CDZ Obama, Hillary, Trump, Fake News, Mueller, The Swamp.....

[candycorn]

It is particularly humorous that the same folks whining that kids “are not being told to think” actually believe there is a “swamp” and a “deep state”…something they cannot define much less enumerate it’s member’s names.

 

[Mac1958]

I think there's a middle ground between the two that is optimum. A system that can create great wealth for its citizens is going to favor certain citizens over others, because their skill sets and capacities match and are supported by that system. Capitalism, for example. And many simply lack that capacity.

So, in exchange for their good fortune for being able to operate within that system (and not being born in, say, Haiti), I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be required to contribute more into it than others. The key is in finding and maintaining an equilibrium that rewards & motivates them for their efforts without dis-incentivizing them for their efforts. I don't think we're terribly close to that right now.
.

I am not talking about middle ground ...
And not interested in giving anyone the authority to determine we are going to do things the way they think is appropriate.

You are talking about economic theory ...

Who you think deserves what ...
Where it should come from ...
Where it should go ...
And how that should affect the outcome.

I am more interested in economic law ...

It doesn't matter what you want or think ...
Until you provide a product or service to another ...
And they provide you with payment ...

You got a whole pile of nothing ...

No matter what one's economic theory or philosophy may be ... Economic law is going to apply.

.​

Great, and if wealth inequality annoys enough people, they'll vote that out in favor of a philosophy far less moderate than mine.
.

 

[candycorn]

Life seems pretty fuckin good outside of Political bicker-sphere. I see no apparent cause for alarm. Folks have different opinions - some join clubs, some demonstrate in the public sphere, some write blogs and others do the pundit-sphere. Very, very few get violent and begin to rise to the level of Law-breaking.

The sky has always been falling, to some, but life is actually in large part a matter of perspective.

Correct.

I was at this giant festival a few weeks ago, and I remember thinking how eerily similar it is to the last 20 other times I've been to it.

Up until a few years ago, I had a streak of going to Burning Man….I was always amazed at the lack of political leaning/discussion/concern out there. It was refreshing and, I’ll admit, a little bit uncomfortable….I always kept waiting for the other “shoe to drop”. It was 4:18 in the morning one day and we were playing guitar in a circle…the fire went out and we could barely see one another but the music just kept on and on . I kept waiting for someone to come along and say, “time to put it up”…never did. Sun came up; we went back to our pad.

 

[candycorn]

Life seems pretty fuckin good outside of Political bicker-sphere. I see no apparent cause for alarm. Folks have different opinions - some join clubs, some demonstrate in the public sphere, some write blogs and others do the pundit-sphere. Very, very few get violent and begin to rise to the level of Law-breaking.

The sky has always been falling, to some, but life is actually in large part a matter of perspective.

Correct.

I was at this giant festival a few weeks ago, and I remember thinking how eerily similar it is to the last 20 other times I've been to it.

Up until a few years ago, I had a streak of going to Burning Man….I was always amazed at the lack of political leaning/discussion/concern out there. It was refreshing and, I’ll admit, a little bit uncomfortable….I always kept waiting for the other “shoe to drop”. It was 4:18 in the morning one day and we were playing guitar in a circle…the fire went out and we could barely see one another but the music just kept on and on . I kept waiting for someone to come along and say, “time to put it up”…never did. Sun came up; we went back to our pad.

Rome isn't burning because of a couple of percentage point differences in GDP & Unemployment. Rome isn't burning because violence per capita is up, it's historically LOW, world-wide, right now. Rome isn't burning because folks are looser with sexual morality and language, that's an old-folks tale told 6, 000 times over (and over). Rome isn't burning when we have as close anelection as we did this last time, that's actually a good sign for both Football Teams.

Perspective is, realizing that bad news travels the fastest and sells the highest, and the internet is the fastest means for it to travel. Perspective is being adult enough to internalize and analyze these "feelings" of political discomfort before reporting back that Rome is burning.

"Same old shit dog, just a different day." - DMX, Famous Street Philosopher

Additionally, about turnout is about 5 in 10 or 6 in 10…. Well over half the nation could give two shits about politics. Sometimes I think they have the right idea.

