joes” or the average “Sven”, “Juan”, “Ivan”, “Mohammed”, or “Pierre” to the negotiating table when they bargain with emerging markets, the UN, World Bank, ITO, etc. From the looks of things, we have Nikki Haley who seems to be totally clueless at her position and totally vapid at what the role of UN Ambassador is. You want your plumber to get elected and start negotiating arms treaties? I don’t. I’ll take a State Department expert over my plumber every day of the week.

As for "the deep state", no it is not a conspiracy theory. It is quite real. However, it is not interested in current events, or short term politics, and yet it is. It is the people who influence the advisors. One could argue that we are ALL part of the "deep state", and none of us are at the same time. Even God, and Satan (or whatever names you give to good and evil) are a part of it. Our very conscience is a part, even people who are long dead are. And yet, no one is, because it is a concept, much like space. It is everywhere, and nowhere. It is a place, but has no physical attributes. It is nearly impossible to fully comprehend and yet is simple to understand. It is a bit of a paradox I suppose, because it is, without being.

I know, pretty deep philosophical double talk, but it's the best I can do.

Yes, the “deep state” is conspiracy theory. It is a tool that is made up to act as a fall guy when you can’t achieve your goals. If one is the parent of a kid and they bring up some cockamamie nebulous entity that kept them from doing their chores, passing their class, or not finishing their broccoli, the parent would demand something a bit more tangible than “they” kept me from doing it. That Trump (he is the latest) puts this crap out there and some people accept it says much more about his supporters than it does about him; he’s been chiseling people for decades…those that accept it are the real dopes.

I don’t know what you mean by “measures”…can you give some examples using names of businesses and what happened to them so I can do some research?

I must politely decline. Two reasons for this: 1)It's irrelevant to the point I am expressing. 2)I would disclose my location, something I guard jealously. I would much prefer that no one knows where to find me. I am a private person, for reasons I choose not to discuss.

It is directly relevant to the point you’re expressing. You say “something happened” to outsiders and that is what you think happens on main street USA? Gee, how did Wal Mart make it when there was Monty Ward, Sears, JC Penny, etc… all established “big boys”? They built a better mouse trap. How did Amazon.com supplant Wal Mart? They built a better mouse trap. How did Google destroy Yahoo? They’re better. The US Auto industry was creamed by the imports…how did that happen? They built a better car and sold it for less.

Politics is a profession just like anything else. In my opinion, it is best left to the professionals.

On this we shall have to agree to disagree. I happened to believe in a government "of the people, by the people." By definition, that is your "average joe".

Okay. Just know the other nations of the planet are not so concerned about running government day camp where everyone gets to play.

You want your plumber to get elected and start negotiating arms treaties? I don’t. I’ll take a State Department expert over my plumber every day of the week.

Apparently I was unclear. I agree, elected officials should not be "negotiating arms treaties". THAT IS best left to professionals. I do, however, want 535 “average joes" debating, and deciding if the proposed treaties are a good move for our country, after being properly informed, and considering their respective constituencies' wishes, of course.

Not to paint with too broad a brush but those “average joes” are likely to believe that someone like Ethan Hawk exists and think Olivia Pope will show up with something incriminating to sway the vote at the last second.

That Trump (he is the latest) puts this crap out there and some people accept it says much more about his supporters than it does about him; he’s been chiseling people for decades…those that accept it are the real dopes.

Agreed. Remember just a few years ago when the Obama administration was saying they were unable to accomplish this or that because of "obstructionist republicans, or GWB? Same thing, different name.

No. Obstructionists Republicans do exist in Congress; as do Obstructionist Democrats in Congress. It is how the game is played given our system. There is no mysterious entity wielding power from the darkened corners.

 

[oldsoul]

So the “swamp”, if I understand your post correctly, isn’t people, it’s the actions of the people who are in positions of power and influence? Additionally, according to you, the swamp is the people on the ballot next to the President who says he is going to “drain” it?
Sound pretty moronic.

As for the Deep State…you’re right; it’s a conspiracy theory.

You partially understand. What you apparently missed is the INFLUENCE and MONEY. Let me give you an example:

In the town where I live there has been a culture of discrimination. Not based on race, religion or other protected status. It is based on where you are from. If you are not "from here" your business will not thrive, and you will find it difficult to gain acceptance. That's the influence part. to put it another way, if those in power do not like you, or what you stand for (your not from here) they will take measures to make your life/business difficult. It happens at all levels, and as my example shows, not just in government, though that is where it is most easily identified and corrected.

