Jewish Democracy?

[AVG-JOE]

Have you heard that term... Jewish Democracy?

Does a democracy with second class citizenship for ANY definable segment of a population make sense?

Is it even possible?​

How can a state of more than one religion call itself a democracy if a single one owns the government?



My humble opinion: The Israelis are digging in deep on the wrong side of history. Just as wrong as those who would fight to impose Sharia Law on a state.

You can either have something akin to Jewish Sharia Law, or you can have a democracy.

"Jewish Democracy" is a joke. ​

`​

 

[AVG-JOE]

The only reason democracy in America and many other parts of the world works is because all religions, races and creeds are treated equally under the law. American history is no prime example of equal treatment under the law, but The United States Constitution is. We have made a LOT of progress over the last 238 years on implementing it as written, and We have more Time.

Fortunately, there were some differences of both physique and beliefs among the good, white, male Christian Monkeys who produced and funded that wonderful nation forming document. Those differences inspired just enough fear of singling out any of their commonalities for special treatment under the law that they used the word "all" and it's derivatives quite Liberally throughout. Although in practice, their world was quite different from the ideals they were putting on paper.

The Good News: all means ALL. ​

I can't help but smile as Time marches on and more and more of the Monkeys who aren't just like the good, white, Christian men who drafted that beautiful, 145 word document, use it to get a more fair slice of the American Pie.


The road to any living journey, like Momma's shot at Sentience and the Stars, begins with baby steps.

`​

 

[AVG-JOE]

Is 'Religious Democracy' possible?

Would Israel fare better just admitting it's a theocracy and ACT like a Jewish state?

I mean, the bar being set by modern Islamic states isn't too high...

 

[Indeependent]

Israel is Democratic, not a Democracy.

Sort of like the US.

 

[Daniyel]

Israel is Democratic, not a Democracy.

Sort of like the US.

True, in Israel you have the freedom to believe, say, be whatever you like to as long as it doesn't harm others.
And Israel does not favor religion, it favors the Race of Jews to return to Israel by law and receive Israeli ID, But of course the Arab League States are so advance and democratically give such freedom to anyone!!

 

[jillian]

Have you heard that term... Jewish Democracy?

Does a democracy with second class citizenship for ANY definable segment of a population make sense?

Is it even possible?​

How can a state of more than one religion call itself a democracy if a single one owns the government?



My humble opinion: The Israelis are digging in deep on the wrong side of history. Just as wrong as those who would fight to impose Sharia Law on a state.

You can either have something akin to Jewish Sharia Law, or you can have a democracy.

"Jewish Democracy" is a joke. ​

`​

palestinians aren't israeli "citizens". israeli arabs are even represented in the knesset. what arab countries have jewish representation or, minimally, haven't tossed and persecuted their jews?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Israel is Democratic, not a Democracy.

Sort of like the US.

Ah, but unlike the US, which specifically defines all religions as equal under the law, Israel wants to define itself as a Jewish Democracy.

My thesis is that's impossible.

I'm not saying that having a Jewish state is wrong... It could be that the best thing for this world would be for the Jews and the Muslims to draw more definitive lines around their respective sand-boxes... it's just weird trying to wrap my head around the term "Jewish Democracy".



The ancient stories are making us look stupid from space. Again.

And Monkeys wonder why nobody visits.....​

 

[amity1844]

Have you heard that term... Jewish Democracy?

Does a democracy with second class citizenship for ANY definable segment of a population make sense?

Is it even possible?​

How can a state of more than one religion call itself a democracy if a single one owns the government?



My humble opinion: The Israelis are digging in deep on the wrong side of history. Just as wrong as those who would fight to impose Sharia Law on a state.

You can either have something akin to Jewish Sharia Law, or you can have a democracy.

"Jewish Democracy" is a joke. ​

`​

Very insightful, very correct, and very grateful you posted this.

I'VE BEEN TRYING TO TELL THEM ...!!!!!

 

[Daniyel]

Israel is Democratic, not a Democracy.

Sort of like the US.

Ah, but unlike the US, which specifically defines all religions as equal under the law, Israel wants to define itself as a Jewish Democracy.

My thesis is that's impossible.