 

[Tehon]

It is particularly humorous that the same folks whining that kids “are not being told to think” actually believe there is a “swamp” and a “deep state”…something they cannot define much less enumerate it’s member’s names.

The deep state is more of an idea and less of a cabal.

It is the idea that there are two governments at work. One for the people who want the government to work on improving social conditions. That one is mired in quicksand. It seemingly gets nothing accomplished. It works for the common people. And one that serves the military industrial complex and wall street class (deep state). It has no problem getting things through Congress.

There is plenty of money for war, not much for improving our social conditions.

 

[forkup]

It is particularly humorous that the same folks whining that kids “are not being told to think” actually believe there is a “swamp” and a “deep state”…something they cannot define much less enumerate it’s member’s names.

The deep state is more of an idea and less of a cabal.

It is the idea that there are two governments at work. One for the people who want the government to work on improving social conditions. That one is mired in quicksand. It seemingly gets nothing accomplished. It works for the common people. And one that serves the military industrial complex and wall street class (deep state). It has no problem getting things through Congress.

There is plenty of money for war, not much for improving our social conditions.

The deep state to me does exist, it's not nefarious though. Deep state is your postman. The guy in the EPA below a level that is congress approved. It's the people who have a job to do regardless of who's in the White House. This is feared by Trump. Because in an unconscious way he realizes that those people resist radical change. They provide a built in inertia to policy. It's the governmental equivalent to the "Are you sure" text when doing something critical on your computer.

 

[BlackSand]

Great, and if wealth inequality annoys enough people, they'll vote that out in favor of a philosophy far less moderate than mine.
.

It won't make them any better at business ...
Nor will it make their economic policy any more sustainable.

Look at it this way ... Say there a businessman with $100k in investment capital who knows he needs qualified workers.

Good Idea ... Invest the $100k in computers and training with the local school district ...
Provide students with the skills they need to help him/community and receive a tax deduction.

Bad Idea ... Pay taxes so people can go to college for free and learn how to hate him.

Really Bad Idea ... Pay taxes to assist hurricane relief in Haiti so they will change their constitution ...
In order to allow Hillary Clinton's brother to buy a gold mine permit.



Which one of those ideas is going to make his investment worthwhile?
Which one of those ideas is going to most directly provide him with a positive return on his investment and make him more money?

.​

 

[OldLady]

Just reviewing the current news cycle, thinking about D.C., the press and threads here...

I wonder how many words have been spent, and how much time has been spent, over the last 10 years or so on conspiracy theories, "breaking news", shocking developments, they're-really-gonna-get-it-now, this-is-the-big-one, fantastical conjecture, gotcha news stories, fanciful hypotheses and shallow wishful thinking.

And then I wonder, by contrast, how many words have been spent, how much time and effort has been spent, on looking honestly and critically at the issues that challenge, threaten and divide us and collaborating to create new, dynamic and innovating ways to address them and improve things together.

Is this really what we want? Is this really the best we can do? It appears to be, since this is all we do. It sure is easier than doing the heavy lifting that's needed.

What happened to us? Is anyone else wondering this?
.

There are plenty of really thoughtful people analyzing the problems and they are more than willing to discuss it.
They just don't come to USMB or probably Twitter. I hear them at conferences on CSPAN and NPR and read them in journals. There are solutions, and many of our legislators understand what the issues are and have ideas for how to solve them. In many places those ideas are actually being tried.

 

[Mac1958]

Just reviewing the current news cycle, thinking about D.C., the press and threads here...

I wonder how many words have been spent, and how much time has been spent, over the last 10 years or so on conspiracy theories, "breaking news", shocking developments, they're-really-gonna-get-it-now, this-is-the-big-one, fantastical conjecture, gotcha news stories, fanciful hypotheses and shallow wishful thinking.

And then I wonder, by contrast, how many words have been spent, how much time and effort has been spent, on looking honestly and critically at the issues that challenge, threaten and divide us and collaborating to create new, dynamic and innovating ways to address them and improve things together.

Is this really what we want? Is this really the best we can do? It appears to be, since this is all we do. It sure is easier than doing the heavy lifting that's needed.

What happened to us? Is anyone else wondering this?
.

