Jesus warns last days believers. Christians under attack worldwide!

[The Irish Ram]

be careful, believers, be very careful

even the elect will be deceived in the last days

be very sure that you are following the real Jesus in your life, instead of deceiving yourself for personal reasons

Christians are NOT the elect. Christians are sinners who can't obey the commandments of God.

The elect are the saints that obey ALL God's commandments and are used for His purpose to reveal His infinite plan for ALL His creation. Many of the old testament prophecies are about the saints coming to testify to His laws.

Ephesians 1
1: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
9: For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ

Christ is a symbolic name like the Kingdom of God, Word of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Zion, Jacob, Holy Spirit, Son of God, Spirit of God, Voice of the Lord, which are describing the invisible creation of God where we exist within His mind.

We saints have the mind of Christ to speak from.

1 Corinthians 2
10: God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11: For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
13: And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
14: The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
15: The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
16: "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

The word is used 24 times in the NT, and describes different things, from Jews, to believers, and even angels.

If Christians are raptured and not here to be deceived, then the elect would refer to the Jews who we know will be deceived by being lulled into a false peace treaty.
And yet there is this:
What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did (Romans 11:7).

 

[THE LIGHT]

the Rapture is a recent (last two hundred years) invention associated with British neo-evangelical preachers

it did not exist in any writings from the days of Jesus until the Brits apparently smoked too much ganj and experienced some amazing stoner time

Not so Jake. Not only is the rapture a Biblical concept, it was mentioned by those such as Irenaeus (between 130 AD and 202 AD) who was a disciple of Polycarp who was the Apostle John's disciple.

Also, Ephraim the Syrian (306-373AD) mentions the concept of the rapture in "On the Last Times 2" where he says: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"

 

[BluePhantom]

Boy oh boy. Here we go again. let's break this down part by part.

Jesus warns last days believers. Christians under attack worldwide!
An hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. 3 These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. 4 But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. john 16:2-4

Has nothing to do with "The Rapture" and Christians have been under attack (and attacking others) since the moment Jesus rose.

"BELIEVERS=preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.2 TIMOYHY 4:2-4 "

2 Timothy is almost certainly pseudepigraphic (i.e. "forgeries").

"For the other four letters, about 80% of scholars think they were not written by Paul himself, but by one of his followers after his death...1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus were most likely written late in the first century by some member(s) of the “Pauline School” who wanted to adapt his teachings to changing circumstances." (1)

"The three Pastoral Letters, along with three other Deutero-Pauline epistles (Col, Eph, 2 Thess), are attributed to the apostle Paul, but were almost certainly not written by Paul himself. Rather, they are probably pseudepigraphic (i.e., written in Paul's name by one or more of his followers after his death)." (2)

"German scholars surfaced questions about the authorship of three letters, known as the Pastoral Epistles,namely 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus...Subsequent research conducted in the last century led about 80 to 90 per cent of New Testament scholars to conclude that these three letters were pseudepigraphic and written after Paul‘s lifetime— some 80 to 100 years after his death."(3)

Besides it has nothing to do with "The Rapture" either"

YES!!! '' THE CATCHING UP"" IS THE RAPTURE!!! For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be ""CAUGHT UP"" (RAPTURED) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 THESSALIOANS 4:14-18

Oh finally you quote something that most scholars think is actually authentic and written by an Apostle. Took you long enough. Problem is that's not at all what Paul is discussing. A comprehensive discussion of 1 Thessalonians (note the spelling there) is a thread unto itself but let me just give you the background.

Paul is writing to the church he founded at Thessaloniki to discuss some problems that have come to his attention. Exactly what those problems are we don't know as we don't have any correspondence from the other side. This is rule with Paul's letters and it makes Paul somewhat frustrating because it's a lot like listening to one side of a telephone conversation. You KIND OF know what is being discussed but not completely because you lack the context from hearing what the other person on the other end of the call is saying.

Regardless, these were converted pagans and gentiles who really had little more than the most basic understanding of what Paul was teaching. After he left there was a lot of confusion and Paul wrote to clarify a few things (in his typical sarcastic, and annoyed tone).

What Paul is referring to in 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 - 18 is that there was widespread fear that those who died before the second coming of Jesus will not see heaven. Paul writes essentially: don't worry, they will be taken into heaven first. The problem is that Paul predicts (as he does in many of his other letters) that it will happen during their lifetime.

He writes in 1 Thessalonians

"15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Paul's use of Greek is specific. He writes "...we who are still alive..." twice. Not "...those who are still alive...". You may grasp for a desperate straw and say well such tenses were not used in Greek. Well actually, yes they were. Paul is specific. He is telling his followers that this will happen in his lifetime...THEIR lifetime....that he will be alive when it happens.

It's important to note, that obviously Paul was wrong. In fact most scholars see the exact section you quote as one of Paul's most embarrassing predictions. Paul was quite clear....clear enough that he had to write back to the Thessalonians in 2 Thessalonians and attempt to clarify because everyone had stopped working as a result of his first letter and he had to tell them (paraphrasing)...in our lifetime yes but not so soon that we can stop contributing to our own survival (as a side note most scholars accept 2 Thessalonians as pseudepigraphic - I myself am somewhat split on the question). Indeed many scholars will argue that 1 Thessalonians 5 was written well afterwards (as the style of Greek used does not match the rest of the letter) and attempts to explain why it was that the second coming did not happen during Paul's lifetime as he predicted there and in several other letters.

Once again by your own argument, you demonstrate your total lack of understanding.

Now let me beat you to it.....Tricks of Satan!! You are an atheist who is going to burn in the eternal flames of hell!

 

[BluePhantom]

No. It's to deny a false interpretation of God's Word.

Can't make you believe.

I prefer to believe the truth when it's known. And where it's not I prefer to look for it.

Don't you know you are just supposed to take what a preacher says and accept it as the unerring word of the Almighty Lord and base your entire life around it (taking great care to condemn everyone else in the process for not being as holy as you)?

Welcome to the ranks of "Satan's minions" as GISMYS, Chuckt, et. al. would insist. Those guys are the exact reason why in the Middle Ages it was a crime punishable by death to be able to read Latin if you were not in the church or nobility. If you can't read Latin, you can't read the Bible and religion loves nothing more than fanatical ignorance.

 

[BluePhantom]

the Rapture is a recent (last two hundred years) invention associated with British neo-evangelical preachers

it did not exist in any writings from the days of Jesus until the Brits apparently smoked too much ganj and experienced some amazing stoner time

Not so Jake. Not only is the rapture a Biblical concept, it was mentioned by those such as Irenaeus (between 130 AD and 202 AD) who was a disciple of Polycarp who was the Apostle John's disciple.

Also, Ephraim the Syrian (306-373AD) mentions the concept of the rapture in "On the Last Times 2" where he says: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"

Well but that's not a terribly convincing argument is it...I mean in regards to whether the Bible talks about it or not? Irenaeus, for example, got several things wrong. For example, his interpretation of the "Anti-Christ" in The Apocalypse had already evolved according to popular doctrine within decades after John of Patmos wrote it. Ephraim the Syrian was several hundred years after the Biblical texts were first written.

I agree with you that Jake's assertion that the concept of the Rapture is more modern is probably not the case (no disrespect intended to Jake) but I find little to no actual Biblical evidence of a Rapture described in the New Testament, and especially in any source that scholarship deems authentic.

 

[GISMYS]

the Rapture is a recent (last two hundred years) invention associated with British neo-evangelical preachers

it did not exist in any writings from the days of Jesus until the Brits apparently smoked too much ganj and experienced some amazing stoner time

Not so Jake. Not only is the rapture a Biblical concept, it was mentioned by those such as Irenaeus (between 130 AD and 202 AD) who was a disciple of Polycarp who was the Apostle John's disciple.

Also, Ephraim the Syrian (306-373AD) mentions the concept of the rapture in "On the Last Times 2" where he says: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"

Well but that's not a terribly convincing argument is it...I mean in regards to whether the Bible talks about it or not? Irenaeus, for example, got several things wrong. For example, his interpretation of the "Anti-Christ" in The Apocalypse had already evolved according to popular doctrine within decades after John of Patmos wrote it. Ephraim the Syrian was several hundred years after the Biblical texts were first written.

I agree with you that Jake's assertion that the concept of the Rapture is more modern is probably not the case (no disrespect intended to Jake) but I find little to no actual Biblical evidence of a Rapture described in the New Testament, and especially in any source that scholarship deems authentic.

YES!!! YOU WON'T FIND THE CATCHING UP(RAPTURE ) UNLESS YOU READ AND BELIEVE THE BIBLE!!! ===== For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be """caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 THESSALIOANS 4:14-18==THE CATCHING UP """IS""" THE RAPTURE!!!

 

[BluePhantom]

Not so Jake. Not only is the rapture a Biblical concept, it was mentioned by those such as Irenaeus (between 130 AD and 202 AD) who was a disciple of Polycarp who was the Apostle John's disciple.

Also, Ephraim the Syrian (306-373AD) mentions the concept of the rapture in "On the Last Times 2" where he says: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"

Well but that's not a terribly convincing argument is it...I mean in regards to whether the Bible talks about it or not? Irenaeus, for example, got several things wrong. For example, his interpretation of the "Anti-Christ" in The Apocalypse had already evolved according to popular doctrine within decades after John of Patmos wrote it. Ephraim the Syrian was several hundred years after the Biblical texts were first written.

I agree with you that Jake's assertion that the concept of the Rapture is more modern is probably not the case (no disrespect intended to Jake) but I find little to no actual Biblical evidence of a Rapture described in the New Testament, and especially in any source that scholarship deems authentic.

YES!!! YOU WON'T FIND THE CATCHING UP(RAPTURE ) UNLESS YOU READ AND BELIEVE THE BIBLE!!! ===== For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be """caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 THESSALIOANS 4:14-18==THE CATCHING UP """IS""" THE RAPTURE!!!

You are a real piece of work. So I post below explaining 1 Thessalonians 4, pointing out your errors, pointing out how frankly embarrassing it is, and respond by re-quoting 1 Thessalonians 4.

This is like a college professor debating a first grader.

 

[GISMYS]

Well but that's not a terribly convincing argument is it...I mean in regards to whether the Bible talks about it or not? Irenaeus, for example, got several things wrong. For example, his interpretation of the "Anti-Christ" in The Apocalypse had already evolved according to popular doctrine within decades after John of Patmos wrote it. Ephraim the Syrian was several hundred years after the Biblical texts were first written.

I agree with you that Jake's assertion that the concept of the Rapture is more modern is probably not the case (no disrespect intended to Jake) but I find little to no actual Biblical evidence of a Rapture described in the New Testament, and especially in any source that scholarship deems authentic.

YES!!! YOU WON'T FIND THE CATCHING UP(RAPTURE ) UNLESS YOU READ AND BELIEVE THE BIBLE!!! ===== For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be """caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 THESSALIOANS 4:14-18==THE CATCHING UP """IS""" THE RAPTURE!!!

You are a real piece of work. So I post below explaining 1 Thessalonians 4, pointing out your errors, pointing out how frankly embarrassing it is, and respond by re-quoting 1 Thessalonians 4.

This is like a college professor debating a first grader.

YOU WILL BELIEVE GOD'S WORD OR SATAN'S LIES!!! YOUR CHOICE==== For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be """caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 THESSALIOANS 4:14-18==THE CATCHING UP """IS""" THE RAPTURE!!!

 

[The Irish Ram]

Can't make you believe.

I prefer to believe the truth when it's known. And where it's not I prefer to look for it.

Don't you know you are just supposed to take what a preacher says and accept it as the unerring word of the Almighty Lord and base your entire life around it (taking great care to condemn everyone else in the process for not being as holy as you)?

Welcome to the ranks of "Satan's minions" as GISMYS, Chuckt, et. al. would insist. Those guys are the exact reason why in the Middle Ages it was a crime punishable by death to be able to read Latin if you were not in the church or nobility. If you can't read Latin, you can't read the Bible and religion loves nothing more than fanatical ignorance.

To the contrary. Discernment determines whether a preacher or teacher is accurate.
Like the red flags that go up when I read your posts. Your bias sends up red flags.

And contrary to what you have posted, we are not called to blindly accept what a preacher tells us but to judge righteous judgement. That does not mean to condemn the person but to evaluate what he is saying, and to look at the fruits of the person preaching.
I have yet to come across a post by any Christian here that announces that they are more or less holy or better than anyone else. As one of those Christians, I agree with Paul:

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” (1Tim 1:15)

If the Bible is as Paul said,

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
2 Timothy 3:16

and Timothy actually wrote those letters to himself, then Timothy is a liar, and so is the passage above. Thanks for your dissertation, but I'll stick with God's inspiration, instead of man's.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Well but that's not a terribly convincing argument is it...I mean in regards to whether the Bible talks about it or not? Irenaeus, for example, got several things wrong. For example, his interpretation of the "Anti-Christ" in The Apocalypse had already evolved according to popular doctrine within decades after John of Patmos wrote it. Ephraim the Syrian was several hundred years after the Biblical texts were first written.

I agree with you that Jake's assertion that the concept of the Rapture is more modern is probably not the case (no disrespect intended to Jake) but I find little to no actual Biblical evidence of a Rapture described in the New Testament, and especially in any source that scholarship deems authentic.

YES!!! YOU WON'T FIND THE CATCHING UP(RAPTURE ) UNLESS YOU READ AND BELIEVE THE BIBLE!!! ===== For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be """caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 THESSALIOANS 4:14-18==THE CATCHING UP """IS""" THE RAPTURE!!!

You are a real piece of work. So I post below explaining 1 Thessalonians 4, pointing out your errors, pointing out how frankly embarrassing it is, and respond by re-quoting 1 Thessalonians 4.

This is like a college professor debating a first grader.

And the first grader is winning. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

But seriously, what is wrong with mentioning 1 Thessalonians 4 over again if it is true? If you have the correct answer, no matter how many times someone says it isn't true, that doesn't change the validity of the answer.

 

[THE LIGHT]

the Rapture is a recent (last two hundred years) invention associated with British neo-evangelical preachers

it did not exist in any writings from the days of Jesus until the Brits apparently smoked too much ganj and experienced some amazing stoner time

Not so Jake. Not only is the rapture a Biblical concept, it was mentioned by those such as Irenaeus (between 130 AD and 202 AD) who was a disciple of Polycarp who was the Apostle John's disciple.

Also, Ephraim the Syrian (306-373AD) mentions the concept of the rapture in "On the Last Times 2" where he says: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"

Well but that's not a terribly convincing argument is it...I mean in regards to whether the Bible talks about it or not? Irenaeus, for example, got several things wrong. For example, his interpretation of the "Anti-Christ" in The Apocalypse had already evolved according to popular doctrine within decades after John of Patmos wrote it. Ephraim the Syrian was several hundred years after the Biblical texts were first written.

I agree with you that Jake's assertion that the concept of the Rapture is more modern is probably not the case (no disrespect intended to Jake) but I find little to no actual Biblical evidence of a Rapture described in the New Testament, and especially in any source that scholarship deems authentic.

You are right, it wouldn't be an overwhelmingly convincing argument if I was trying to use it to argue for the validity of the "rapture" concept, but that was not the intent of my argument. My argument was based on the refutation of an assertion that the rapture concept was made up recently.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Blue, what do you do with the whole caught up in the air, Christ is there, twinkling of a eye thing?