I'm not saying that having a Jewish state is wrong... It could be that the best thing for this world would be for the Jews and the Muslims to draw more definitive lines around their respective sand-boxes... it's just weird trying to wrap my head around the term "Jewish Democracy".



The ancient stories are making us look stupid from space. Again.

And Monkeys wonder why nobody visits.....​

The declaration of Israel was : 'Establishing of a Jewish Democratic State in Israel, and be named Israel'
But you seem to know how to define me better than myself, go ahead, define Jewish.
P.S. Welcome back Amity, your nonsense were missing, I guess now that Gaza is under Israeli Humanitarian truce you find a good time to show up and convince us otherwise.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Have you heard that term... Jewish Democracy?

Does a democracy with second class citizenship for ANY definable segment of a population make sense?

Is it even possible?​

How can a state of more than one religion call itself a democracy if a single one owns the government?



My humble opinion: The Israelis are digging in deep on the wrong side of history. Just as wrong as those who would fight to impose Sharia Law on a state.

You can either have something akin to Jewish Sharia Law, or you can have a democracy.

"Jewish Democracy" is a joke. ​

`​

palestinians aren't israeli "citizens". israeli arabs are even represented in the knesset. what arab countries have jewish representation or, minimally, haven't tossed and persecuted their jews?

What's going on elsewhere is another question and separate point. The term "Islamic Democracy" is never floated, because the joke is obvious.

I just feel that the same should apply to any "Religious Democracy". If it quacks like a Theocracy...


As far as Arabs in general, and their representation in Israeli politics today, specifically goes, my knowledge is very limited. But I do know how I feel every time someone says that the United States is (or should be) a 'Christian Nation'.

I also believe that if I were to have an opportunity to make a good life for myself in Israel, the feeling of truly owning citizenship would always be off the table.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Israel is Democratic, not a Democracy.

Sort of like the US.

Ah, but unlike the US, which specifically defines all religions as equal under the law, Israel wants to define itself as a Jewish Democracy.

My thesis is that's impossible.

I'm not saying that having a Jewish state is wrong... It could be that the best thing for this world would be for the Jews and the Muslims to draw more definitive lines around their respective sand-boxes... it's just weird trying to wrap my head around the term "Jewish Democracy".



The ancient stories are making us look stupid from space. Again.

And Monkeys wonder why nobody visits.....​

The declaration of Israel was : 'Establishing of a Jewish Democratic State in Israel, and be named Israel'
But you seem to know how to define me better than myself, go ahead, define Jewish.
P.S. Welcome back Amity, your nonsense were missing, I guess now that Gaza is under Israeli Humanitarian truce you find a good time to show up and convince us otherwise.

Dude... I have no clue how to define Jewish - nor do I want to have one.

I'm hung up on 'democracy' in a state with an 'official religion'.

It's impossible, no?

 

[Daniyel]

Have you heard that term... Jewish Democracy?

Does a democracy with second class citizenship for ANY definable segment of a population make sense?

Is it even possible?​

How can a state of more than one religion call itself a democracy if a single one owns the government?



My humble opinion: The Israelis are digging in deep on the wrong side of history. Just as wrong as those who would fight to impose Sharia Law on a state.

You can either have something akin to Jewish Sharia Law, or you can have a democracy.

"Jewish Democracy" is a joke. ​

`​

palestinians aren't israeli "citizens". israeli arabs are even represented in the knesset. what arab countries have jewish representation or, minimally, haven't tossed and persecuted their jews?

What's going on elsewhere is another question and separate point. The term "Islamic Democracy" is never floated, because the joke is obvious.

I just feel that the same should apply to any "Religious Democracy". If it quacks like a Theocracy...


As far as Arabs in general, and their representation in Israeli politics today, specifically goes, my knowledge is very limited. But I do know how I feel every time someone says that the United States is (or should be) a 'Christian Nation'.

I also believe that if I were to have an opportunity to make a good life for myself in Israel, the feeling of truly owning citizen would always be off the table.

