Jewish Democracy?

[amity1844]

The supreme court you also supported before made his call so what?
This is just a very poor attempt to change the nature of Israel in order to legalize Palestinians, not gonna work.

My point exactamente.

So what good does it do for Arabs to have citizenship and voting rights? it is meaningless.

YES, MEANINGLESS.

There is no such thing as Israeli nationality. The only nationality with official status in Israel is "Jewish". So the Palestinians ARE, as you state, illegal.

 

[amity1844]

I heard about this. I don't see how is that relevant?

You cannot change your nationality from Jew to Israeli, because the starting point, is that you're israeli if you have a blue ID.

If you're not, then your a resident or civilian of any other state. The question of whatever you prefer to not be considered Jewish is not up to the Israeli court to decide, and not even a religious court.

If you're born to a Jewish mother, you're a Jew. If you're with a blue ID, you're Israeli, with no connection to the nationality.

So I really don't get it.

No, apparently you don't.

THE ISRAELI SUPREME COURT HAS DECIDED THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ISRAELI NATIONALITY.

Now do you get it? The only nationality with standing in Israel is "Jewish."

 

[Lipush]

I heard about this. I don't see how is that relevant?

You cannot change your nationality from Jew to Israeli, because the starting point, is that you're israeli if you have a blue ID.

If you're not, then your a resident or civilian of any other state. The question of whatever you prefer to not be considered Jewish is not up to the Israeli court to decide, and not even a religious court.

If you're born to a Jewish mother, you're a Jew. If you're with a blue ID, you're Israeli, with no connection to the nationality.

So I really don't get it.

No, apparently you don't.

THE ISRAELI SUPREME COURT HAS DECIDED THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ISRAELI NATIONALITY.

Now do you get it? The only nationality with standing in Israel is "Jewish."

And how exactly did you jump to that conclusion?!

There are certain things that the Israeli supreme couty doesn't decide upon itself, the status quo of Israel is one of them.

How is its refusal to change nationality of someone, indicates anything in general? The only nationality is "Jewish"? What would have happened of those were Arabs, wanting to be considered "Israeli nationality" instead of "Arab" nationality?

Wow, you talk such nonsense!

 

[amity1844]

If the only nationality recognized in Israel is "Jewish" then what is the point of giving Arabs citizenship? Just to provide a fig leaf for racism is all I can see.

 

[docmauser1]

The only reason democracy in America and many other parts of the world works is because all religions, races and creeds are treated equally under the law.

Comical bullshit.

 

[irosie91]

Its not a race. Genetically there is very little distinction between Jews (modern or ancient) and others from the same region of the middle east.

And it is not a single culture, either. It is many cultures, many of which have very little in common.

YOU do not get to decide what jews who have sojourned in various parts of the world
HAVE IN COMMON-----jews decide that. In fact jews from all over the world recognize
themselves as having LOTS IN COMMON------in fact a lot more than do SHIITES AND SUNNIS from the same lands. It so interests me because I saw it UP CLOSE. Long ago---when I was young (and beautiful) I was in a strange position-----I greeted NEW
COMERS to the USA ---here for advanced professional training-----most of them either
Hindus or muslims ----from here and there---iran, asia , Africa---etc I was young and
MOST IMPRESSED by how little muslims from various parts of the world have
IN COMMON whereas I as a jew----had an immediate COMMONALITY with the
rare person in the group who was also a JEW (FOR EXAMPLE A JEW FROM IRAN---OR
India)------I DID NOTICE THAT MUSLIMS FROM VARIOUS PLACES ACTUALLY HATED
EACH OTHER Iranian MUSLIMS HATED Pakistani MUSLIMS, AND ARAB MUSLIMS---??
AND THEN AFTER A LONG TIME I EVEN BEGAN TO SEE THE SHIITE SUNNI THING.'

It was a surprise to me. but it did explain the Islamic propaganda at the time----
"Israel will soon disappear because the Ashkenazi jews and Sephardi jews are killing
each other" LOL ----the Pakistani laughed in my face when I denied his "FACTS"

sorry Aenmity---the fact is Jews from timbuctu marry jews from Odessa. etc
etc No matter how earnestly you pray to your "god" ----jews from Poland are
not murdering jews from roumania. Another ERNEST hope found in islamo Nazi
propaganda is------the various SECTS of jews are killing each other-----NOPE---that
is not happening either The Satmar chassidim are not killing the Lubavitch
chassidim and-----the rest of us are not killing either of those groups

 

[amity1844]

The only nationality with standing in Israel is "Jewish."