As for the money aspect. When was the last time you saw an "Average Joe" run for, and get elected to an important/influential office? It is rare. There are of course two primary reasons for this:

1. Lack of desire. Whether it be because other things are more important, or because of political apathy.
2. Lack of resources. Let's face it wealthy people tend to associate with other wealthy people. Elections are expensive and if you do not have ready access to large sums, and do not have the connections to raise funds through donations, you face a steep uphill battle just to let the people know you are running.

As for the influence, okay….if you say so. It sounds as though the businesses that are getting “measures” taken against them could have a case with the State Attorney General or County Sheriff. I don’t know what you mean by “measures”…can you give some examples using names of businesses and what happened to them so I can do some research?

As for the money…when was the last time you saw an “average joe” defend himself in court, do his own surgery, start his own 401k (which you can do by the way), etc….? Politics is a profession just like anything else. In my opinion, it is best left to the professionals. Do with that what you will. But I can guarantee that the other nations are not sending “average joes” or the average “Sven”, “Juan”, “Ivan”, “Mohammed”, or “Pierre” to the negotiating table when they bargain with emerging markets, the UN, World Bank, ITO, etc. From the looks of things, we have Nikki Haley who seems to be totally clueless at her position and totally vapid at what the role of UN Ambassador is. You want your plumber to get elected and start negotiating arms treaties? I don’t. I’ll take a State Department expert over my plumber every day of the week.

As for "the deep state", no it is not a conspiracy theory. It is quite real. However, it is not interested in current events, or short term politics, and yet it is. It is the people who influence the advisors. One could argue that we are ALL part of the "deep state", and none of us are at the same time. Even God, and Satan (or whatever names you give to good and evil) are a part of it. Our very conscience is a part, even people who are long dead are. And yet, no one is, because it is a concept, much like space. It is everywhere, and nowhere. It is a place, but has no physical attributes. It is nearly impossible to fully comprehend and yet is simple to understand. It is a bit of a paradox I suppose, because it is, without being.

I know, pretty deep philosophical double talk, but it's the best I can do.

Yes, the “deep state” is conspiracy theory. It is a tool that is made up to act as a fall guy when you can’t achieve your goals. If one is the parent of a kid and they bring up some cockamamie nebulous entity that kept them from doing their chores, passing their class, or not finishing their broccoli, the parent would demand something a bit more tangible than “they” kept me from doing it. That Trump (he is the latest) puts this crap out there and some people accept it says much more about his supporters than it does about him; he’s been chiseling people for decades…those that accept it are the real dopes.

I don’t know what you mean by “measures”…can you give some examples using names of businesses and what happened to them so I can do some research?

I must politely decline. Two reasons for this: 1)It's irrelevant to the point I am expressing. 2)I would disclose my location, something I guard jealously. I would much prefer that no one knows where to find me. I am a private person, for reasons I choose not to discuss.

It is directly relevant to the point you’re expressing. You say “something happened” to outsiders and that is what you think happens on main street USA? Gee, how did Wal Mart make it when there was Monty Ward, Sears, JC Penny, etc… all established “big boys”? They built a better mouse trap. How did Amazon.com supplant Wal Mart? They built a better mouse trap. How did Google destroy Yahoo? They’re better. The US Auto industry was creamed by the imports…how did that happen? They built a better car and sold it for less.

Politics is a profession just like anything else. In my opinion, it is best left to the professionals.

On this we shall have to agree to disagree. I happened to believe in a government "of the people, by the people." By definition, that is your "average joe".

Okay. Just know the other nations of the planet are not so concerned about running government day camp where everyone gets to play.

You want your plumber to get elected and start negotiating arms treaties? I don’t. I’ll take a State Department expert over my plumber every day of the week.

Apparently I was unclear. I agree, elected officials should not be "negotiating arms treaties". THAT IS best left to professionals. I do, however, want 535 “average joes" debating, and deciding if the proposed treaties are a good move for our country, after being properly informed, and considering their respective constituencies' wishes, of course.

Not to paint with too broad a brush but those “average joes” are likely to believe that someone like Ethan Hawk exists and think Olivia Pope will show up with something incriminating to sway the vote at the last second.

That Trump (he is the latest) puts this crap out there and some people accept it says much more about his supporters than it does about him; he’s been chiseling people for decades…those that accept it are the real dopes.