You are deluded since in many Israeli Arabs like the life in Israel, many serve in the IDF, and many of them also vote to Shas, Bait Yehudi, Likod, and other parties which are definitely not Arab or Muslim.
Majority of the population usually get the more influence in democracy and so it is in Israel, although we have many laws to assist minorities such choosing Women or Minority for a job rather than Majority along with many others.
And it also applies not only to Israeli Arabs but also to Duruze, Bedoiun, Copts, Maronites, Argentines, Samertines, Circassians, Armenians, Assyrians, African, and legal outside workers.
"May God bless America" - Including atheists.

 

[jillian]

Ah, but unlike the US, which specifically defines all religions as equal under the law, Israel wants to define itself as a Jewish Democracy.

My thesis is that's impossible.

I'm not saying that having a Jewish state is wrong... It could be that the best thing for this world would be for the Jews and the Muslims to draw more definitive lines around their respective sand-boxes... it's just weird trying to wrap my head around the term "Jewish Democracy".



The ancient stories are making us look stupid from space. Again.

And Monkeys wonder why nobody visits.....​

The declaration of Israel was : 'Establishing of a Jewish Democratic State in Israel, and be named Israel'
But you seem to know how to define me better than myself, go ahead, define Jewish.
P.S. Welcome back Amity, your nonsense were missing, I guess now that Gaza is under Israeli Humanitarian truce you find a good time to show up and convince us otherwise.

Dude... I have no clue how to define Jewish - nor do I want to have one.

I'm hung up on 'democracy' in a state with an 'official religion'.

It's impossible, no?

i'm going to go back to what i said before and ask why this only ever comes up with the one jewish state the size of new jersey and not with the dozen muslim countries.

israel IS a democracy. that does not mean they have to allow themselves to be overrun by people whose only goal is its destruction.

 

[amity1844]

Daniyel - So glad you missed me. I occasionally have other fish to fry.

Zionists state that Israel is a democracy because Israeli Arabs have the vote. Here's what is inaccurate about Israel's self-characterization as a "democracy."

In Israel civil rights are not based on citizenship, and citizenship confers no rights on Arabs. Ali Abunimah describes Israel as the only country that does not recognize its own nationality. He points out that in Israel’s population registry, the ethnicity of all citizens (Jewish, Arab, Druze, etc.) is recorded. Some Jewish Israelis have since 1970 begun asking to have their denotation as “Jewish” replaced by a designation as “Israeli.” In September of 2013 the Israeli supreme court ruled that

"There is no such thing as an Israeli nationality separate from the Jewish people. To recognize such a thing would jeopardize the Jewish and democratic character of the state.”

In other words, if rights began to be conferred based on citizenship rather than membership in an ethnic group, either Israel’s Jewishness or its democracy would have to be abrogated.

Abunimah goes on to identify other serious restrictions on the rights of Palestinian citizens of Israel. The first he mentions concerns land ownership. When Palestinians were dispossessed during and after 1948, much of the land taken went to the Jewish National Fund. The JNF charter stipulates that it can only lease or sell land to Jews. Palestinians are not allowed to lease/buy land, much like the restrictive covenants of the pre-civil rights America that forbade whites to sell real estate to blacks. Furthermore, rabbis who are state employees have publicly called on Jews not to rent to Arabs, and in the length of Israel’s history it has not built a single establishment of any kind for so-called "Israeli Arabs".

The second disability the Israeli legal system places on Arab citizens is that of marriage inequality in Israel. There is no civil marriage in Israel. All marriages must be contracted under Jewish establishment, or they are not recognized under Israeli law. In 2003 a law was passed making it illegal for an Israeli to marry a Palestinian (or by extension in 2012, any other Arab). This almost exactly parallels the anti-miscegenation laws of the pre-civil rights United States, and of apartheid South Africa. He quotes Israeli supreme court justice Asher Grunis:

"Human rights are not a prescription for national suicide. The right to a family life does not have to be realized within the borders of Israel."

and compares Grunis to David Millan of South Africa in 1953:

"Equality must inevitably mean to the white man nothing less than national suicide."

The two state solution Abunimah characterizes as an effort to conceal racism and legitimize it. Many supporters have been comfortable about ending the occupation but cannot accept Palestinian rights, including especially the right of return. Peter Beinart is an allegedly liberal Zionist and supporter of the two state solution.