And how exactly did you jump to that conclusion?!

There are certain things that the Israeli supreme couty doesn't decide upon itself, the status quo of Israel is one of them.

How is its refusal to change nationality of someone, indicates anything in general? The only nationality is "Jewish"? What would have happened of those were Arabs, wanting to be considered "Israeli nationality" instead of "Arab" nationality?

Wow, you talk such nonsense!

Exactly.

For those who are as confused as hell about what is at stake here, the "Israeli nationality" movement in Israel is an attempt to grant full civil rights to all Israeli citizens, Arabs included, based upon Israeli nationality alone. IOW, all Israeli citizens should have the same rights, Jews and Arabs together, irregardless of ethnicity. A good parallel would be the U.S. during the civil rights movement of the 1960s, during which whites and blacks were joining hands and saying "we are all equally American, and we should have equal political and civil rights." Of course blacks at that time did have the right to vote and had had such for many generations, but the (unspoken) interpretation of Americanism was that it allowed special privileges on the majority white population. This was what the civil rights movement challenged.

What was implicit in Jim Crow America is and always has been explicit in Israel, which understands itself as a "Jewish state." (By contrast, the U.S. thankfully never had an explicit legal foundation justifying itself as a "white state.") So a group of Israeli citizens, both Jewish and Arab together, has been challenging the denial of civil and political rights to Arab citizens by arguing that Israeli citizenship should confer national rights upon all Israelis equally, and that, for example, identity cards should not identify "Jew" and "Arab" but only "Israeli." The Israeli supreme court met this legal challenge by stating very explicitly for the first time "the only nationality recognized by Israel is "Jewish." The term "Israeli" is legally meaningless. No rights for Arabs.

This legal interpretation has no relevance to Palestinians in the occupied territories or outside of Israel, it is only referring to so-called "Israeli Arabs," that is, those with Israeli citizenship.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Have you heard that term... Jewish Democracy?

Does a democracy with second class citizenship for ANY definable segment of a population make sense?

Is it even possible?​

How can a state of more than one religion call itself a democracy if a single one owns the government?



My humble opinion: The Israelis are digging in deep on the wrong side of history. Just as wrong as those who would fight to impose Sharia Law on a state.

You can either have something akin to Jewish Sharia Law, or you can have a democracy.

"Jewish Democracy" is a joke. ​

`​

Your not to bright huh?

(1) Every Israel citizen received one vote! To which 1.5 million are Muslim.
(2) Muslims vote you look up Parliament member Zobia. That **** openly states her desire is the destruction of Israel. I person think they should drop her off in Taliban country and see how much she like her freedom in Israel. Nevertheless, Israel doesn't disqualify her and let's her serve because she won the election.
(3) Arabs serve on the supreme court, every branch of government, as mayors, in the military and are free to run for any position of government.
(4) In fact there are more Muslims in the Israeli Parliament than there are non-Muslims all the other Arab (except Lebanon), Persian, Pakistani, Bageshi, Afghani, Kosovian country parliaments combined.
(5) Israel has private property, free press, free and open election. free speech, freedom of religion and free enterprise.


So in summary, your ignorant ass can go **** yourself!

Are you applauding his incoherent strings of words, the piss-poor grammar, or the childish insults that punctuate the post?

Just curious...

 

[Daniyel]

Your not to bright huh?

(1) Every Israel citizen received one vote! To which 1.5 million are Muslim.
(2) Muslims vote you look up Parliament member Zobia. That **** openly states her desire is the destruction of Israel. I person think they should drop her off in Taliban country and see how much she like her freedom in Israel. Nevertheless, Israel doesn't disqualify her and let's her serve because she won the election.
(3) Arabs serve on the supreme court, every branch of government, as mayors, in the military and are free to run for any position of government.
(4) In fact there are more Muslims in the Israeli Parliament than there are non-Muslims all the other Arab (except Lebanon), Persian, Pakistani, Bageshi, Afghani, Kosovian country parliaments combined.
(5) Israel has private property, free press, free and open election. free speech, freedom of religion and free enterprise.


So in summary, your ignorant ass can go **** yourself!

Are you applauding his incoherent strings of words, the piss-poor grammar, or the childish insults that punctuate the post?

