Zone1 Keeping the Main Thing the Main Thing

[SweetSue92]

"O wretched man that I am! Who will save me from this body of death?"--Romans 7:24
Your money won't save you.

Your knowledge won't save you.

Your marriage won't save you.

Your children and parents won't save you.

Not even your good deeds.

Not even all the love you have poured out and lived in your life.

Many of those are good, but they're not good enough for a Holy God.

So what can save?

"Thanks be to God, who delivers me though Jesus Christ our Lord"--Romans 7:25

 

[Meriweather]

So what can save?

Discerning the will and the laws of God, and living them.

 

[DGS49]

I think that the whole Faith vs Works thing has been resolved, to the satisfaction of most believers. Faith alone won't "save" you, nor will good works. But if you have faith, good works must follow.

 

[SweetSue92]

Discerning the will and the laws of God, and living them.

I refer you to Hebrews. And Romans.

 

[SweetSue92]

I think that the whole Faith vs Works thing has been resolved, to the satisfaction of most believers. Faith alone won't "save" you, nor will good works. But if you have faith, good works must follow.

Faith alone will save you--witness the thief on the cross, who professed faith and Jesus said "Today you will be with Me in paradise".

But genuine faith will show in good works, and believers in Heaven will be rewarded according to that work.

 

[Meriweather]

I refer you to Hebrews. And Romans.

Catholics reference is the entirety of the Bible. People living the Way of Salvation bring salvation and the knowledge of salvation into their marriage, into the lives of their family, and into their deeds. We are called to center our present life--our present existence--around God. Giving God the first place in our lives now is the first Commandment and is the Way of Salvation.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Faith alone will save you--witness the thief on the cross, who professed faith and Jesus said "Today you will be with Me in paradise".

But genuine faith will show in good works, and believers in Heaven will be rewarded according to that work.

^ And there you have it.

 

[BreezeWood]

.
- proving a person is not a sinner by their triumph over evil is the only way to free their spirit to be judged and granted admission to the everlasting.

 

[onefour1]

Without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, no man can be saved. So no matter how much faith, how much work, or how much of anything else, without the grace of Jesus Christ no man or woman can be saved into the kingdom of heaven and no man or woman can become immortal. Through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ all mankind will become immortal and be resurrected to live forever and ever in bodies of flesh and bone. Also through the atonement of Jesus Christ, forgiveness of sin can be obtained to allow one to gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven. So without Christ no one can be saved. This much should not be debated among any believer in Christ Jesus.

However, does Christ require at our hands faith and works, which are not the saving force behind salvation, but a requirement of us before he will extend his saving grace upon us?