There are plenty of really thoughtful people analyzing the problems and they are more than willing to discuss it.
They just don't come to USMB or probably Twitter. I hear them at conferences on CSPAN and NPR and read them in journals. There are solutions, and many of our legislators understand what the issues are and have ideas for how to solve them. In many places those ideas are actually being tried.

I believe that. But I also believe that we have become far more coarse and narcissistic and intolerant as a society, at the same time. It's getting tougher and tougher to (a) avoid partisan politics in popular culture and (b) find everyday people who don't immediately lapse into histrionics at the drop of a hat. A calm, civil, thoughtful conversation is becoming more and more rare.

Granted, that could just be my experience. But I'm not alone in thinking that.
.

 

[mudwhistle]

Life seems pretty fuckin good outside of Political bicker-sphere. I see no apparent cause for alarm. Folks have different opinions - some join clubs, some demonstrate in the public sphere, some write blogs and others do the pundit-sphere. Very, very few get violent and begin to rise to the level of Law-breaking.

The sky has always been falling, to some, but life is actually in large part a matter of perspective.

I saw a site last night out of SF that talked about how much human waste was on Mount Everest.

SF is known for their human waste.
Apparently it is becoming a problem on Everest.....according to the author.
Each climber produces 60lbs of crap that is left along the trails and rocky crags and crevasses all over Everest.

How long does it take an average human eating trail mix to produce 60lbs. of poop?

It takes weeks to walk to the Summit. Everything at the Basecamp is carried in. I think Basecamp is over 17,000 ft elevation. Carrying stuff down should be required, even carrying down your poop.

 

[Tehon]

It is particularly humorous that the same folks whining that kids “are not being told to think” actually believe there is a “swamp” and a “deep state”…something they cannot define much less enumerate it’s member’s names.

The deep state is more of an idea and less of a cabal.

It is the idea that there are two governments at work. One for the people who want the government to work on improving social conditions. That one is mired in quicksand. It seemingly gets nothing accomplished. It works for the common people. And one that serves the military industrial complex and wall street class (deep state). It has no problem getting things through Congress.

There is plenty of money for war, not much for improving our social conditions.

The deep state to me does exist, it's not nefarious though. Deep state is your postman. The guy in the EPA below a level that is congress approved. It's the people who have a job to do regardless of who's in the White House. This is feared by Trump. Because in an unconscious way he realizes that those people resist radical change. They provide a built in inertia to policy. It's the governmental equivalent to the "Are you sure" text when doing something critical on your computer.

I'm not sure about all that. This is where my understanding of it comes from.
Essay: Anatomy of the Deep State | BillMoyers.com

I think people, especially liberal types, can normally understand this idea of a deep state as described in the article. Trump's usage of it, and those that parrot it, make a mockery of it. It turns liberal thinkers off of the idea which gives the idea cover in plain site. It prevents people from discussing the idea rationally.

The last thing the ruling class wants is for people to talk about how they are looting society of its wealth.

 

[OldLady]

You have put me in mind of an episode last weekend that I had almost forgotten about.
We have many tourists this time of year. I was at the local diner Sunday morning; all of a sudden, I hear "**** Trump." Now I am not one who listens in on conversations at other people's tables; this guy was louder than the average bear, and then he got louder. "I am ******* sick and tired of people telling me 'I voted for Trump' ... he's an asshole and a liar and **** TRUMP!"

That is completely unheard of behavior in our diner. He was from Away, and I just remember thinking we are blessed not to have to deal with that kind of tantrum with our morning coffee on a regular basis. Sometimes a local will put on his booming voice and tell us all what he thinks about this or that, but he'll do it plain and honest and you'll have no questions when he's through.

 

[mudwhistle]

It is particularly humorous that the same folks whining that kids “are not being told to think” actually believe there is a “swamp” and a “deep state”…something they cannot define much less enumerate it’s member’s names.

We have clearly defined what it is, and who is in it. Some willingly and some against their will.
But, like a typical useful idiot, you demand that everything be laid out on official government documents and produced in triplicate or it doesn't exist.

 

[candycorn]

It is particularly humorous that the same folks whining that kids “are not being told to think” actually believe there is a “swamp” and a “deep state”…something they cannot define much less enumerate it’s member’s names.