Agreed. Remember just a few years ago when the Obama administration was saying they were unable to accomplish this or that because of "obstructionist republicans, or GWB? Same thing, different name.

No. Obstructionists Republicans do exist in Congress; as do Obstructionist Democrats in Congress. It is how the game is played given our system. There is no mysterious entity wielding power from the darkened corners.

It is directly relevant to the point you’re expressing. You say “something happened” to outsiders and that is what you think happens on main street USA? Gee, how did Wal Mart make it when there was Monty Ward, Sears, JC Penny, etc… all established “big boys”? They built a better mouse trap. How did Amazon.com supplant Wal Mart? They built a better mouse trap. How did Google destroy Yahoo? They’re better. The US Auto industry was creamed by the imports…how did that happen? They built a better car and sold it for less.

You are speaking of two very different types of business, on two very different scales. Yes, they all started relatively small, then grew quite large. However, comparing a local plumber to Walmart, is asinine.

Not to paint with too broad a brush but those “average joes” are likely to believe that someone like Ethan Hawk exists and think Olivia Pope will show up with something incriminating to sway the vote at the last second.

You really do have quite a low opinion of the American people don't you? It does explain why you believe that only trained professionals should make all the important decisions. You fail to understand that many, by no means all, average Americans are really quite capable of understanding, and distinguishing the difference between reality and fiction.

No. Obstructionists Republicans do exist in Congress; as do Obstructionist Democrats in Congress. It is how the game is played given our system. There is no mysterious entity wielding power from the darkened corners

You have done a far better job of describing the Washington "Swamp" than I have. And yet, you claim to not know what it is. The fact is, you just call it something different.

See, we are really not all that dissimilar after all. We just look at things differently, and make different conclusions. Ain't American great? We can disagree, discuss, and come to the realization that we actually agree to a great extent. The only real difference I see is in perspective. And faith in the American people.

 

[candycorn]

So the “swamp”, if I understand your post correctly, isn’t people, it’s the actions of the people who are in positions of power and influence? Additionally, according to you, the swamp is the people on the ballot next to the President who says he is going to “drain” it?
Sound pretty moronic.

As for the Deep State…you’re right; it’s a conspiracy theory.

You partially understand. What you apparently missed is the INFLUENCE and MONEY. Let me give you an example:

In the town where I live there has been a culture of discrimination. Not based on race, religion or other protected status. It is based on where you are from. If you are not "from here" your business will not thrive, and you will find it difficult to gain acceptance. That's the influence part. to put it another way, if those in power do not like you, or what you stand for (your not from here) they will take measures to make your life/business difficult. It happens at all levels, and as my example shows, not just in government, though that is where it is most easily identified and corrected.

As for the money aspect. When was the last time you saw an "Average Joe" run for, and get elected to an important/influential office? It is rare. There are of course two primary reasons for this:

1. Lack of desire. Whether it be because other things are more important, or because of political apathy.
2. Lack of resources. Let's face it wealthy people tend to associate with other wealthy people. Elections are expensive and if you do not have ready access to large sums, and do not have the connections to raise funds through donations, you face a steep uphill battle just to let the people know you are running.

As for the influence, okay….if you say so. It sounds as though the businesses that are getting “measures” taken against them could have a case with the State Attorney General or County Sheriff. I don’t know what you mean by “measures”…can you give some examples using names of businesses and what happened to them so I can do some research?

As for the money…when was the last time you saw an “average joe” defend himself in court, do his own surgery, start his own 401k (which you can do by the way), etc….? Politics is a profession just like anything else. In my opinion, it is best left to the professionals. Do with that what you will. But I can guarantee that the other nations are not sending “average joes” or the average “Sven”, “Juan”, “Ivan”, “Mohammed”, or “Pierre” to the negotiating table when they bargain with emerging markets, the UN, World Bank, ITO, etc. From the looks of things, we have Nikki Haley who seems to be totally clueless at her position and totally vapid at what the role of UN Ambassador is. You want your plumber to get elected and start negotiating arms treaties? I don’t. I’ll take a State Department expert over my plumber every day of the week.

