Zone1 A Major Difference of the Catholic Faith

[Meriweather]

It hit me this morning when I read this in a post by The Irish Ram:

If you answered yes to those questions then you are going to be so happy when you wake up in Heaven

Compare this to, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

God's Kingdom is flourishing in heaven and the will of God is being done, salvation ever present.

It is not heaven that is fallen, it is Earth. We wake up on earth. In the Catholic faith we wake up each morning with the goal of building the Kingdom of God here on earth, with seeking and doing the will of God in our present lives.
Thinking that salvation is as The Irish Ram explains...

1. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior?
2. Do you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead?
3. Do you believe that Christ died on the cross for your sins?

If you answered yes to those questions then you are going to be so happy when you wake up in Heaven

...misses God's plan for Earth, misses Jesus' point of salvation for this entire planet. We are not meant to endure a fallen life on a fallen planet until we wake up in heaven. We, as God's children are builders, are creators of God's Kingdom here on earth, human leaders of the Way of Salvation here and now.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

It hit me this morning when I read this in a post by The Irish Ram:



Compare this to, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

God's Kingdom is flourishing in heaven and the will of God is being done, salvation ever present.

It is not heaven that is fallen, it is Earth. We wake up on earth. In the Catholic faith we wake up each morning with the goal of building the Kingdom of God here on earth, with seeking and doing the will of God in our present lives.
Thinking that salvation is as The Irish Ram explains...


...misses God's plan for Earth, misses Jesus' point of salvation for this entire planet. We are not meant to endure a fallen life on a fallen planet until we wake up in heaven. We, as God's children are builders, are creators of God's Kingdom here on earth, human leaders of the Way of Salvation here and now.

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No, true Christians are AMBASSADORS for the Kingdom of God. Of course true Christians are to live their lives as those who's citizenship is first and foremost in Heaven. Good works ALONE aren't enough. They understand that they will bring the Kingdom. That is for the Father in His own time. The true Christian doesn't embrace the pagan rituals and traditions of the pagan culture they live in on this earth. Nobody has done this like the Catholic Church

 

[Meriweather]

No, true Christians are AMBASSADORS for the Kingdom of God. Of course true Christians are to live their lives as those who's citizenship is first and foremost in Heaven. Good works ALONE aren't enough. They understand that they will bring the Kingdom. That is for the Father in His own time. The true Christian doesn't embrace the pagan rituals and traditions of the pagan culture they live in on this earth. Nobody has done this like the Catholic Church

Then be "AMBASSADORS" if that is your denomination's calling.

The Catholic life is about being a servant of God, discerning the will of God, to serve God and others. Salvation is for all in this life in this place.

 

[The Irish Ram]

It hit me this morning when I read this in a post by The Irish Ram:



Compare this to, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

God's Kingdom is flourishing in heaven and the will of God is being done, salvation ever present.

It is not heaven that is fallen, it is Earth. We wake up on earth. In the Catholic faith we wake up each morning with the goal of building the Kingdom of God here on earth, with seeking and doing the will of God in our present lives.
Thinking that salvation is as The Irish Ram explains...


...misses God's plan for Earth, misses Jesus' point of salvation for this entire planet. We are not meant to endure a fallen life on a fallen planet until we wake up in heaven. We, as God's children are builders, are creators of God's Kingdom here on earth, human leaders of the Way of Salvation here and now.

It is the opposite of what you believe, Meri.
Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
We do good works for Christ's sake, not salvation.
Here is the truth about us building and creating to insure salvation:
Isaiah 57:12 I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you.
Instead Christ wants us to do this:
Matt. 11:28-30 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

How much more succinct does the Word need to be?

Jun 21, 2023 — Romans 10:9. “If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

IT DOES NOT SAY: If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord, and you're Catholic, and believe in your heart....
IT ALSO DOES NOT SAY: If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord, as long as you're not Catholic, and believe in your heart....

2Peter 3:9 Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Your heavenly Father and His Son will go to any length to save you, including being beaten and dying on a cross to secure your eternity with Him. God loves us that much. He is not our adversary, HE IS ON OUR SIDE. He has made it as uncomplicated as He can to get you safely to Heaven. His yoke is easy.

So, Stop with the condemning of one another to hell based on made man church organizations. If God doesn't condemn us, who are we to condemn each other? Over bullshit dogma?

God knew that Christians would argue about their interpretations of Scripture. He had Paul write this to Timothy:
2 Tim. 2:14 “Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen” <<< We certainly aren't setting a very good example here.

Discussing the doctrine of various church organizations is fine, as long as it is done with loving kindness and a lack of damnation. Remember, that Jesus accused the Pharisees of keeping their doctrine, but left out the most important part, love.

Be Kind...

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[Meriweather]

It is the opposite of what you believe, Meri.

Perhaps I did not make the point clear. Redemption, Salvation, Kingdom living already exists in heaven. God's will is done in heaven. Kingdom living and salvation is automatically the way of life in heaven. We are not yet in heaven. We are on earth. For a reason.

Are all Christians doing the will of God on earth? Are all living on earth also living in the Kingdom of God? Are all on earth living The Way of salvation?

Are we working in the service of God so that God's will is being done today on earth as it is in heaven? Are we practicing Kingdom living every minute of every day? That is, are we: Discerning the will of God and following it; living the Way of Salvation all throughout our day; following the Laws of God, incorporating them into our daily lives?

Christians should do all of the above on earth today because of our great faith in God's will, his commandments, his redemption and his way of salvation. Claiming to worship God (in ancient etymology) is claiming to be of service to God and putting him and his ways first in all that we do now.

Telling people all they need to do is claim Jesus as their savior and they will one day wake up in heaven is the biggest cop-out of our responsibilities and our commitments of being today's servants of God right here on earth.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Your faith saves you. Good works are done for Christ's sake, not for salvation, lest any man boast..
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.
^ Did you work for your Christmas or birthday gifts?
You give a gift to show your affection for that person, not to create work for them. God's grace in giving you something that you don't deserve is a gift to you and me. It is a gift, not a chore.
Acts 15:11
On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
^ Just as they are, they are saved. There is no Part two. It is a fait accompli.

Works are for rewards.

Colossians 3:23-24 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.​

Specifically these rewards:

• The Crown of The Soul-Winner
• The Crown of Righteousness
• The Crown of Life
• The Crown of Incorruption or Imperishable Crown
• The Crown of Glory
• The Crown of Victory
• The Crown of Rejoicing

 

[Meriweather]

Your faith saves you. Good works are done for Christ's sake

God saves us, no one, nothing else.

In another post you say you do good works for rewards.

Remember what Jesus said: Say, we are merely unworthy servants, unworthy of praise or reward, doing only what we ought to do.

 

[The Irish Ram]

God saves us, no one, nothing else.

In another post you say you do good works for rewards.

Remember what Jesus said: Say, we are merely unworthy servants, unworthy of praise or reward, doing only what we ought to do.

Grace is favor that we don't deserve. We are unworthy and are just doing what we ought to be doing in the first place. If we deserved it, then it wouldn't be grace.
Verbatim:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

In all my posts I say works, done for Christ's sake, are for reward, not to add to Christ's work on the cross. His redemption of us was completed on the cross.
Our good works are judged at our coronation, in Heaven. The good things that we did here, if they were done for our own ego, burn up. The ones we did quietly, for Jesus' sake, determine what royal crowns we receive. It is referred to as the BEMA Judgment. Those are the crowns we take and lay at the feet of the one who redeemed us. The reason we are in Heaven to begin with. Jesus Christ.

 

[Meriweather]

Grace is favor that we don't deserve. We are unworthy and are just doing what we ought to be doing in the first place. If we deserved it, then it wouldn't be grace.
Verbatim:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

Don't stop there. Ephesians goes on to say that we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance that we should live in them.

We don't deserve grace? Do we deserve oxygen? Do we deserve the talent(s) we were born with? Grace and talents are far different from rewards. It is the rewards that are undeserved because without the grace and talents that have been bestowed upon us, we would be unable to attain rewards.

We do good works because God prepared in advance that we should do them, live them. And God, being God, showers us with grace--his helping hand ever present. We are the servants of God, doing as we should. Some translations say, "doing as we ought." The etymology of ought is 'owed'. An interesting concept? We are only doing what we owe God... That takes us back to what Jesus advised us: We are to say, we are unworthy/unprofitable servants doing only what we ought (what we owe). In either case, it is God who helps us to repay what is owed him.

Why should we expect to be rewarded for repaying what we owe.

 

[The Irish Ram]

So you are working off a debt? Paying God back what you owe Him, through good deeds?

If we are just paying God back for what we owe him, then we need neither grace nor a cross. We can work our debt off...
Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

He showers us with grace while we are in the act of sinning.

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us​

 

[SweetSue92]

Don't stop there. Ephesians goes on to say that we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance that we should live in them.

We don't deserve grace? Do we deserve oxygen? Do we deserve the talent(s) we were born with? Grace and talents are far different from rewards. It is the rewards that are undeserved because without the grace and talents that have been bestowed upon us, we would be unable to attain rewards.

We do good works because God prepared in advance that we should do them, live them. And God, being God, showers us with grace--his helping hand ever present. We are the servants of God, doing as we should. Some translations say, "doing as we ought." The etymology of ought is 'owed'. An interesting concept? We are only doing what we owe God... That takes us back to what Jesus advised us: We are to say, we are unworthy/unprofitable servants doing only what we ought (what we owe). In either case, it is God who helps us to repay what is owed him.

Why should we expect to be rewarded for repaying what we owe.

If all we're doing is paying off a debt, that debt will NEVER be paid. Never. We can never be good enough for long enough to pay the debt. The ticket price for Heaven is perfection. Do you have that in you?

 

[Meriweather]

So you are working off a debt? Paying God back what you owe Him, through good deeds?

Why the twist and change of words?

When children do their chores, is it because they are working off a debt to their parents? When a spouse does something for his/her partner is it because that is also a debt that must be repaid?

Unless you agree that children are in debt to their parents and that husbands and wives are in debt to each other, then understand what a mean, twisted thing it is to throw that accusation at the children of God. Instead, try to understand.

We are the children of God and some of us choose to be servants of God, working in his vineyard which is the planet earth. The job description: Work so that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Do the good that he planned in advance for us to do. Place the work of God first. Love one another. This is the work of the Kingdom, the work of earth's salvation so that earth becomes as heaven is. Those of us who begin the day saying, "Here I am, Lord....send me" accept that we have given our word to the Master and that we owe him our best work. Those who don't pray to be sent owe nothing. They have not asked to be hired on as servants, just as those who never marry owe nothing to a spouse.

Throughout the Bible, God has used the metaphor of marriage between himself and his people. He has used the term servants. If one does not want to be among God's people, if one does not want to serve God, no demand is made. But those who do, owe that marriage, that service, what is due to those contracts/covenants. Understand we enter each of those covenants/contracts freely, not as a person in debt. Once we enter in, we owe our best. The paradox of this is that in owing our best, we receive the best to give our best.

 

[Meriweather]

If we are just paying God back for what we owe him, then we need neither grace nor a cross. We can work our debt off...

Why the worry about paying God back? How much time and effort do people worry over paying their parents back? None? Then let's stop worrying about paying God back. That is what caused so much grief in Martin Luther's life. He kept picturing himself (much of it thanks to his father) in a deep, deep hole of debt when there was no need for that picture. No one should dig that hole for him/herself.

 

[Meriweather]

If all we're doing is paying off a debt, that debt will NEVER be paid. Never. We can never be good enough for long enough to pay the debt. The ticket price for Heaven is perfection. Do you have that in you?

Owing is not the same as being in debt, at least not in all circumstances. Examples: We owe our employers or landlords the courtesy of giving notice before we leave. When someone gives freely to us, we owe thanks. When our education is paid for, we owe our best effort.

God planned, in advance, good things for us to do. That does not put us in debt any more than our K-12 education puts us in debt. However, we do owe society our best effort both in our studies and using what we learned to benefit those who come after us. Even when people choose to do and contribute nothing in return, there is no debt.

 

[SweetSue92]

Why the worry about paying God back? How much time and effort do people worry over paying their parents back? None? Then let's stop worrying about paying God back. That is what caused so much grief in Martin Luther's life. He kept picturing himself (much of it thanks to his father) in a deep, deep hole of debt when there was no need for that picture. No one should dig that hole for him/herself.

Are you not the one who proposed this idea in the first place, that you're now arguing against?

 

[Meriweather]

Are you not the one who proposed this idea in the first place, that you're now arguing against?

No. I spoke of owing, which was immediately turned into someone being in debt. Owing and being in debt are often two very different things. Example: I have an employer. I am not in debt to that employer. However, being employed, I owe my employer an honest day's work. I have a husband. I am not in debt to my husband, but I owe him my love and fidelity.

The same is true with my relationship with God. I am not in debt to God, but I take the covenant I have entered into seriously. God promises forgiveness; I promise repentance. Those promises do not put God in debt to me; it does not put me in debt to God. Having made the promises, who is more likely to fulfill that covenant more abundantly? Hint...the more I repent, the even more God forgives. I often picture God laughing as we go through the day. It reminds me of when my kids were small trying their mightiest to carry as much as I could!

 

[The Irish Ram]

When children do their chores, is it because they are working off a debt to their parents?

No, it is for reward. Not for the breakfast they ate, or for the electric the child used last week. Their father covers their debt, and rewards the child with money that the child saves up for a video game or a bike...

That takes us back to what Jesus advised us: We are to say, we are unworthy/unprofitable servants doing only what we ought (what we owe). In either case, it is God who helps us to repay what is owed him.

Owing is debt, according to the Bible.
Roman 4:4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned.

We agree on doing good works. We disagree on what those works are for. You believe they are a repayment. I believe they are for reward. Here is the difference:

You didn't give your landlord notice and left owing him a month's rent. You will not get a referral gift from him, because you don't deserve one.
If you were renting from God, and stiffed Him, because He loves you, He will give you a referral even if you don't deserve it. It is a gift.

How long do you have to be punished in Purgatory for the sins you think Jesus failed to cover, before God decides He has been repaid for salvaging you, and grants you entry into Heaven? How much is the obligation for your eternity worth? Wouldn't you have to work for an eternity to pay for an eternity of redemption?
It is a gift. Your participation is not required.

If you believe that doing good in appreciation of and as a thank you to God for the gift God gave you, then good on you. Work heartily for the Lord.
If you believe you need to work off your portion of the redemption procedure to pay for your part in that redemption, then grace doesn't apply, but work is necessary to pay what you owe on your heavenly account. It is a debt you cannot afford or pay off.

At any rate, your good works are for reward, not redemption:

Colossians 3:23-24 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance.​

 

[Meriweather]

You believe they are a repayment.

No. I. do. not.

If I become a parent, I am not in debt to my children, but I owe them a good home. When I exchanged marriage vows with my husband, I did not put myself in debt to him. Yet I owe him my love and my fidelity. My parents were never in debt to me, but in their old age, I owed them love and care.

The New Testament/Covenant is what I entered into with God. I am not in debt to him, he is not in debt to me. Yet I owe him my love, my service, my repentance due to my part in the covenant. This is not difficult to understand, and I don't get why you can't comprehend the differences and say such silly, non-nonsensical things that I believe in repayment!

 

[The Irish Ram]

Martin Luther's life. He kept picturing himself (much of it thanks to his father) in a deep, deep hole of debt when there was no need for that picture. No one should dig that hole for him/herself.

Isn't that exactly what you have done in creating Purgatory? You have dug yourself a hole that you don't need...

 

[Meriweather]

Owing is debt, according to the Bible.
Roman 4:4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned.

It is a contract. One person offers something in return for another person doing something. Put any other words you want, but it remains a contract, an agreement. There is an exchange on both sides.