Faith​

• See also Assurance; Baptism, Qualifications for; Believe; Confidence; Faithful; Faithfulness; Obedience; Trust; Trust in God; BD Faith
• children in whom is no faith, Deut. 32:20.
• the just shall live by his faith, Hab. 2:4 (Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:11; Heb. 10:38).
• clothe you, O ye of little faith, Matt. 6:30 (Luke 12:28).
• not found so great faith … in Israel, Matt. 8:10 (Luke 7:9).
• thy faith hath made thee whole, Matt. 9:22 (Mark 5:34; 10:52; Luke 7:50; 8:48; 17:19; 18:42).
• According to your faith be it unto you, Matt. 9:29.
• thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt, Matt. 14:31.
• great is thy faith: be it unto thee, Matt. 15:28.
• faith as a grain of mustard seed, Matt. 17:20 (Luke 17:6).
• If ye have faith, and doubt not, Matt. 21:21.
• mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, Matt. 23:23.
• how is it that ye have no faith, Mark 4:40.
• Have faith in God, Mark 11:22.
• Where is your faith, Luke 8:25.
• apostles said … Increase our faith, Luke 17:5.
• shall he find faith on the earth, Luke 18:8.
• prayed … that thy faith fail not, Luke 22:32.
• through faith in his name hath made this man strong, Acts 3:16.
• opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles, Acts 14:27.
• unbelief make the faith of God without effect, Rom. 3:3.
• propitiation through faith in his blood, Rom. 3:25.
• works? Nay: but by the law of faith, Rom. 3:27.
• justified by faith, Rom. 3:28 (5:1; Gal. 2:16).
• it is of faith, that it might be by grace, Rom. 4:16.
• faith cometh by hearing, Rom. 10:17.
• dealt to every man the measure of faith, Rom. 12:3.
• prophesy according to the proportion of faith, Rom. 12:6.
• Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, Rom. 14:1.
• whatsoever is not of faith is sin, Rom. 14:23.
• your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, 1 Cor. 2:5.
• To another faith by the same Spirit, 1 Cor. 12:9.
• now abideth faith, hope, charity, 1 Cor. 13:13.
• if Christ be not risen … faith is also vain, 1 Cor. 15:14 (15:17).
• stand fast in the faith, 1 Cor. 16:13.
• we walk by faith, not by sight, 2 Cor. 5:7.
• having hope, when your faith is increased, 2 Cor. 10:15.
• in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son, Gal. 2:20.
• Received ye the Spirit … by the hearing of faith, Gal. 3:2.
• receive the promise of the Spirit through faith, Gal. 3:14.
• ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ, Gal. 3:26.
• wait for the hope of righteousness by faith, Gal. 5:5.
• faith which worketh by love, Gal. 5:6.
• fruit of the Spirit is love … faith, Gal. 5:22.
• by grace are ye saved through faith, Eph. 2:8.
• access with confidence by the faith of him, Eph. 3:12.
• Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, Eph. 3:17.
• One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5.
• Till we all come in the unity of the faith, Eph. 4:13.
• taking the shield of faith, Eph. 6:16.
• perfect that which is lacking in your faith, 1 Thes. 3:10.
• breastplate of faith and love, 1 Thes. 5:8.
• your faith groweth exceedingly, 2 Thes. 1:3.
• all men have not faith, 2 Thes. 3:2.
• end of the commandment is charity out of … faith unfeigned, 1 Tim. 1:5.
• continue in faith and charity, 1 Tim. 2:15.
• latter times some shall depart from the faith, 1 Tim. 4:1.
• provide not for his own … hath denied the faith, 1 Tim. 5:8.
• they have erred from the faith, 1 Tim. 6:10.
• Fight the good fight of faith, 1 Tim. 6:12.
• some professing have erred concerning the faith, 1 Tim. 6:21.
• reprobate concerning the faith, 2 Tim. 3:8.
• finished my course, I have kept the faith, 2 Tim. 4:7.
• rebuke … that they may be sound in the faith, Titus 1:13 (2:2).
• not being mixed with faith in them that heard, Heb. 4:2.
• foundation of repentance … of faith toward God, Heb. 6:1.
• through faith and patience inherit the promises, Heb. 6:12.
• with a true heart in full assurance of faith, Heb. 10:22.
• hold fast the profession of our faith, Heb. 10:23.
• faith is the substance of things hoped for, Heb. 11:1.
• By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice, Heb. 11:4.
• without faith it is impossible to please him, Heb. 11:6.
• By faith Abraham … offered up Isaac, Heb. 11:17.
• Who through faith subdued kingdoms, Heb. 11:33.
• having obtained a good report through faith, Heb. 11:39.
• Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, Heb. 12:2.
• trying of your faith worketh patience, James 1:3.
• let him ask in faith, nothing wavering, James 1:6.
• God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, James 2:5.
• hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him, James 2:14.
• faith, if it hath not works, is dead, James 2:17 (2:20).
• shew thee my faith by my works, James 2:18.
• by works was faith made perfect, James 2:22.
• prayer of faith shall save the sick, James 5:15.
• trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold, 1 Pet. 1:7.
• add to your faith virtue, 2 Pet. 1:5.
• earnestly contend for the faith, Jude 1:3.
• patience and the faith of the saints, Rev. 13:10.

Good Works​

• See also God, Will of; Good; Grace; Justice; Righteous; Works
• Be ye strong … for your work shall be rewarded, 2 Chr. 15:7.
• Give them according to their deeds, Ps. 28:4 (Rev. 2:23).
• renderest to every man according to his work, Ps. 62:12 (Prov. 24:12, 29; Rom. 2:5–11).
• God shall bring every work into judgment, Eccl. 12:14.
• to give every man according to his ways, Jer. 17:10 (32:19).
• do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly, Micah 6:8.
• they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness, Matt. 5:6.
• that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father, Matt. 5:16.
• whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them, Matt. 7:12.
• Ye shall know them by their fruits, Matt. 7:16.
• Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt. 7:21
• received seed into the good ground … beareth fruit, Matt. 13:23.
• shall reward every man according to his works, Matt. 16:27 (1 Cor. 3:8; Alma 9:27–28; D&C 138:59).
• as ye have done it unto one of the least of these … ye have done it unto me, Matt. 25:40.
• he that doeth truth cometh to the light, John 3:21.
• If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham, John 8:39.
• I must work the works of him that sent me, John 9:4.
• he that … worketh righteousness, is accepted with him, Acts 10:35.
• doers of the law shall be justified, Rom. 2:13.
• receive … according to that he hath done, 2 Cor. 5:10.
• let every man prove his own work, Gal. 6:4.
• whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap, Gal. 6:7.
• created in Christ Jesus unto good works, Eph. 2:10.
• fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, Eph. 5:9.
• perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works, 2 Tim. 3:17.
• be careful to maintain good works, Titus 3:8.
• Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, Heb. 13:21.
• be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, James 1:22.
• Pure religion … is this, To visit the fatherless, James 1:27.
• by works was faith made perfect, James 2:22.
• faith without works is dead, James 2:26.
• him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, James 4:17.
• Father … judgeth according to every man’s work, 1 Pet. 1:17 (Rev. 20:12–13; 1 Ne. 15:32; Mosiah 3:24; Alma 33:22; D&C 19:3; 76:111; 137:9).
• your good works … glorify God, 1 Pet. 2:12.
• add to your faith virtue, 2 Pet. 1:5.
• let us not love in word … but in deed, 1 Jn. 3:18.
• we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, 1 Jn. 3:22.
• Blessed are they that do his commandments, Rev. 22:14.