As for "the deep state", no it is not a conspiracy theory. It is quite real. However, it is not interested in current events, or short term politics, and yet it is. It is the people who influence the advisors. One could argue that we are ALL part of the "deep state", and none of us are at the same time. Even God, and Satan (or whatever names you give to good and evil) are a part of it. Our very conscience is a part, even people who are long dead are. And yet, no one is, because it is a concept, much like space. It is everywhere, and nowhere. It is a place, but has no physical attributes. It is nearly impossible to fully comprehend and yet is simple to understand. It is a bit of a paradox I suppose, because it is, without being.

I know, pretty deep philosophical double talk, but it's the best I can do.

Yes, the “deep state” is conspiracy theory. It is a tool that is made up to act as a fall guy when you can’t achieve your goals. If one is the parent of a kid and they bring up some cockamamie nebulous entity that kept them from doing their chores, passing their class, or not finishing their broccoli, the parent would demand something a bit more tangible than “they” kept me from doing it. That Trump (he is the latest) puts this crap out there and some people accept it says much more about his supporters than it does about him; he’s been chiseling people for decades…those that accept it are the real dopes.

I don’t know what you mean by “measures”…can you give some examples using names of businesses and what happened to them so I can do some research?

I must politely decline. Two reasons for this: 1)It's irrelevant to the point I am expressing. 2)I would disclose my location, something I guard jealously. I would much prefer that no one knows where to find me. I am a private person, for reasons I choose not to discuss.

It is directly relevant to the point you’re expressing. You say “something happened” to outsiders and that is what you think happens on main street USA? Gee, how did Wal Mart make it when there was Monty Ward, Sears, JC Penny, etc… all established “big boys”? They built a better mouse trap. How did Amazon.com supplant Wal Mart? They built a better mouse trap. How did Google destroy Yahoo? They’re better. The US Auto industry was creamed by the imports…how did that happen? They built a better car and sold it for less.

Politics is a profession just like anything else. In my opinion, it is best left to the professionals.

On this we shall have to agree to disagree. I happened to believe in a government "of the people, by the people." By definition, that is your "average joe".

Okay. Just know the other nations of the planet are not so concerned about running government day camp where everyone gets to play.

You want your plumber to get elected and start negotiating arms treaties? I don’t. I’ll take a State Department expert over my plumber every day of the week.

Apparently I was unclear. I agree, elected officials should not be "negotiating arms treaties". THAT IS best left to professionals. I do, however, want 535 “average joes" debating, and deciding if the proposed treaties are a good move for our country, after being properly informed, and considering their respective constituencies' wishes, of course.

Not to paint with too broad a brush but those “average joes” are likely to believe that someone like Ethan Hawk exists and think Olivia Pope will show up with something incriminating to sway the vote at the last second.

That Trump (he is the latest) puts this crap out there and some people accept it says much more about his supporters than it does about him; he’s been chiseling people for decades…those that accept it are the real dopes.

Agreed. Remember just a few years ago when the Obama administration was saying they were unable to accomplish this or that because of "obstructionist republicans, or GWB? Same thing, different name.

No. Obstructionists Republicans do exist in Congress; as do Obstructionist Democrats in Congress. It is how the game is played given our system. There is no mysterious entity wielding power from the darkened corners.

It is directly relevant to the point you’re expressing. You say “something happened” to outsiders and that is what you think happens on main street USA? Gee, how did Wal Mart make it when there was Monty Ward, Sears, JC Penny, etc… all established “big boys”? They built a better mouse trap. How did Amazon.com supplant Wal Mart? They built a better mouse trap. How did Google destroy Yahoo? They’re better. The US Auto industry was creamed by the imports…how did that happen? They built a better car and sold it for less.

You are speaking of two very different types of business, on two very different scales. Yes, they all started relatively small, then grew quite large. However, comparing a local plumber to Walmart, is asinine.

Well, you won’t give details. I did give examples on how the NKOB did beat the long established and well endowed at their own game.
The macro vs. micro argument, in this situation is silly.

Not to paint with too broad a brush but those “average joes” are likely to believe that someone like Ethan Hawk exists and think Olivia Pope will show up with something incriminating to sway the vote at the last second.

You really do have quite a low opinion of the American people don’t you?

No.

It does explain why you believe that only trained professionals should make all the important decisions.

Okay, next time you need to have a procedure done or sell your house, don’t go to the doctor or have a real estate agent/realtor handle the sale. See how well you do compared to others. Politics is a profession. Sorry, but it is. Thinking a plumber or florist or seamstress can (or should) try to understand the intricacies of multi-national treaties is, well, stupid.

You fail to understand that many, by no means all, average Americans are really quite capable of understanding, and distinguishing the difference between reality and fiction.

I’m sure there are a great many who do. Again, I didn’t want to paint with too broad a brush and the examples given were just the latest pop culture references I could come up with.

The “average joe” has zero idea of the range of a SLBM for example…how long subs can remain at sea, what parts of the government stay open during a government shutdown, etc. You hear it all the time that many Americans can’t find Iran on a map or something similarly outrageous. Would these people get elected? Well, they are the average people….You want the “average joe” to be spending our tax monies….and they likely couldn’t tell you about the importance of potential hotspots like Gaza, Golan Heights, Siani Peninsula, Chechnia (sp?)….

No. Obstructionists Republicans do exist in Congress; as do Obstructionist Democrats in Congress. It is how the game is played given our system. There is no mysterious entity wielding power from the darkened corners

You have done a far better job of describing the Washington "Swamp" than I have. And yet, you claim to not know what it is. The fact is, you just call it something different.

What would that be? We have obstructionist politicians?
That is what the swamp consists of now? Again, this amorphous body is just a figment of the imagination.

See, we are really not all that dissimilar after all. We just look at things differently, and make different conclusions. Ain't American great? We can disagree, discuss, and come to the realization that we actually agree to a great extent. The only real difference I see is in perspective. And faith in the American people.

Never thought we were dissimilar….
I prefer to have a professional at the helm of the ship of state. It has proven over time to be an exceedingly intelligent thing to do. Look at this military parade fiasco for example….

 

[candycorn]

I know this is edited for effect but here is evidence of the “average joes” at work:



I prefer people who know where our enemies are…also people who know who our enemies are; unlike the blob

 

[AveryJarhman]

What happened to us? Is anyone else wondering this?

Nope.

I think people understand the issues just fine. But "finding that solution to health care" just isn't that important when you have a crazy person in the White House with people like you making excuses for him every day.

On some level, the people on the right knew they screwed this up, but they simply can't admit it to themselves, much less the rest of us.

I'd love to really fix immigration or the health care problem. But when you have a sucking chest wound, you don't worry about a hang nail.

Trump is a sucking chest wound.

#TheLargerIssue #Fatherlessness #ChildNeglectMaltreatment #MentalHealth #Solutions

Hello, Joe B. I voted for Donald Trump.

Would you prefer I voted for Mrs. Hillary Clinton, a predatory, pandering politician who once callously characterized as "Super Predators" a significant population of 'Childhood Trauma (#ACEs) victims who THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, experienced America's potentially life scarring SYSTEMIC & GENERATIONAL Culture of Black or African American Child Abuse, Emotional Neglect and Maltreatment that evolved from America's multi-generational, ignorant, once legal Culture of Racism!

I am referring to a Culture of Child Abuse, Emotional Neglect, Abandonment and Maltreatment responsible for popular American urban story-TRUTH-tellers and 'Childhood Trauma' (#ACEs) victims the late Tupac Shakur (born 1971) and Mr. Barack "My Brother's Keeper" Obama White House guest and friend Kendrick Lamar (born 1987) vividly describing in their American art and interviews the "T.H.U.G.L.I.F.E." and "Good Kid, m.A.A.d. City" Child Abuse Cultures prevalent in far too many American communities.

I am referring to a Culture of Systemic and Generational CHILD ABUSE that THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, deprived Tupac and Kendrick, their childhood friends, as well as many of their elementary and JHS classmates from experiencing a SAFE, fairly or wonderfully happy American kid childhood.

Sadly, the traumatic, potentially life-scarring Criminal Child Abuse and Emotional Abandonment each of these men speaks about experiencing during a critical period of human/childhood development, resulted with them maturing into emotionally ill adults revealing in public they’ve been experiencing acute depression as well as Suic*dal Thoughts for most of their lives.

Joe B., the same Culture of African American Child Abuse, Neglect and Maltreatment that for more than 30 years has been inspiring significant numbers of popular urban story-TRUTH-tellers to compose and promote American music art HATEFULLY informing our world that American girls, women and MOTHERS of African descent should be viewed as less than human *itches, *hores, 'hoes' or "THOTS" unworthy of being treated with basic human respect. (THOT = "That Hoe Over There")

Unfortunately, it's plainly evident Kendrick, Tupac as well as untold numbers of American children are being raised, nurtured and socialized by moms experiencing some type of illness preventing and impeding them from embracing and following their innate, natural maternal instinct to protect their child or children from harm.

Joe B., perhaps I'm wrong but *something* is preventing significant numbers of black or American moms of African descent from recognizing that placing ABOVE ALL ELSE the emotional well being of our Nation's most precious and cherished assets, will most likely result with a fairly or wonderfully happy child maturing into a reasonably responsible teen and adult citizen caring about their own well being (*May 18, 2015 - Rise in Suic!de by Black Children Surprises Researchers - The New York Times*), as well as embracing compassion, empathy and respect for their peaceful or less fortunate neighbors.

Recently 'Childhood Trauma' (#ACEs) victim-survivor Oprah Winfrey shared Medical Research bolstering the late popular American urban story-TRUTH-teller and 'Childhood Trauma' (#ACEs) victim Tupac Shakur's (often misinterpreted) #T_H_U_G_L_I_F_E Child Abuse, Emotional Neglect, Abandonment and Maltreatment *AWARENESS-PREVENTION* concept!

"The Hate U Give Little Infants Fvvks *EVERYONE"* ~Tupac Shakur

“We need more people who care; you know what I’m saying? We need more women, mothers, fathers, we need more of that…” ~Tupac Shakur

Unfortunately, before he gained the confidence to properly promote his #T_H_U_G_L_I_F_E Child Abuse *AWARENESS-PREVENTION* concept, Tupac was brutally murdered by OTHER emotionally or mentally ill victims of America's Culture of African American Child Abuse, Neglect and Emotional Maltreatment evolving from America's multi-generational, ignorant, once legal Culture of Racism.

However, it is not too late to join Tupac, Oprah and Dr. Nadine Burke Harris, MD, pediatrician & CEO of 'The Center For Youth Wellness', in passionately calling for a National MOVEMENT educating American & foreign born primary child caregivers about a potentially life scarring medical disease/condition:

"Childhood Trauma" aka
"Adverse Childhood Experiences" (#ACEs)

___
During a March 11, 2018 '60 Minutes' segment titled, "Treating Trauma," Oprah Winfrey, a 'Childhood Trauma' (#ACEs) victim-survivor, shared knowledge regarding America's easily PREVENTABLE, though potentially life scarring *CHILD CARE* PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS.

Knowledge Oprah exuberantly declares is a "game changer."

YouTube search terms: "Oprah Winfrey, Fixing The 'Hole In Your Soul'"



Peace.
___
American *(Children's)* Lives Matter; Take Pride In Parenting; *End Our National Epidemic of Child Abuse and Neglect*; End Community Violence, Police Anxiety & Educator's Frustrations

 

[oldsoul]

You partially understand. What you apparently missed is the INFLUENCE and MONEY. Let me give you an example:

In the town where I live there has been a culture of discrimination. Not based on race, religion or other protected status. It is based on where you are from. If you are not "from here" your business will not thrive, and you will find it difficult to gain acceptance. That's the influence part. to put it another way, if those in power do not like you, or what you stand for (your not from here) they will take measures to make your life/business difficult. It happens at all levels, and as my example shows, not just in government, though that is where it is most easily identified and corrected.

As for the money aspect. When was the last time you saw an "Average Joe" run for, and get elected to an important/influential office? It is rare. There are of course two primary reasons for this:

1. Lack of desire. Whether it be because other things are more important, or because of political apathy.
2. Lack of resources. Let's face it wealthy people tend to associate with other wealthy people. Elections are expensive and if you do not have ready access to large sums, and do not have the connections to raise funds through donations, you face a steep uphill battle just to let the people know you are running.

As for the influence, okay….if you say so. It sounds as though the businesses that are getting “measures” taken against them could have a case with the State Attorney General or County Sheriff. I don’t know what you mean by “measures”…can you give some examples using names of businesses and what happened to them so I can do some research?

As for the money…when was the last time you saw an “average joe” defend himself in court, do his own surgery, start his own 401k (which you can do by the way), etc….? Politics is a profession just like anything else. In my opinion, it is best left to the professionals. Do with that what you will. But I can guarantee that the other nations are not sending “average joes” or the average “Sven”, “Juan”, “Ivan”, “Mohammed”, or “Pierre” to the negotiating table when they bargain with emerging markets, the UN, World Bank, ITO, etc. From the looks of things, we have Nikki Haley who seems to be totally clueless at her position and totally vapid at what the role of UN Ambassador is. You want your plumber to get elected and start negotiating arms treaties? I don’t. I’ll take a State Department expert over my plumber every day of the week.

As for "the deep state", no it is not a conspiracy theory. It is quite real. However, it is not interested in current events, or short term politics, and yet it is. It is the people who influence the advisors. One could argue that we are ALL part of the "deep state", and none of us are at the same time. Even God, and Satan (or whatever names you give to good and evil) are a part of it. Our very conscience is a part, even people who are long dead are. And yet, no one is, because it is a concept, much like space. It is everywhere, and nowhere. It is a place, but has no physical attributes. It is nearly impossible to fully comprehend and yet is simple to understand. It is a bit of a paradox I suppose, because it is, without being.

I know, pretty deep philosophical double talk, but it's the best I can do.

Yes, the “deep state” is conspiracy theory. It is a tool that is made up to act as a fall guy when you can’t achieve your goals. If one is the parent of a kid and they bring up some cockamamie nebulous entity that kept them from doing their chores, passing their class, or not finishing their broccoli, the parent would demand something a bit more tangible than “they” kept me from doing it. That Trump (he is the latest) puts this crap out there and some people accept it says much more about his supporters than it does about him; he’s been chiseling people for decades…those that accept it are the real dopes.

I don’t know what you mean by “measures”…can you give some examples using names of businesses and what happened to them so I can do some research?

I must politely decline. Two reasons for this: 1)It's irrelevant to the point I am expressing. 2)I would disclose my location, something I guard jealously. I would much prefer that no one knows where to find me. I am a private person, for reasons I choose not to discuss.

It is directly relevant to the point you’re expressing. You say “something happened” to outsiders and that is what you think happens on main street USA? Gee, how did Wal Mart make it when there was Monty Ward, Sears, JC Penny, etc… all established “big boys”? They built a better mouse trap. How did Amazon.com supplant Wal Mart? They built a better mouse trap. How did Google destroy Yahoo? They’re better. The US Auto industry was creamed by the imports…how did that happen? They built a better car and sold it for less.

Politics is a profession just like anything else. In my opinion, it is best left to the professionals.

On this we shall have to agree to disagree. I happened to believe in a government "of the people, by the people." By definition, that is your "average joe".

Okay. Just know the other nations of the planet are not so concerned about running government day camp where everyone gets to play.

You want your plumber to get elected and start negotiating arms treaties? I don’t. I’ll take a State Department expert over my plumber every day of the week.

Apparently I was unclear. I agree, elected officials should not be "negotiating arms treaties". THAT IS best left to professionals. I do, however, want 535 “average joes" debating, and deciding if the proposed treaties are a good move for our country, after being properly informed, and considering their respective constituencies' wishes, of course.

Not to paint with too broad a brush but those “average joes” are likely to believe that someone like Ethan Hawk exists and think Olivia Pope will show up with something incriminating to sway the vote at the last second.

That Trump (he is the latest) puts this crap out there and some people accept it says much more about his supporters than it does about him; he’s been chiseling people for decades…those that accept it are the real dopes.

Agreed. Remember just a few years ago when the Obama administration was saying they were unable to accomplish this or that because of "obstructionist republicans, or GWB? Same thing, different name.

No. Obstructionists Republicans do exist in Congress; as do Obstructionist Democrats in Congress. It is how the game is played given our system. There is no mysterious entity wielding power from the darkened corners.

It is directly relevant to the point you’re expressing. You say “something happened” to outsiders and that is what you think happens on main street USA? Gee, how did Wal Mart make it when there was Monty Ward, Sears, JC Penny, etc… all established “big boys”? They built a better mouse trap. How did Amazon.com supplant Wal Mart? They built a better mouse trap. How did Google destroy Yahoo? They’re better. The US Auto industry was creamed by the imports…how did that happen? They built a better car and sold it for less.

You are speaking of two very different types of business, on two very different scales. Yes, they all started relatively small, then grew quite large. However, comparing a local plumber to Walmart, is asinine.

Well, you won’t give details. I did give examples on how the NKOB did beat the long established and well endowed at their own game.
The macro vs. micro argument, in this situation is silly.

Not to paint with too broad a brush but those “average joes” are likely to believe that someone like Ethan Hawk exists and think Olivia Pope will show up with something incriminating to sway the vote at the last second.

You really do have quite a low opinion of the American people don’t you?

No.

It does explain why you believe that only trained professionals should make all the important decisions.

Okay, next time you need to have a procedure done or sell your house, don’t go to the doctor or have a real estate agent/realtor handle the sale. See how well you do compared to others. Politics is a profession. Sorry, but it is. Thinking a plumber or florist or seamstress can (or should) try to understand the intricacies of multi-national treaties is, well, stupid.

You fail to understand that many, by no means all, average Americans are really quite capable of understanding, and distinguishing the difference between reality and fiction.

I’m sure there are a great many who do. Again, I didn’t want to paint with too broad a brush and the examples given were just the latest pop culture references I could come up with.

The “average joe” has zero idea of the range of a SLBM for example…how long subs can remain at sea, what parts of the government stay open during a government shutdown, etc. You hear it all the time that many Americans can’t find Iran on a map or something similarly outrageous. Would these people get elected? Well, they are the average people….You want the “average joe” to be spending our tax monies….and they likely couldn’t tell you about the importance of potential hotspots like Gaza, Golan Heights, Siani Peninsula, Chechnia (sp?)….

No. Obstructionists Republicans do exist in Congress; as do Obstructionist Democrats in Congress. It is how the game is played given our system. There is no mysterious entity wielding power from the darkened corners

You have done a far better job of describing the Washington "Swamp" than I have. And yet, you claim to not know what it is. The fact is, you just call it something different.

What would that be? We have obstructionist politicians?
That is what the swamp consists of now? Again, this amorphous body is just a figment of the imagination.

See, we are really not all that dissimilar after all. We just look at things differently, and make different conclusions. Ain't American great? We can disagree, discuss, and come to the realization that we actually agree to a great extent. The only real difference I see is in perspective. And faith in the American people.

Never thought we were dissimilar….
I prefer to have a professional at the helm of the ship of state. It has proven over time to be an exceedingly intelligent thing to do. Look at this military parade fiasco for example….

Okay, next time you need to have a procedure done or sell your house, don’t go to the doctor or have a real estate agent/realtor handle the sale. See how well you do compared to others. Politics is a profession. Sorry, but it is. Thinking a plumber or florist or seamstress can (or should) try to understand the intricacies of multi-national treaties is, well, stupid.

Multinational treaties, sorry to inform you, are NOT WRITTEN BY POLITICIANS. They are written, largely, by PROFESSIONALS, at the State Department. When we elect our representatives, we are not electing someone to be an expert on all things they need to make decisions on. We are electing them to LISTEN TO THE EXPERTS and make an informed decision on our behalf. The fact that you seem to think that an elected official needs to be an expert on anything other than listening to experts and making a decision based on that, is part of the problem here. The sheer amount of study that it takes to become an expert on any given subject necessitates that one knows little, if anything on other subjects. Therefore, I would much rather have a person who knows little, and surrounds themselves with experts, than someone who THINKS they know things, and refuses to LISTEN.

The “average joe” has zero idea of the range of a SLBM for example…how long subs can remain at sea, what parts of the government stay open during a government shutdown, etc. You hear it all the time that many Americans can’t find Iran on a map or something similarly outrageous. Would these people get elected? Well, they are the average people….You want the “average joe” to be spending our tax monies….and they likely couldn’t tell you about the importance of potential hotspots like Gaza, Golan Heights, Siani Peninsula, Chechnia (sp?)….

Do you think any of those in congress know those things? I doubt it. I am reminded of something Henry Ford once said, “If I should really WANT to answer the foolish question you have just asked, or any of the other questions you have been asking me, let me remind you that I have a row of electric push-buttons on my desk, and by pushing the right button, I can summon to my aid men who can answer ANY question I desire concerning the business to which I am devoting most of my efforts. Now, will you kindly tell me, WHY I should clutter up my mind with general knowledge, for the purpose of being able to answer questions, when I have men around me who can supply any knowledge I require?”
Not a stupid man, nor an uneducated man. He knew his business and knew it well, when he needed expertise, he pushed a button and got it. Why should our politicians be any different?

If you think it best to have politicians who are experts in foreign policy, tell me, how well will they know economics, constitutionality of policy, environmental issues, military concerns, etc.? The FACT is every politician, to be properly informed, must surround themselves with people who are experts on the various topics they will deal with. So, the question becomes, would you rather have someone who is an expert in one topic, and knows next to nothing about everything else, or someone who has a firm grasp of the basics of a wide range of topics and defers to experts as needed?