 

[BluePhantom]

YES!!! YOU WON'T FIND THE CATCHING UP(RAPTURE ) UNLESS YOU READ AND BELIEVE THE BIBLE!!! ===== For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be """caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 THESSALIOANS 4:14-18==THE CATCHING UP """IS""" THE RAPTURE!!!

You are a real piece of work. So I post below explaining 1 Thessalonians 4, pointing out your errors, pointing out how frankly embarrassing it is, and respond by re-quoting 1 Thessalonians 4.

This is like a college professor debating a first grader.

And the first grader is winning. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

But seriously, what is wrong with mentioning 1 Thessalonians 4 over again if it is true? If you have the correct answer, no matter how many times someone says it isn't true, that doesn't change the validity of the answer.

Well because Paul was wrong. LOL. Armageddon didn't come as Paul predicted as I demonstrated below he is misinterpreting the context of what Paul was writing about. What I would expect in return is "Ok BP...here's why I disagree with your point of view. (Insert name of respected scholar/historian/theologist) said in his book (insert name of book) that (insert summary of argument) (insert link to reference from a respected source)"

THAT'S a discussion that is constructive for both sides. But when someone says "1 Thessalonians 4!" and I say "well the problem with 1 Thessalonians 4 is (insert everything I said already)" and he responds "but...but...1 Thessalonians 4!" Well that's not a discussion. That's a guy who is so totally brainwashed about the inerrant nature of the Bible and accepts it as historical fact, that talking to him is pointless. Nothing constructive comes from it.

In The Analects Confucius wrote "To speak not to a man who is capable of understanding is to let a man go to waste. To speak to a man who is incapable of understanding is to let one's words go to waste. The Gentleman (the wise man) let's neither men nor words go to waste".

I talk to GISMYS because I find his complete inability to even entertain the notion that the truth could be anything but what traditional religion teaches and that anything else is "tricks of Satan" amusing. He entertains me...nothing more.

 

[BluePhantom]

Not so Jake. Not only is the rapture a Biblical concept, it was mentioned by those such as Irenaeus (between 130 AD and 202 AD) who was a disciple of Polycarp who was the Apostle John's disciple.

Also, Ephraim the Syrian (306-373AD) mentions the concept of the rapture in "On the Last Times 2" where he says: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"

Well but that's not a terribly convincing argument is it...I mean in regards to whether the Bible talks about it or not? Irenaeus, for example, got several things wrong. For example, his interpretation of the "Anti-Christ" in The Apocalypse had already evolved according to popular doctrine within decades after John of Patmos wrote it. Ephraim the Syrian was several hundred years after the Biblical texts were first written.

I agree with you that Jake's assertion that the concept of the Rapture is more modern is probably not the case (no disrespect intended to Jake) but I find little to no actual Biblical evidence of a Rapture described in the New Testament, and especially in any source that scholarship deems authentic.

You are right, it wouldn't be an overwhelmingly convincing argument if I was trying to use it to argue for the validity of the "rapture" concept, but that was not the intent of my argument. My argument was based on the refutation of an assertion that the rapture concept was made up recently.

My apologies. I misinterpreted your argument and I agree with you

 

[BluePhantom]

Blue, what do you do with the whole caught up in the air, Christ is there, twinkling of a eye thing?

I am not sure I am following you. Can you please be more specific in regards to what your question is?

 

[GISMYS]

NON SO BLIND AS THOSE THAT REFUSE TO SEE!! BELIEVE GOD'S WORD==
YES!!! YOU WON'T FIND THE CATCHING UP(RAPTURE ) UNLESS YOU READ AND BELIEVE THE BIBLE!!! ===== For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be """caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 THESSALIOANS 4:14-18==THE CATCHING UP """IS""" THE RAPTURE!!!

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

YES!!! YOU WON'T FIND THE CATCHING UP(RAPTURE ) UNLESS YOU READ AND BELIEVE THE BIBLE!!! ===== For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be """caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 THESSALIOANS 4:14-18==THE CATCHING UP """IS""" THE RAPTURE!!!

You are a real piece of work. So I post below explaining 1 Thessalonians 4, pointing out your errors, pointing out how frankly embarrassing it is, and respond by re-quoting 1 Thessalonians 4.

This is like a college professor debating a first grader.

And the first grader is winning. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

But seriously, what is wrong with mentioning 1 Thessalonians 4 over again if it is true? If you have the correct answer, no matter how many times someone says it isn't true, that doesn't change the validity of the answer.

Have to agree!

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

You are a real piece of work. So I post below explaining 1 Thessalonians 4, pointing out your errors, pointing out how frankly embarrassing it is, and respond by re-quoting 1 Thessalonians 4.

This is like a college professor debating a first grader.

And the first grader is winning. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

But seriously, what is wrong with mentioning 1 Thessalonians 4 over again if it is true? If you have the correct answer, no matter how many times someone says it isn't true, that doesn't change the validity of the answer.

Well because Paul was wrong. LOL. Armageddon didn't come as Paul predicted as I demonstrated below he is misinterpreting the context of what Paul was writing about. What I would expect in return is "Ok BP...here's why I disagree with your point of view. (Insert name of respected scholar/historian/theologist) said in his book (insert name of book) that (insert summary of argument) (insert link to reference from a respected source)"

THAT'S a discussion that is constructive for both sides. But when someone says "1 Thessalonians 4!" and I say "well the problem with 1 Thessalonians 4 is (insert everything I said already)" and he responds "but...but...1 Thessalonians 4!" Well that's not a discussion. That's a guy who is so totally brainwashed about the inerrant nature of the Bible and accepts it as historical fact, that talking to him is pointless. Nothing constructive comes from it.

In The Analects Confucius wrote "To speak not to a man who is capable of understanding is to let a man go to waste. To speak to a man who is incapable of understanding is to let one's words go to waste. The Gentleman (the wise man) let's neither men nor words go to waste".

I talk to GISMYS because I find his complete inability to even entertain the notion that the truth could be anything but what traditional religion teaches and that anything else is "tricks of Satan" amusing. He entertains me...nothing more.

Blue, you seem to be a well educated person, problem is, I agree with Gismys on this one.

To me, Paul is using the pronoun 'we' to represent Christians, and not talking to just those gathered there at the time.

It's amazing how Paul's letters survive the test of time, even though Paul himself was beheaded.

 

[BluePhantom]

And the first grader is winning. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

But seriously, what is wrong with mentioning 1 Thessalonians 4 over again if it is true? If you have the correct answer, no matter how many times someone says it isn't true, that doesn't change the validity of the answer.

Well because Paul was wrong. LOL. Armageddon didn't come as Paul predicted as I demonstrated below he is misinterpreting the context of what Paul was writing about. What I would expect in return is "Ok BP...here's why I disagree with your point of view. (Insert name of respected scholar/historian/theologist) said in his book (insert name of book) that (insert summary of argument) (insert link to reference from a respected source)"

THAT'S a discussion that is constructive for both sides. But when someone says "1 Thessalonians 4!" and I say "well the problem with 1 Thessalonians 4 is (insert everything I said already)" and he responds "but...but...1 Thessalonians 4!" Well that's not a discussion. That's a guy who is so totally brainwashed about the inerrant nature of the Bible and accepts it as historical fact, that talking to him is pointless. Nothing constructive comes from it.

In The Analects Confucius wrote "To speak not to a man who is capable of understanding is to let a man go to waste. To speak to a man who is incapable of understanding is to let one's words go to waste. The Gentleman (the wise man) let's neither men nor words go to waste".

I talk to GISMYS because I find his complete inability to even entertain the notion that the truth could be anything but what traditional religion teaches and that anything else is "tricks of Satan" amusing. He entertains me...nothing more.

Blue, you seem to be a well educated person, problem is, I agree with Gismys on this one.

To me, Paul is using the pronoun 'we' to represent Christians, and not talking to just those gathered there at the time.

Well...uh....it's certainly a convenient way to look at it. It's certainly an interpretation that would be comfortable for modern Christians in order to explain why Paul's prediction didn't come true. I suppose if you look at that passage in a vacuum one might be tempted to view it as such. Unfortunately, when you put it into the context of Paul's writings as a whole I don't think it holds up (and again the majority of scholars would agree with me).

Throughout his letters Paul warns of the imminent second coming. In 1 Corinthians 7 he writes essentially that people should not change their status. If you are single, stay single. If you are married, stay married, etc. He makes this argument because of the "coming or present crisis" (I write "coming or present" because the Greek there is a bit vague - most translate it as "present"). Paul talks a lot about the imminent tribulation. Well when he is talking about the "tribulation" or the "crisis" he is referring to the end. Scholarship is virtually united on that point. Paul was preparing his followers for the imminent coming of God's good kingdom.

Certainly if you wish to interpret it as you describe above, that's your prerogative. From a literary and linguistic point of view and when put in the context of Paul's letter as a whole...honestly Archer, i think it's a tough argument to make.

And unfortunately i have to go to work so I will respond to the other posts tonight.

 

[GISMYS]

Well because Paul was wrong. LOL. Armageddon didn't come as Paul predicted as I demonstrated below he is misinterpreting the context of what Paul was writing about. What I would expect in return is "Ok BP...here's why I disagree with your point of view. (Insert name of respected scholar/historian/theologist) said in his book (insert name of book) that (insert summary of argument) (insert link to reference from a respected source)"

THAT'S a discussion that is constructive for both sides. But when someone says "1 Thessalonians 4!" and I say "well the problem with 1 Thessalonians 4 is (insert everything I said already)" and he responds "but...but...1 Thessalonians 4!" Well that's not a discussion. That's a guy who is so totally brainwashed about the inerrant nature of the Bible and accepts it as historical fact, that talking to him is pointless. Nothing constructive comes from it.

In The Analects Confucius wrote "To speak not to a man who is capable of understanding is to let a man go to waste. To speak to a man who is incapable of understanding is to let one's words go to waste. The Gentleman (the wise man) let's neither men nor words go to waste".

I talk to GISMYS because I find his complete inability to even entertain the notion that the truth could be anything but what traditional religion teaches and that anything else is "tricks of Satan" amusing. He entertains me...nothing more.

Blue, you seem to be a well educated person, problem is, I agree with Gismys on this one.

To me, Paul is using the pronoun 'we' to represent Christians, and not talking to just those gathered there at the time.

Well...uh....it's certainly a convenient way to look at it. It's certainly an interpretation that would be comfortable for modern Christians in order to explain why Paul's prediction didn't come true. I suppose if you look at that passage in a vacuum one might be tempted to view it as such. Unfortunately, when you put it into the context of Paul's writings as a whole I don't think it holds up (and again the majority of scholars would agree with me).

Throughout his letters Paul warns of the imminent second coming. In 1 Corinthians 7 he writes essentially that people should not change their status. If you are single, stay single. If you are married, stay married, etc. He makes this argument because of the "coming or present crisis" (I write "coming or present" because the Greek there is a bit vague - most translate it as "present"). Paul talks a lot about the imminent tribulation. Well when he is talking about the "tribulation" or the "crisis" he is referring to the end. Scholarship is virtually united on that point. Paul was preparing his followers for the imminent coming of God's good kingdom.

Certainly if you wish to interpret it as you describe above, that's your prerogative. From a literary and linguistic point of view and when put in the context of Paul's letter as a whole...honestly Archer, i think it's a tough argument to make.

And unfortunately i have to go to work so I will respond to the other posts tonight.

YOU LACK WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING AND THEN COMPOUND YOU IGNORANCE BY SAYING THE BIBLE IS IN ERROR!!! count the cost!!