 

[SweetSue92]

Catholics reference is the entirety of the Bible. People living the Way of Salvation bring salvation and the knowledge of salvation into their marriage, into the lives of their family, and into their deeds. We are called to center our present life--our present existence--around God. Giving God the first place in our lives now is the first Commandment and is the Way of Salvation.

So you don't need Jesus. Got it.

 

[SweetSue92]

Without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, no man can be saved. So no matter how much faith, how much work, or how much of anything else, without the grace of Jesus Christ no man or woman can be saved into the kingdom of heaven and no man or woman can become immortal. Through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ all mankind will become immortal and be resurrected to live forever and ever in bodies of flesh and bone. Also through the atonement of Jesus Christ, forgiveness of sin can be obtained to allow one to gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven. So without Christ no one can be saved. This much should not be debated among any believer in Christ Jesus.

However, does Christ require at our hands faith and works, which are not the saving force behind salvation, but a requirement of us before he will extend his saving grace upon us?

Faith​

• See also Assurance; Baptism, Qualifications for; Believe; Confidence; Faithful; Faithfulness; Obedience; Trust; Trust in God; BD Faith
• children in whom is no faith, Deut. 32:20.
• the just shall live by his faith, Hab. 2:4 (Rom. 1:17; Gal. 3:11; Heb. 10:38).
• clothe you, O ye of little faith, Matt. 6:30 (Luke 12:28).
• not found so great faith … in Israel, Matt. 8:10 (Luke 7:9).
• thy faith hath made thee whole, Matt. 9:22 (Mark 5:34; 10:52; Luke 7:50; 8:48; 17:19; 18:42).
• According to your faith be it unto you, Matt. 9:29.
• thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt, Matt. 14:31.
• great is thy faith: be it unto thee, Matt. 15:28.
• faith as a grain of mustard seed, Matt. 17:20 (Luke 17:6).
• If ye have faith, and doubt not, Matt. 21:21.
• mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, Matt. 23:23.
• how is it that ye have no faith, Mark 4:40.
• Have faith in God, Mark 11:22.
• Where is your faith, Luke 8:25.
• apostles said … Increase our faith, Luke 17:5.
• shall he find faith on the earth, Luke 18:8.
• prayed … that thy faith fail not, Luke 22:32.
• through faith in his name hath made this man strong, Acts 3:16.
• opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles, Acts 14:27.
• unbelief make the faith of God without effect, Rom. 3:3.
• propitiation through faith in his blood, Rom. 3:25.
• works? Nay: but by the law of faith, Rom. 3:27.
• justified by faith, Rom. 3:28 (5:1; Gal. 2:16).
• it is of faith, that it might be by grace, Rom. 4:16.
• faith cometh by hearing, Rom. 10:17.
• dealt to every man the measure of faith, Rom. 12:3.
• prophesy according to the proportion of faith, Rom. 12:6.
• Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, Rom. 14:1.
• whatsoever is not of faith is sin, Rom. 14:23.
• your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, 1 Cor. 2:5.
• To another faith by the same Spirit, 1 Cor. 12:9.
• now abideth faith, hope, charity, 1 Cor. 13:13.
• if Christ be not risen … faith is also vain, 1 Cor. 15:14 (15:17).
• stand fast in the faith, 1 Cor. 16:13.
• we walk by faith, not by sight, 2 Cor. 5:7.
• having hope, when your faith is increased, 2 Cor. 10:15.
• in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son, Gal. 2:20.
• Received ye the Spirit … by the hearing of faith, Gal. 3:2.
• receive the promise of the Spirit through faith, Gal. 3:14.
• ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ, Gal. 3:26.
• wait for the hope of righteousness by faith, Gal. 5:5.
• faith which worketh by love, Gal. 5:6.
• fruit of the Spirit is love … faith, Gal. 5:22.
• by grace are ye saved through faith, Eph. 2:8.
• access with confidence by the faith of him, Eph. 3:12.
• Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, Eph. 3:17.
• One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5.
• Till we all come in the unity of the faith, Eph. 4:13.
• taking the shield of faith, Eph. 6:16.
• perfect that which is lacking in your faith, 1 Thes. 3:10.
• breastplate of faith and love, 1 Thes. 5:8.
• your faith groweth exceedingly, 2 Thes. 1:3.
• all men have not faith, 2 Thes. 3:2.
