Jewish Democracy?

[flacaltenn]

Back to the OP..

Why a JEWISH democracy?? Because the modern era persecution of Jews was never a RELIGIOUS issue..
Did Hitler have an issue with Abraham, Isaac, or the Old Testament or the Ten Commandments? Did the RELIGIOUS practice of Judaism play a major role in his ARYAN evaluations? Nope.. It was a blood-line ethnicity issue. Same with the Pograms in Russia. Whether you were religious or not was never a issue to the persecutors. STILL isn't -- is it?? Not since the Inquisition or the Crusades has it really been an issue of religious practice.

Israel is not a sanctuary for Judaism. It's a ethnic homeland for Jews. Because being dispersed and depending on the best intentions of other democracies wasn't a good plan.

And a democracy of some sort is the fitting and best structure to make that governance is as tolerant and transparent as possible..

 

[irosie91]

Its not a race. Genetically there is very little distinction between Jews (modern or ancient) and others from the same region of the middle east.

And it is not a single culture, either. It is many cultures, many of which have very little in common.

But be that as it may, what about the original question of democracy? Let's ask it this way, when Arabs become a majority in Israel within a couple of decades, will its alleged democracy still enable majority rule with protection for minorities?

You are making a prediction regarding demographics----demographics is
a BIOLOGICAL SYSTEM-----predictions on biological systems never pan
out. The predictions by TIP TOP geneticists and molecular biologists
from ---Harvard---regarding the HUMAN IMMUNODEFICIENCY VIRUS
(HIV) based on
its pattern of spread -----made in 1981---when the virus was isolated
and identified was------'by the year 2000 cities like New York City --
would be depopulated' The prediction did not pan out Way back
in the 1960s based on world population growth----statisticians and
demographers were predicting that by the 21 century----each person
would have barely one square foot of space upon which to stand.

you have no way of knowing just what will be the demographics of Israel
in 20 years. When I was young----a young Pakistani surgeon told me
with absolute confidence-----"in two years Israel will be gone" I asked
"why" and he answered "because the Sephardi jews and the Ashkenazi
jews are killing each other off" that was about 45 years ago. Try not
to be so impressed with the propaganda your handlers feed you. He
thought he had real stats too and logical predictions

 

[Jiveman]

Joe, i'm finding it difficult to see what "second class citizens" your referring to...

Arabs in israel have the right to elect and be elected to any political office.

As was pointed out by Daniyel, israli-arabs serve in the military, the knesset, the legal system (including the supreme court) and every aspect of politcal and social life in Israel.

Is there complete equality between jews and arabs, no. but neither is there between jews themselves. there are big differences between orthodox and secular jews. sephardic and ashkenazi jews. Jews from tel-aviv and from beer-sheva. and so on.

Naturally, inequality is neither ideal nor wished for, but complete equality is not the what makes a democracy. In the US, Germany, France and many other ethnically diverse countries there are staggering differences between different sections of the populations. that does not make them any less democratic.

And as for the argument of "jewish and democratic", yes it is problematic. but Israel has contantly tried to find the balance between the two. has it ALWAYS been succesful. no. as with any political issue, you have trial and error, successes and failiures. none of which make israel any less democratic.

 

[irosie91]

Joe, i'm finding it difficult to see what "second class citizens" your referring to...

Arabs in israel have the right to elect and be elected to any political office.

As was pointed out by Daniyel, israli-arabs serve in the military, the knesset, the legal system (including the supreme court) and every aspect of politcal and social life in Israel.

Is there complete equality between jews and arabs, no. but neither is there between jews themselves. there are big differences between orthodox and secular jews. sephardic and ashkenazi jews. Jews from tel-aviv and from beer-sheva. and so on.

Naturally, inequality is neither ideal nor wished for, but complete equality is not the what makes a democracy. In the US, Germany, France and many other ethnically diverse countries there are staggering differences between different sections of the populations. that does not make them any less democratic.

And as for the argument of "jewish and democratic", yes it is problematic. but Israel has contantly tried to find the balance between the two. has it ALWAYS been succesful. no. as with any political issue, you have trial and error, successes and failiures. none of which make israel any less democratic.

as you point out---sorta----"EQUALITY" is an elusive goal in ALL SOCIETIES ----and so
far as I know----not attained in any. The fact that DA JOOOOS have not accomplished
such a state------is food for islamo Nazi propaganda-----because islamo Nazis are so hungry
that they are willing to INGEST anything

 

[amity1844]

Joe, i'm finding it difficult to see what "second class citizens" your referring to...

Arabs in israel have the right to elect and be elected to any political office.

And what element of this are you missing? Arab citizenship in Israel does not confer any political or civil rights/liberties. Lookie here, jiveman, read articles and please answer.

Israel's Palestinians Confined to a 'Citizenship' that is Meaningless
Uzzi Ornan displays his ID card - which unlike a passport does not have any mention of an Israeli nationality.

The Israel's Supreme Court recently rejected a claim that there was an Israeli nationality. The claim was brought by Uzzi Ornan, a 90-year-old linguistics processor at the Technion, Tel Aviv. An Israeli nationality would undermine the 'Jewish' nature of the Israeli state.

The judgment reinforces the decision in a similar case was brought by George Tamarin in 1970. In the Tamarin case the Supreme Court, presided over by Justice Agranat held that ‘the desire to create an Israeli nation separate from the Jewish nation is not a legitimate aspiration.’

See this blog (can it be? yet another anti-Zionist Jew...):
Tony Greenstein's Blog: Israel's Supreme Court Confirms That There is no Israeli Nationality

Here's another good article:
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis: Reading the Supreme Court?s decisions on Israeli nationality | Mondoweiss

and one from the Israeli press:
Jerusalem - Court Rejects Citizens' Request To Change Nationality From 'Jewish' To 'Israeli'

 

[amity1844]

Back to the OP..

Why a JEWISH democracy?? Because the modern era persecution of Jews was never a RELIGIOUS issue..
Did Hitler have an issue with Abraham, Isaac, or the Old Testament or the Ten Commandments? Did the RELIGIOUS practice of Judaism play a major role in his ARYAN evaluations? Nope.. It was a blood-line ethnicity issue. Same with the Pograms in Russia. Whether you were religious or not was never a issue to the persecutors. STILL isn't -- is it?? Not since the Inquisition or the Crusades has it really been an issue of religious practice.

Israel is not a sanctuary for Judaism. It's a ethnic homeland for Jews. Because being dispersed and depending on the best intentions of other democracies wasn't a good plan.

And a democracy of some sort is the fitting and best structure to make that governance is as tolerant and transparent as possible..

I will agree with your assertion that Israel is an ethnocracy rather than a theocracy, that part is certainly clear. And I do understand about Hitler, truly.

But placing Jews in harm's way in the middle east is the solution? the only way for your purported "democracy" (which you seem to admit is limited to "Jews only") to survive is to be the biggest and baddest assholes in the region, truly on a par with Hitler.

Would assimilation be better/worse? Judaism and Jews seems to thrive best and be headed in the most admirable direction in New York, not in Tel Aviv.

 

[Daniyel]

Amity, why can't I be a citizen of French for example? I'm not french.

 

[irosie91]

Back to the OP..

Why a JEWISH democracy?? Because the modern era persecution of Jews was never a RELIGIOUS issue..
Did Hitler have an issue with Abraham, Isaac, or the Old Testament or the Ten Commandments? Did the RELIGIOUS practice of Judaism play a major role in his ARYAN evaluations? Nope.. It was a blood-line ethnicity issue. Same with the Pograms in Russia. Whether you were religious or not was never a issue to the persecutors. STILL isn't -- is it?? Not since the Inquisition or the Crusades has it really been an issue of religious practice.

Israel is not a sanctuary for Judaism. It's a ethnic homeland for Jews. Because being dispersed and depending on the best intentions of other democracies wasn't a good plan.

And a democracy of some sort is the fitting and best structure to make that governance is as tolerant and transparent as possible..

I will agree with your assertion that Israel is an ethnocracy rather than a theocracy, that part is certainly clear. And I do understand about Hitler, truly.

But placing Jews in harm's way in the middle east is the solution? the only way for your purported "democracy" (which you seem to admit is limited to "Jews only") to survive is to be the biggest and baddest assholes in the region, truly on a par with Hitler.

Would assimilation be better/worse? Judaism and Jews seems to thrive best and be headed in the most admirable direction in New York, not in Tel Aviv.

LOL gee----I happen to know a Saudi doctor who is doing a lot better
in New York---in a jewish university and hospital than he would be doing
in Saudi Arabia. Anmity----do yourself a favor and stop parroting the
islamo Nazi partyline. You guys have been "offering" that which is
"best for you" (ie,,,,, we will not murder you if you accept our terms of
enslavement to our filth) ----since OMAR wrote up his PACT

---well I also know lots of Egyptians and Syrians and Lebanese persons---
doing a lot better in the USA than they would be doing back "home"----so
lets dissolve those countries too

 

[Lipush]

Have you heard that term... Jewish Democracy?

Does a democracy with second class citizenship for ANY definable segment of a population make sense?

Is it even possible?​

How can a state of more than one religion call itself a democracy if a single one owns the government?



My humble opinion: The Israelis are digging in deep on the wrong side of history. Just as wrong as those who would fight to impose Sharia Law on a state.

You can either have something akin to Jewish Sharia Law, or you can have a democracy.

"Jewish Democracy" is a joke. ​

`​

Now, can you be more specific? I can also talk big.... but filling a full paradraph with nothing real to say.... Never tried that myself, I must tell you.

 

[Lipush]

Is 'Religious Democracy' possible?

Would Israel fare better just admitting it's a theocracy and ACT like a Jewish state?

I mean, the bar being set by modern Islamic states isn't too high...

Israel is not ruled by religious law.

In the government there are both religious and secular people, of different ethnic groups.

 

[amity1844]

Amity, why can't I be a citizen of French for example? I'm not french.

You can be French with my blessing, Daniyel.

 

[Lipush]

You are deluded since in many Israeli Arabs like the life in Israel, many serve in the IDF, and many of them also vote to Shas, Bait Yehudi, Likod, and other parties which are definitely not Arab or Muslim.
Majority of the population usually get the more influence in democracy and so it is in Israel, although we have many laws to assist minorities such choosing Women or Minority for a job rather than Majority along with many others.

This is totally inapropos. JEWS AND NON-JEWS DO NOT HAVE EQUAL LEGAL STATUS IN ISRAEL.

So, Daniyel, I've got to ask, what do you believe will happen when Arabs become the majority again in a few decades? Golda Meir used to say she couldn't sleep at night for worrying about how many Palestinian babies were being born.

The Arabs will not be a majority in Israel, because their birth rates reduce while Jewish birth rates are on the rise.

But that besides the point.

You say - JEWS AND NON-JEWS DO NOT HAVE EQUAL LEGAL STATUS IN ISRAEL.


This statement is false.

Unless you prove it, you should take it back

 

[Indeependent]

Back to the OP..

Why a JEWISH democracy?? Because the modern era persecution of Jews was never a RELIGIOUS issue..
Did Hitler have an issue with Abraham, Isaac, or the Old Testament or the Ten Commandments? Did the RELIGIOUS practice of Judaism play a major role in his ARYAN evaluations? Nope.. It was a blood-line ethnicity issue. Same with the Pograms in Russia. Whether you were religious or not was never a issue to the persecutors. STILL isn't -- is it?? Not since the Inquisition or the Crusades has it really been an issue of religious practice.

Israel is not a sanctuary for Judaism. It's a ethnic homeland for Jews. Because being dispersed and depending on the best intentions of other democracies wasn't a good plan.

And a democracy of some sort is the fitting and best structure to make that governance is as tolerant and transparent as possible..

I will agree with your assertion that Israel is an ethnocracy rather than a theocracy, that part is certainly clear. And I do understand about Hitler, truly.

But placing Jews in harm's way in the middle east is the solution? the only way for your purported "democracy" (which you seem to admit is limited to "Jews only") to survive is to be the biggest and baddest assholes in the region, truly on a par with Hitler.

Would assimilation be better/worse? Judaism and Jews seems to thrive best and be headed in the most admirable direction in New York, not in Tel Aviv.

And why are 1.2 billion Muslims in harm's way of each other?
Just being consistent with YOUR logic.

 

[flacaltenn]

Amity, why can't I be a citizen of French for example? I'm not french.

You can be French with my blessing, Daniyel.

Wow.. Amity is granting VISAs.. Can you get me a Visa and citizenship in Syria? I hear they need Jewish scientists and engineers.. Also would love to start a bagel shop and a synagogue there..

I personally think Israel ought to make the West Bank into a territority and grant conditional rights to WORK in Israel or access services in Israel.. Build the West Bank economy in cooperation with the local govt. there. Even to the point of EVENTUALLY OFFERING statehood under Israel if that's what the inhabitants desire. But until folks work, and play and cooperate together for a couple generations or so --- granting full incorporation into Israel is not possible.. Better solution WOULD have been to have JORDAN step up to representation.

But that ship sailed when they got tossed out of Jordan..

 

[aris2chat]

Back to the OP..

Why a JEWISH democracy?? Because the modern era persecution of Jews was never a RELIGIOUS issue..
Did Hitler have an issue with Abraham, Isaac, or the Old Testament or the Ten Commandments? Did the RELIGIOUS practice of Judaism play a major role in his ARYAN evaluations? Nope.. It was a blood-line ethnicity issue. Same with the Pograms in Russia. Whether you were religious or not was never a issue to the persecutors. STILL isn't -- is it?? Not since the Inquisition or the Crusades has it really been an issue of religious practice.

Israel is not a sanctuary for Judaism. It's a ethnic homeland for Jews. Because being dispersed and depending on the best intentions of other democracies wasn't a good plan.

And a democracy of some sort is the fitting and best structure to make that governance is as tolerant and transparent as possible..

I will agree with your assertion that Israel is an ethnocracy rather than a theocracy, that part is certainly clear. And I do understand about Hitler, truly.

But placing Jews in harm's way in the middle east is the solution? the only way for your purported "democracy" (which you seem to admit is limited to "Jews only") to survive is to be the biggest and baddest assholes in the region, truly on a par with Hitler.

Would assimilation be better/worse? Judaism and Jews seems to thrive best and be headed in the most admirable direction in New York, not in Tel Aviv.

LOL gee----I happen to know a Saudi doctor who is doing a lot better
in New York---in a jewish university and hospital than he would be doing
in Saudi Arabia. Anmity----do yourself a favor and stop parroting the
islamo Nazi partyline. You guys have been "offering" that which is
"best for you" (ie,,,,, we will not murder you if you accept our terms of
enslavement to our filth) ----since OMAR wrote up his PACT

---well I also know lots of Egyptians and Syrians and Lebanese persons---
doing a lot better in the USA than they would be doing back "home"----so
lets dissolve those countries too

F L A M E : The Arabs of Israel: Are they a "persecuted minority?"

perhaps this will be of help

 

[irosie91]

uhm someone responded to someone>>>

Wow.. Amity is granting VISAs.. Can you get me a Visa and citizenship in Syria? I hear they need Jewish scientists and engineers.. Also would love to start a bagel shop and a synagogue there..


can Aemnity get me a visa to mecca? uhm------ I have always wanted to see that
MAGICAL BLACK ROCK

 

[amity1844]

You say - JEWS AND NON-JEWS DO NOT HAVE EQUAL LEGAL STATUS IN ISRAEL.


This statement is false.

Unless you prove it, you should take it back

I have proven it. Read the sources:

Israel's Palestinians Confined to a 'Citizenship' that is Meaningless
Uzzi Ornan displays his ID card - which unlike a passport does not have any mention of an Israeli nationality.

The Israel's Supreme Court recently rejected a claim that there was an Israeli nationality. The claim was brought by Uzzi Ornan, a 90-year-old linguistics processor at the Technion, Tel Aviv. An Israeli nationality would undermine the 'Jewish' nature of the Israeli state.

The judgment reinforces the decision in a similar case was brought by George Tamarin in 1970. In the Tamarin case the Supreme Court, presided over by Justice Agranat held that ‘the desire to create an Israeli nation separate from the Jewish nation is not a legitimate aspiration.’

See this blog (can it be? yet another anti-Zionist Jew...):
Tony Greenstein's Blog: Israel's Supreme Court Confirms That There is no Israeli Nationality

Here's another good article:
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis: Reading the Supreme Court?s decisions on Israeli nationality | Mondoweiss

and one from the Israeli press:
Jerusalem - Court Rejects Citizens' Request To Change Nationality From 'Jewish' To 'Israeli'

 

[Daniyel]

You say - JEWS AND NON-JEWS DO NOT HAVE EQUAL LEGAL STATUS IN ISRAEL.


This statement is false.

Unless you prove it, you should take it back

I have proven it. Read the sources:

Israel's Palestinians Confined to a 'Citizenship' that is Meaningless
Uzzi Ornan displays his ID card - which unlike a passport does not have any mention of an Israeli nationality.

The Israel's Supreme Court recently rejected a claim that there was an Israeli nationality. The claim was brought by Uzzi Ornan, a 90-year-old linguistics processor at the Technion, Tel Aviv. An Israeli nationality would undermine the 'Jewish' nature of the Israeli state.

The judgment reinforces the decision in a similar case was brought by George Tamarin in 1970. In the Tamarin case the Supreme Court, presided over by Justice Agranat held that ‘the desire to create an Israeli nation separate from the Jewish nation is not a legitimate aspiration.’

See this blog (can it be? yet another anti-Zionist Jew...):
Tony Greenstein's Blog: Israel's Supreme Court Confirms That There is no Israeli Nationality

Here's another good article:
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis
Discrimination is legal, there are no Israelis: Reading the Supreme Court?s decisions on Israeli nationality | Mondoweiss

and one from the Israeli press:
Jerusalem - Court Rejects Citizens' Request To Change Nationality From 'Jewish' To 'Israeli'

The supreme court you also supported before made his call so what?
This is just a very poor attempt to change the nature of Israel in order to legalize Palestinians, not gonna work.

 

[Lipush]

I heard about this. I don't see how is that relevant?

You cannot change your nationality from Jew to Israeli, because the starting point, is that you're israeli if you have a blue ID.

If you're not, then your a resident or civilian of any other state. The question of whatever you prefer to not be considered Jewish is not up to the Israeli court to decide, and not even a religious court.

If you're born to a Jewish mother, you're a Jew. If you're with a blue ID, you're Israeli, with no connection to the nationality.

So I really don't get it.

 

[Jiveman]

Joe, i'm finding it difficult to see what "second class citizens" your referring to...

Arabs in israel have the right to elect and be elected to any political office.

And what element of this are you missing? Arab citizenship in Israel does not confer any political or civil rights/liberties. Lookie here, jiveman, read articles and please answer.

Israel's Palestinians Confined to a 'Citizenship' that is Meaningless
Uzzi Ornan displays his ID card - which unlike a passport does not have any mention of an Israeli nationality.

The Israel's Supreme Court recently rejected a claim that there was an Israeli nationality. The claim was brought by Uzzi Ornan, a 90-year-old linguistics processor at the Technion, Tel Aviv. An Israeli nationality would undermine the 'Jewish' nature of the Israeli state.

The judgment reinforces the decision in a similar case was brought by George Tamarin in 1970. In the Tamarin case the Supreme Court, presided over by Justice Agranat held that ‘the desire to create an Israeli nation separate from the Jewish nation is not a legitimate aspiration.’

You MUST be joking....

Is the right to be elected to israel's parliament - as arab israelis have done in EVERY knesset since 1948 - meaningles?

Is the right to be aprt of the ruling coalitions - as arab-israeli parties have done in 17 out of 34 coalitions so far - meaningles?

As for the Israeli\Jewish nationality question - yes, i too think israeli should be a valid. But i fail to see how the writing Jewish or Arab in the ID, as problematic as it is - deprives the owner of the ID of any rights. The fact is that Those that have Jewish written on their ID and those who have Arab written on it, and those who have "No Nationality" written on it (as a recent court ruling allowed) - they have the same rights under the law.

PS
sorry for removing your links, site wont let me post links until i reach 15 posts (which im pretty sure i already did but whatever...:\)