I am not asking Israel to be utopian. I am not asking it to allow Palestinians who were forced or or fled in 1948 to return to their homes. I am not even asking it to allow full equal citizenship to Arab Israeli since that would require Israel to no longer be a Jewish state. I am actually pretty willing to compromise my liberalism for Israel’s security and for its status as a Jewish state.

Thus Abunimah concludes Beinart embraces a Palestinian state not out of any concern for Palestinian rights or justice, but solely to legitimize the removal of Palestinians.

This is a video Tinmore posted a few weeks back that covers this subject:

 

[amity1844]

You are deluded since in many Israeli Arabs like the life in Israel, many serve in the IDF, and many of them also vote to Shas, Bait Yehudi, Likod, and other parties which are definitely not Arab or Muslim.
Majority of the population usually get the more influence in democracy and so it is in Israel, although we have many laws to assist minorities such choosing Women or Minority for a job rather than Majority along with many others.

This is totally inapropos. JEWS AND NON-JEWS DO NOT HAVE EQUAL LEGAL STATUS IN ISRAEL.

So, Daniyel, I've got to ask, what do you believe will happen when Arabs become the majority again in a few decades? Golda Meir used to say she couldn't sleep at night for worrying about how many Palestinian babies were being born.

 

[Daniyel]

Daniyel - So glad you missed me. I occasionally have other fish to fry.

Zionists state that Israel is a democracy because Israeli Arabs have the vote. Here's what is inaccurate about Israel's self-characterization as a "democracy."

In Israel civil rights are not based on citizenship, and citizenship confers no rights on Arabs. Ali Abunimah describes Israel as the only country that does not recognize its own nationality. He points out that in Israel’s population registry, the ethnicity of all citizens (Jewish, Arab, Druze, etc.) is recorded. Some Jewish Israelis have since 1970 begun asking to have their denotation as “Jewish” replaced by a designation as “Israeli.” In September of 2013 the Israeli supreme court ruled that

"There is no such thing as an Israeli nationality separate from the Jewish people. To recognize such a thing would jeopardize the Jewish and democratic character of the state.”

In other words, if rights began to be conferred based on citizenship rather than membership in an ethnic group, either Israel’s Jewishness or its democracy would have to be abrogated.

Abunimah goes on to identify other serious restrictions on the rights of Palestinian citizens of Israel. The first he mentions concerns land ownership. When Palestinians were dispossessed during and after 1948, much of the land taken went to the Jewish National Fund. The JNF charter stipulates that it can only lease or sell land to Jews. Palestinians are not allowed to lease/buy land, much like the restrictive covenants of the pre-civil rights America that forbade whites to sell real estate to blacks. Furthermore, rabbis who are state employees have publicly called on Jews not to rent to Arabs, and in the length of Israel’s history it has not built a single establishment of any kind for so-called "Israeli Arabs".

The second disability the Israeli legal system places on Arab citizens is that of marriage inequality in Israel. There is no civil marriage in Israel. All marriages must be contracted under Jewish establishment, or they are not recognized under Israeli law. In 2003 a law was passed making it illegal for an Israeli to marry a Palestinian (or by extension in 2012, any other Arab). This almost exactly parallels the anti-miscegenation laws of the pre-civil rights United States, and of apartheid South Africa. He quotes Israeli supreme court justice Asher Grunis:

"Human rights are not a prescription for national suicide. The right to a family life does not have to be realized within the borders of Israel."

and compares Grunis to David Millan of South Africa in 1953:

"Equality must inevitably mean to the white man nothing less than national suicide."

The two state solution Abunimah characterizes as an effort to conceal racism and legitimize it. Many supporters have been comfortable about ending the occupation but cannot accept Palestinian rights, including especially the right of return. Peter Beinart is an allegedly liberal Zionist and supporter of the two state solution.

I am not asking Israel to be utopian. I am not asking it to allow Palestinians who were forced or or fled in 1948 to return to their homes. I am not even asking it to allow full equal citizenship to Arab Israeli since that would require Israel to no longer be a Jewish state. I am actually pretty willing to compromise my liberalism for Israel’s security and for its status as a Jewish state.

Thus Abunimah concludes Beinart embraces a Palestinian state not out of any concern for Palestinian rights or justice, but solely to legitimize the removal of Palestinians.

This is a video Tinmore posted a few weeks back that covers this subject:

I'm sorry Amity, but I don't believe any word this man has to say about the way WE choose to run OUR own state, I got friends of all races, religions and political opinion and I don't see any way you can change that fact.

 

[amity1844]

DON'T BURY IT, RESPOND TO IT!

If you think is a lie, come up with quote from the Israeli supreme court, or other policy source, to prove your point.
It doesn't matter who your friends are, the real questions are ... can Palestinians buy land? What about the marriage laws? Did the Israeli supreme court really say those things??

Daniyel - So glad you missed me. I occasionally have other fish to fry.

Zionists state that Israel is a democracy because Israeli Arabs have the vote. Here's what is inaccurate about Israel's self-characterization as a "democracy."

In Israel civil rights are not based on citizenship, and citizenship confers no rights on Arabs. Ali Abunimah describes Israel as the only country that does not recognize its own nationality. He points out that in Israel’s population registry, the ethnicity of all citizens (Jewish, Arab, Druze, etc.) is recorded. Some Jewish Israelis have since 1970 begun asking to have their denotation as “Jewish” replaced by a designation as “Israeli.” In September of 2013 the Israeli supreme court ruled that

"There is no such thing as an Israeli nationality separate from the Jewish people. To recognize such a thing would jeopardize the Jewish and democratic character of the state.”

In other words, if rights began to be conferred based on citizenship rather than membership in an ethnic group, either Israel’s Jewishness or its democracy would have to be abrogated.

Abunimah goes on to identify other serious restrictions on the rights of Palestinian citizens of Israel. The first he mentions concerns land ownership. When Palestinians were dispossessed during and after 1948, much of the land taken went to the Jewish National Fund. The JNF charter stipulates that it can only lease or sell land to Jews. Palestinians are not allowed to lease/buy land, much like the restrictive covenants of the pre-civil rights America that forbade whites to sell real estate to blacks. Furthermore, rabbis who are state employees have publicly called on Jews not to rent to Arabs, and in the length of Israel’s history it has not built a single establishment of any kind for so-called "Israeli Arabs".

The second disability the Israeli legal system places on Arab citizens is that of marriage inequality in Israel. There is no civil marriage in Israel. All marriages must be contracted under Jewish establishment, or they are not recognized under Israeli law. In 2003 a law was passed making it illegal for an Israeli to marry a Palestinian (or by extension in 2012, any other Arab). This almost exactly parallels the anti-miscegenation laws of the pre-civil rights United States, and of apartheid South Africa. He quotes Israeli supreme court justice Asher Grunis:

"Human rights are not a prescription for national suicide. The right to a family life does not have to be realized within the borders of Israel."

and compares Grunis to David Millan of South Africa in 1953:

"Equality must inevitably mean to the white man nothing less than national suicide."

The two state solution Abunimah characterizes as an effort to conceal racism and legitimize it. Many supporters have been comfortable about ending the occupation but cannot accept Palestinian rights, including especially the right of return. Peter Beinart is an allegedly liberal Zionist and supporter of the two state solution.

I am not asking Israel to be utopian. I am not asking it to allow Palestinians who were forced or or fled in 1948 to return to their homes. I am not even asking it to allow full equal citizenship to Arab Israeli since that would require Israel to no longer be a Jewish state. I am actually pretty willing to compromise my liberalism for Israel’s security and for its status as a Jewish state.

Thus Abunimah concludes Beinart embraces a Palestinian state not out of any concern for Palestinian rights or justice, but solely to legitimize the removal of Palestinians.

This is a video Tinmore posted a few weeks back that covers this subject:

 

[eagle1462010]

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

The Religion of Peace and a whole stack of dead bodies.

Israel has withdrawn from areas only to be attacked from the same locations since they became a nation. The Arab League and their terror groups have vowed to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

And we want to talk about how Democracy sucks in Israel?

 

[Daniyel]

DON'T BURY IT, RESPOND TO IT!

If you think is a lie, come up with quote from the Israeli supreme court to prove your point.