Just curious...

It doesn't matter, some people here don't like each other for their own reasons, I don't see why digging it would bring any good to the question you've asked.
Anyway, if you have any opinion to share I would be glad to hear it, I think I pretty much answered your last question, meanwhile-
Peace, Danny.

 

[Lipush]

If the only nationality recognized in Israel is "Jewish" then what is the point of giving Arabs citizenship? Just to provide a fig leaf for racism is all I can see.

That is not the case at all!

Will you please stop the nonsense!? you make absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever.

 

[RoccoR]

@AVE-JOE, et al,

I think, in broad terms, this argument has gone off-track; if it ever was on track.

(OBSERVATION)

There seems to be confusion in the use of certain terminologies. For instance, there is no such thing as "Jewish Democracy." Democracy has no modifiers; you either have it, or you don't. But a pure democracy has its drawbacks. And that is why America is not a Democracy, but a Republic.

There are very Important Distinction between a Democracy versus Republic, the greatest of these is the protection of rights between the Majority and the Minority. In a Democracy, the Minority, have little protections against the unlimited power of a government in which the strength rests with Majority Rule. In a Republic, a constitutionally limited government, unalienable rights and therefore for the protection of the rights of the Minority.

Similarly, I see some people confusion Nationality and citizenship; they are not interchangeable and they are not synonyms for the purposes used in this discussion.

For the purposes of this discussion, as it is in Israel, the term "nationality" applies to an individual as it relates to the country of birth; it is not an inherited characteristic or parental trait passed on from the parents to offspring. An individual becomes a citizen of a country when, in general, that individual holds or accepts the obligations to a political framework (a country or nation) in some sense; a right of self-determination. And this is not that dissimilar to law in Israel.

(COMMENT #1)

Be that as it may, the original posting by our friend AVE-JOE posed the primary question:

• Have you heard that term... Jewish Democracy?

I can say that I have not. But it implies that in a given population, the Majority is Jewish; and omnipotent over any other Minority group not related to or belonging to a people descended from the ancient Hebrews.

(COMMENT #2)

In the original posting by our friend AVE-JOE posed the secondary question:

• How can a state of more than one religion call itself a democracy if a single one owns the government?

In a Democracy, the Majority Characteristic is not a determining factor; that is, it does not matter what the characteristic is versus the characteristic of any other Minority group.

The chief characteristic and distinguishing feature of a Democracy is: Rule by Omnipotent Majority. In a Democracy, The Individual, and any group of Individuals composing any Minority, have no protection against the unlimited power of The Majority. It is a case of Majority-over-Man.

The key difference between a democracy and a republic lies in the limits placed on government by the law, which has implications on minority rights. Both forms of government use a representational system where citizens vote to elect politicians to represent their interests and form the government. However, in a republic, a constitution or charter of rights protects certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government, even if it has been elected by a majority of voters. In a pure democracy, the majority is not restrained and can impose its will on the minority.

MULTIPLE SOURCES:

• Diffen Compare Anything ›› Democracy vs. Republic
• From The American Ideal of 1776: The Twelve Basic American Principles.

​

(COMMENT #3)

THEN, In the original posting by our friend AVE-JOE makes the conclusion that:

• "Jewish Democracy" is a joke.

"IF" there is a joke, then it is in the implication that Israel is ruled by the Jewish omnipotent majority over a non-Jewish minority; where an individual, and any group of non-Jewish individuals composing the minority, have no protection against the unlimited power of the Jewish majority. "IF" that is accurate and true --- "THEN" by definition - Israel would be a characteristic democracy. Because that is exactly what a true democracy does.

(OPPOSING VIEW)

I contend that neither the US or Israel are a "Democracy;" but that they are "Republics." I think each nations has in place a a constitution, charter, or set of basic laws which protects certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government, even if it has been elected by a majority of voters.

In the case of Israeli Nationality and Citizenship, I would point to NATIONALITY LAW, 5712-1952* PART ONE: ACQUISITION OF NATIONALITY (passed by the Knesset April 1, 1952); and the LAW OF RETURN 5710-1950, through birth, residence and naturalization. It is all part of the "right of the Israeli to determine their own destiny;" as a people and as a nation. They get to define themselves within their sovereignty.