• end of the commandment is charity out of … faith unfeigned, 1 Tim. 1:5.
• continue in faith and charity, 1 Tim. 2:15.
• latter times some shall depart from the faith, 1 Tim. 4:1.
• provide not for his own … hath denied the faith, 1 Tim. 5:8.
• they have erred from the faith, 1 Tim. 6:10.
• Fight the good fight of faith, 1 Tim. 6:12.
• some professing have erred concerning the faith, 1 Tim. 6:21.
• reprobate concerning the faith, 2 Tim. 3:8.
• finished my course, I have kept the faith, 2 Tim. 4:7.
• rebuke … that they may be sound in the faith, Titus 1:13 (2:2).
• not being mixed with faith in them that heard, Heb. 4:2.
• foundation of repentance … of faith toward God, Heb. 6:1.
• through faith and patience inherit the promises, Heb. 6:12.
• with a true heart in full assurance of faith, Heb. 10:22.
• hold fast the profession of our faith, Heb. 10:23.
• faith is the substance of things hoped for, Heb. 11:1.
• By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice, Heb. 11:4.
• without faith it is impossible to please him, Heb. 11:6.
• By faith Abraham … offered up Isaac, Heb. 11:17.
• Who through faith subdued kingdoms, Heb. 11:33.
• having obtained a good report through faith, Heb. 11:39.
• Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, Heb. 12:2.
• trying of your faith worketh patience, James 1:3.
• let him ask in faith, nothing wavering, James 1:6.
• God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, James 2:5.
• hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him, James 2:14.
• faith, if it hath not works, is dead, James 2:17 (2:20).
• shew thee my faith by my works, James 2:18.
• by works was faith made perfect, James 2:22.
• prayer of faith shall save the sick, James 5:15.
• trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold, 1 Pet. 1:7.
• add to your faith virtue, 2 Pet. 1:5.
• earnestly contend for the faith, Jude 1:3.
• patience and the faith of the saints, Rev. 13:10.

Good Works​

• See also God, Will of; Good; Grace; Justice; Righteous; Works
• Be ye strong … for your work shall be rewarded, 2 Chr. 15:7.
• Give them according to their deeds, Ps. 28:4 (Rev. 2:23).
• renderest to every man according to his work, Ps. 62:12 (Prov. 24:12, 29; Rom. 2:5–11).
• God shall bring every work into judgment, Eccl. 12:14.
• to give every man according to his ways, Jer. 17:10 (32:19).
• do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly, Micah 6:8.
• they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness, Matt. 5:6.
• that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father, Matt. 5:16.
• whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them, Matt. 7:12.
• Ye shall know them by their fruits, Matt. 7:16.
• Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt. 7:21
• received seed into the good ground … beareth fruit, Matt. 13:23.
• shall reward every man according to his works, Matt. 16:27 (1 Cor. 3:8; Alma 9:27–28; D&C 138:59).
• as ye have done it unto one of the least of these … ye have done it unto me, Matt. 25:40.
• he that doeth truth cometh to the light, John 3:21.
• If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham, John 8:39.
• I must work the works of him that sent me, John 9:4.
• he that … worketh righteousness, is accepted with him, Acts 10:35.
• doers of the law shall be justified, Rom. 2:13.
• receive … according to that he hath done, 2 Cor. 5:10.
• let every man prove his own work, Gal. 6:4.
• whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap, Gal. 6:7.
• created in Christ Jesus unto good works, Eph. 2:10.
• fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, Eph. 5:9.
• perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works, 2 Tim. 3:17.
• be careful to maintain good works, Titus 3:8.
• Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, Heb. 13:21.
• be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, James 1:22.
• Pure religion … is this, To visit the fatherless, James 1:27.
• by works was faith made perfect, James 2:22.
• faith without works is dead, James 2:26.
• him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, James 4:17.
• Father … judgeth according to every man’s work, 1 Pet. 1:17 (Rev. 20:12–13; 1 Ne. 15:32; Mosiah 3:24; Alma 33:22; D&C 19:3; 76:111; 137:9).
• your good works … glorify God, 1 Pet. 2:12.
• add to your faith virtue, 2 Pet. 1:5.
• let us not love in word … but in deed, 1 Jn. 3:18.
• we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, 1 Jn. 3:22.
• Blessed are they that do his commandments, Rev. 22:14.

There is nothing we can do on our own to "earn" salvation. It is a free gift of grace. Without Christ we are utterly condemned.

 

[luiza]

There is nothing we can do on our own to "earn" salvation. It is a free gift of grace. Without Christ we are utterly condemned.

To the complete and utter contrary , imho

Your Karma travels within your soul and only you can enlighten it .
Will almost certainly take thousands of incarnations .
This counts for nothing because Time does not exist within Universe . As distict from here in a four dimension Matterium .

Variety is -------

 

[Meriweather]

So you don't need Jesus. Got it.

You may wish to rethink that. In taking into account the entirety of the Bible, one brings the entirety of Jesus and the entirety of salvation into one's life.

There is so much more to both than simply saying, Yes, I accept Jesus as savior; see all who do in heaven. It is discombobulating when people find a verse here and a verse there to show that is all that is needed, ignoring the avalanche of other verse. There are over 31,000 verses in the Bible. When quoting a couple of verses, consider what is being left out.

I do the same with news stories. What makes the news so interesting is not what is being presented, but what is not being addressed.

 

[Meriweather]

To the complete and utter contrary , imho

Your Karma travels within your soul and only you can enlighten it .

What St. Paul explains and what Sweet Sue is addressing may equate to Karma itself. You note that Karma travels within our souls. Consider, does one have to first earn Karma for it to be present, or is Karma simply there upon the soul's creation--no earning necessary?

In the same way as Karma, Redemption and the Way of Salvation is ever present and open. One can accept what Karma, Redemption, and the Way of Salvation offer or choose different ways and those consequences.

 

[BreezeWood]

There is nothing we can do on our own to "earn" salvation. It is a free gift of grace. Without Christ we are utterly condemned.

jesus never claimed to be a messiah and taught liberation theology, self determination.

your books of forgeries and fallacies, christian bible - desert religions - there are 3 of those you have no idea what is written is authentic, factual of purely illusionary -

that wager christians rely on, to be safe would best be served by a person doing whats right for salvation than praying to a book.

 

[Anathema]

"Thanks be to God, who delivers me though Jesus Christ our Lord"--Romans 7:25

In that case I’ll just say “NO” to that salvation, thank you very much.

 

[SweetSue92]

You may wish to rethink that. In taking into account the entirety of the Bible, one brings the entirety of Jesus and the entirety of salvation into one's life.

There is so much more to both than simply saying, Yes, I accept Jesus as savior; see all who do in heaven. It is discombobulating when people find a verse here and a verse there to show that is all that is needed, ignoring the avalanche of other verse. There are over 31,000 verses in the Bible. When quoting a couple of verses, consider what is being left out.

I do the same with news stories. What makes the news so interesting is not what is being presented, but what is not being addressed.

Guarantee you leave off the ones about Jesus' brothers and sisters, right?

 

[SweetSue92]

What St. Paul explains and what Sweet Sue is addressing may equate to Karma itself. You note that Karma travels within our souls. Consider, does one have to first earn Karma for it to be present, or is Karma simply there upon the soul's creation--no earning necessary?

In the same way as Karma, Redemption and the Way of Salvation is ever present and open. One can accept what Karma, Redemption, and the Way of Salvation offer or choose different ways and those consequences.

That's great I guess, but it's certainly nowhere near Christianity.

Just so readers are clear on that.

 

[Meriweather]

Guarantee you leave off the ones about Jesus' brothers and sisters, right?

Not at all. I go back to the etymology of the Hebrew/Aramaic where there are no words for cousins, nieces, nephews, step-children, etc. The word used was first translated as 'brethren' which included all in a household no matter what the actual blood relationship. In the early church, when 'brethren' was chosen as the translation, someone warned one of the Church fathers that people might interpret that as full brothers and sisters. That Church father laughed and scoffed, "Who would ever consider that?"

In any case, I have no problem with people believing Jesus had half-sisters and half-brothers as he considered all who heard the word of God and followed it his mother, brothers, and sisters. Arguing about Mary's sex life is a distraction that need not be addressed.

 

[Meriweather]

That's great I guess, but it's certainly nowhere near Christianity.

Just so readers are clear on that.

What? You are now saying Christians do earn salvation and redemption? Surely not! What are you saying?