We have clearly defined what it is, and who is in it. Some willingly and some against their will.
But, like a typical useful idiot, you demand that everything be laid out on official government documents and produced in triplicate or it doesn't exist.

Neither is true; it has never been completely defined much less who is in it.

For example;

May I please have the roster for each?

This is the part where you obfuscate, get angry, call names and do everything except define and supply the names.

That someone can be in something “against their will” is crazy. Demanding that others “learn to think” while harboring such moronic stances is, well, absurd.

 

[forkup]

It is particularly humorous that the same folks whining that kids “are not being told to think” actually believe there is a “swamp” and a “deep state”…something they cannot define much less enumerate it’s member’s names.

The deep state is more of an idea and less of a cabal.

It is the idea that there are two governments at work. One for the people who want the government to work on improving social conditions. That one is mired in quicksand. It seemingly gets nothing accomplished. It works for the common people. And one that serves the military industrial complex and wall street class (deep state). It has no problem getting things through Congress.

There is plenty of money for war, not much for improving our social conditions.

The deep state to me does exist, it's not nefarious though. Deep state is your postman. The guy in the EPA below a level that is congress approved. It's the people who have a job to do regardless of who's in the White House. This is feared by Trump. Because in an unconscious way he realizes that those people resist radical change. They provide a built in inertia to policy. It's the governmental equivalent to the "Are you sure" text when doing something critical on your computer.

I'm not sure about all that. This is where my understanding of it comes from.
Essay: Anatomy of the Deep State | BillMoyers.com

I think people, especially liberal types, can normally understand this idea of a deep state as described in the article. Trump's usage of it, and those that parrot it, make a mockery of it. It turns liberal thinkers off of the idea which gives the idea cover in plain site. It prevents people from discussing the idea rationally.

The last thing the ruling class wants is for people to talk about how they are looting society of its wealth.

If this is was your source of information I don't see how you disagree with my assessment.
"the center of gravity of the Deep State is firmly situated in and around the Beltway. The Deep State’s physical expansion and consolidation around the Beltway would seem to make a mockery of the frequent pronouncement that governance in Washington is dysfunctional and broken. That the secret and unaccountable Deep State floats freely above the gridlock between both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue"
Just one paragraph of many that support my conclusion. The only point I disagree with is the implication of the president into the system. He's only a member in the sense that he has the ability to make decisions without needing the approval of congress. He's got similar powers as the "deep state" in the sense that he doesn't necessarily need the other branches of power, but he's not a member of it. Since he is replaced frequently.

 

[mudwhistle]

Life seems pretty fuckin good outside of Political bicker-sphere. I see no apparent cause for alarm. Folks have different opinions - some join clubs, some demonstrate in the public sphere, some write blogs and others do the pundit-sphere. Very, very few get violent and begin to rise to the level of Law-breaking.

The sky has always been falling, to some, but life is actually in large part a matter of perspective.

I saw a site last night out of SF that talked about how much human waste was on Mount Everest.

SF is known for their human waste.
Apparently it is becoming a problem on Everest.....according to the author.
Each climber produces 60lbs of crap that is left along the trails and rocky crags and crevasses all over Everest.

How long does it take an average human eating trail mix to produce 60lbs. of poop?

It takes weeks to walk to the Summit. Everything at the Basecamp is carried in. I think Basecamp is over 17,000 ft elevation. Carrying stuff down should be required, even carrying down your poop.

I can see carrying "stuff" out as being mandatory, not poop though I mean....it's biodegradable and all lol...

Not if it stays at - 50 degrees.

 

[candycorn]

It is particularly humorous that the same folks whining that kids “are not being told to think” actually believe there is a “swamp” and a “deep state”…something they cannot define much less enumerate it’s member’s names.

The deep state is more of an idea and less of a cabal.

It is the idea that there are two governments at work. One for the people who want the government to work on improving social conditions. That one is mired in quicksand. It seemingly gets nothing accomplished. It works for the common people. And one that serves the military industrial complex and wall street class (deep state). It has no problem getting things through Congress.

There is plenty of money for war, not much for improving our social conditions.

Thats convenient….

It can be anyone, anywhere at any time and because “extreme” or “conventional” are in the eyes of the observer…any action outside of breathing can be called a “deep state” action…