It is most odd that the Arab world, and particularly the Palestinian, would challenge the right of a people to select the ways and means of self-rule and government. Particularly since they always raise the issue for themselves as the victim of external interference.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[irosie91]

THANKS for your very scholarly review --Mr R.
it should be noted that there was an EXCERCISE in democracy in a small country
---an island in south east asia MALDIVES In that country a DEMOCRATE VOTE--
disenfranchised all persons living on the island who are not muslims. BY democratic
referendum----Maldives with a muslim majority determined that non muslims will no
longer be eligible for citizenship----and non muslim citizens are simply not citizens
any longer.

 

[amity1844]

If the only nationality recognized in Israel is "Jewish" then what is the point of giving Arabs citizenship? Just to provide a fig leaf for racism is all I can see.

That is not the case at all!

Will you please stop the nonsense!? you make absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever.

Lipush, maybe you don't speak English as a first language. I wish I could speak enough Hebrew to refer you to a good article. But at least please read the articles in English and look up the Israeli supreme court findings.

The Israeli supreme court DID indeed say that the only nationality recognized by Israel is "Jewish."

And Rocco,this time your post looks like sheer sophistry, totally pointless in sidestepping the issues in the original post. Did the supreme court actually issue such a ruling? If so, what does it mean?

Furthermore, Israel's majority, that is the majority of people living under Israeli control, has a majority of Palestinians already. So then it would seem that THEY should rule, with full protection of the rights of the Jewish minority. Don't look back to 1950, look at the recent evolution of Israel's self concept, which totally excludes anyone who is not Jewish.

 

[Lipush]

That is not the point. The point is that you said the only nationality Israel allows is a Jewish one, and you take it as base for saying that Muslims and Christians are not having the same rights.

That, not only has nothing to do with it, but doesn't stand any ground to start with.

If you say Muslims and Christians in Israel don't have the same rights as Jews, do it correctly, factually, bring us facts- LAWS, that support that claim.

If you may.

 

[amity1844]

That is not the point. The point is that you said the only nationality Israel allows is a Jewish one, and you take it as base for saying that Muslims and Christians are not having the same rights.

That, not only has nothing to do with it, but doesn't stand any ground to start with.

If you say Muslims and Christians in Israel don't have the same rights as Jews, do it correctly, factually, bring us facts- LAWS, that support that claim.

If you may.

Lipush! Again, I can research and find all sorts of sources, articles, the name of the Israeli supreme court justices, and if you refuse to read them then God almighty won't be able to prove anything to the tiny little mind in your hard, pointy little head.

You are just going to have to read the sources I already linked.

Israel's Palestinians Confined to a 'Citizenship' that is Meaningless
Uzzi Ornan displays his ID card - which unlike a passport does not have any mention of an Israeli nationality.

The Israel's Supreme Court recently rejected a claim that there was an Israeli nationality. The claim was brought by Uzzi Ornan, a 90-year-old linguistics processor at the Technion, Tel Aviv. An Israeli nationality would undermine the 'Jewish' nature of the Israeli state.

The judgment reinforces the decision in a similar case was brought by George Tamarin in 1970. In the Tamarin case the Supreme Court, presided over by Justice Agranat held that ‘the desire to create an Israeli nation separate from the Jewish nation is not a legitimate aspiration.’

See this blog (can it be? yet another anti-Zionist Jew...):
Tony Greenstein's Blog: Israel's Supreme Court Confirms That There is no Israeli Nationality

Here's another good article:
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis: Reading the Supreme Court?s decisions on Israeli nationality | Mondoweiss

and one from the Israeli press:
Jerusalem - Court Rejects Citizens' Request To Change Nationality From 'Jewish' To 'Israeli'

 

[Daniyel]

That is not the point. The point is that you said the only nationality Israel allows is a Jewish one, and you take it as base for saying that Muslims and Christians are not having the same rights.

That, not only has nothing to do with it, but doesn't stand any ground to start with.

If you say Muslims and Christians in Israel don't have the same rights as Jews, do it correctly, factually, bring us facts- LAWS, that support that claim.

If you may.

Lipush! Again, I can research and find all sorts of sources, articles, the name of the Israeli supreme court justices, and if you refuse to read them then God almighty won't be able to prove anything to the tiny little mind in your hard, pointy little head.

You are just going to have to read the sources I already linked.

Israel's Palestinians Confined to a 'Citizenship' that is Meaningless
Uzzi Ornan displays his ID card - which unlike a passport does not have any mention of an Israeli nationality.