Daniyel - So glad you missed me. I occasionally have other fish to fry.

Zionists state that Israel is a democracy because Israeli Arabs have the vote. Here's what is inaccurate about Israel's self-characterization as a "democracy."

In Israel civil rights are not based on citizenship, and citizenship confers no rights on Arabs. Ali Abunimah describes Israel as the only country that does not recognize its own nationality. He points out that in Israel’s population registry, the ethnicity of all citizens (Jewish, Arab, Druze, etc.) is recorded. Some Jewish Israelis have since 1970 begun asking to have their denotation as “Jewish” replaced by a designation as “Israeli.” In September of 2013 the Israeli supreme court ruled that

"There is no such thing as an Israeli nationality separate from the Jewish people. To recognize such a thing would jeopardize the Jewish and democratic character of the state.”

In other words, if rights began to be conferred based on citizenship rather than membership in an ethnic group, either Israel’s Jewishness or its democracy would have to be abrogated.

Abunimah goes on to identify other serious restrictions on the rights of Palestinian citizens of Israel. The first he mentions concerns land ownership. When Palestinians were dispossessed during and after 1948, much of the land taken went to the Jewish National Fund. The JNF charter stipulates that it can only lease or sell land to Jews. Palestinians are not allowed to lease/buy land, much like the restrictive covenants of the pre-civil rights America that forbade whites to sell real estate to blacks. Furthermore, rabbis who are state employees have publicly called on Jews not to rent to Arabs, and in the length of Israel’s history it has not built a single establishment of any kind for so-called "Israeli Arabs".

The second disability the Israeli legal system places on Arab citizens is that of marriage inequality in Israel. There is no civil marriage in Israel. All marriages must be contracted under Jewish establishment, or they are not recognized under Israeli law. In 2003 a law was passed making it illegal for an Israeli to marry a Palestinian (or by extension in 2012, any other Arab). This almost exactly parallels the anti-miscegenation laws of the pre-civil rights United States, and of apartheid South Africa. He quotes Israeli supreme court justice Asher Grunis:

and compares Grunis to David Millan of South Africa in 1953:

The two state solution Abunimah characterizes as an effort to conceal racism and legitimize it. Many supporters have been comfortable about ending the occupation but cannot accept Palestinian rights, including especially the right of return. Peter Beinart is an allegedly liberal Zionist and supporter of the two state solution.

I am not asking Israel to be utopian. I am not asking it to allow Palestinians who were forced or or fled in 1948 to return to their homes. I am not even asking it to allow full equal citizenship to Arab Israeli since that would require Israel to no longer be a Jewish state. I am actually pretty willing to compromise my liberalism for Israel’s security and for its status as a Jewish state.

Thus Abunimah concludes Beinart embraces a Palestinian state not out of any concern for Palestinian rights or justice, but solely to legitimize the removal of Palestinians.

This is a video Tinmore posted a few weeks back that covers this subject:

I got a very bad opinion about the supreme court, so I'm subjective and I'm pretty much wanna go to sleep, but I will review it later if you are willing to send me the whole information later because I might forget.
But let me ask you, as a women do you see Gaza give you full freedom and civil rights as it given to Moona in Israel? Have you ever heard about 1 single Jew in Gaza enjoying ANY kind of civil rights? or even in Israel, does Hamas EVER tried negotiating or considering our Human Rights?
Try to answer all of those or at least one, I don't think its possible..just admit for once you are wrong, and no cause justifies use of violence, specially not Hamas but this is a far more progressive discussion. [MENTION=49350]amity1844[/MENTION]

 

[amity1844]

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

The Religion of Peace and a whole stack of dead bodies.

Israel has withdrawn from areas only to be attacked from the same locations since they became a nation. The Arab League and their terror groups have vowed to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

And we want to talk about how Democracy sucks in Israel?

That is a hate site. As we have already seen any number of times on this forum, those sites are NOT to be trusted. They fake photos, they fake text, right and left with no regard for truth.

So please try to use reputable sources for info. Better still, see if you can find an Arab source threatening to "wipe Israel off the face of the earth." Its just like writing your first research paper in 7th grade: Come up with a quality source for each statement.

And YES democracy sucks in Israel.