The Israel's Supreme Court recently rejected a claim that there was an Israeli nationality. The claim was brought by Uzzi Ornan, a 90-year-old linguistics processor at the Technion, Tel Aviv. An Israeli nationality would undermine the 'Jewish' nature of the Israeli state.

The judgment reinforces the decision in a similar case was brought by George Tamarin in 1970. In the Tamarin case the Supreme Court, presided over by Justice Agranat held that ‘the desire to create an Israeli nation separate from the Jewish nation is not a legitimate aspiration.’

See this blog (can it be? yet another anti-Zionist Jew...):
Tony Greenstein's Blog: Israel's Supreme Court Confirms That There is no Israeli Nationality

Here's another good article:
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis: Reading the Supreme Court?s decisions on Israeli nationality | Mondoweiss

and one from the Israeli press:
Jerusalem - Court Rejects Citizens' Request To Change Nationality From 'Jewish' To 'Israeli'

Again, Can I be Polish? I want to be Polish.

 

[AVG-JOE]

The only reason democracy in America and many other parts of the world works is because all religions, races and creeds are treated equally under the law.

Comical bullshit.

Why?

Be specific. I love a good joke.

`​

 

[amity1844]

That is not the point. The point is that you said the only nationality Israel allows is a Jewish one, and you take it as base for saying that Muslims and Christians are not having the same rights.

That, not only has nothing to do with it, but doesn't stand any ground to start with.

If you say Muslims and Christians in Israel don't have the same rights as Jews, do it correctly, factually, bring us facts- LAWS, that support that claim.

If you may.

Lipush! Again, I can research and find all sorts of sources, articles, the name of the Israeli supreme court justices, and if you refuse to read them then God almighty won't be able to prove anything to the tiny little mind in your hard, pointy little head.

You are just going to have to read the sources I already linked.

Israel's Palestinians Confined to a 'Citizenship' that is Meaningless
Uzzi Ornan displays his ID card - which unlike a passport does not have any mention of an Israeli nationality.

The Israel's Supreme Court recently rejected a claim that there was an Israeli nationality. The claim was brought by Uzzi Ornan, a 90-year-old linguistics processor at the Technion, Tel Aviv. An Israeli nationality would undermine the 'Jewish' nature of the Israeli state.

The judgment reinforces the decision in a similar case was brought by George Tamarin in 1970. In the Tamarin case the Supreme Court, presided over by Justice Agranat held that ‘the desire to create an Israeli nation separate from the Jewish nation is not a legitimate aspiration.’

See this blog (can it be? yet another anti-Zionist Jew...):
Tony Greenstein's Blog: Israel's Supreme Court Confirms That There is no Israeli Nationality

Here's another good article:
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis: Reading the Supreme Court?s decisions on Israeli nationality | Mondoweiss

and one from the Israeli press:
Jerusalem - Court Rejects Citizens' Request To Change Nationality From 'Jewish' To 'Israeli'

Again, Can I be Polish? I want to be Polish.

You are most welcome to join any state you can talk into having you. But I suggest defecting from the state of denial first.

 

[irosie91]

I read your sources aenmity----they do not reveal anything consistent with
"non jews have no rights" in Israel Much of the crap you cite simply
states OPINION that it would be a good idea to let people use "Israeli"
as a "nationality" on their official papers. However your stuff does not
supply any evidence that denying that option renders a person "NOT HAVING
CIVIL RIGHTS" Lipush simply asked-----what laws deny RIGHTS to
Christian or Muslim Israeli citizens-----a question you refuse to answer---but CLAIM
that the answers are buried somewhere in your citations

In my USA papers----I am required to correctly state my date of birth----using
the GREGORIAN CALENDAR dates--------does the fact that I cannot use
a MAYAN calendar constitute an infringement on my civil rights?

I even have to state ---correctly ---the state in which I was born-----
shall I object?

 

[irosie91]

Here is more for you----aenmity. Way back circa 1970----I attended some
very important program regarding SEXUAL IDENTITY-----there was a discussion
as to whether or not it is -----an impingement on a child's rights to ASSIGN
a gender----on the birth certificate. It was a very serious matter---I was
REQUIRED TO ATTEND ------I assure you----lots of people were of the opinion
that any Sexual stereotyping -----or assignment is A VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS