Zone1 Mary's sinlessness

[rstrats]

Telling Jesus they were out of wine at the wedding wasn’t a sin.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I've got to go with theHawk on this one.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

She was FULL of Grace, Grace is God.... God's spirit, God's will, God's protections, therefore...she was sinless, through God's grace... is how the Catholics view it....in simplistic terms....

Jesus was not yet born, and had not died for our sins yet....but she was still FULL, entirely, of God's grace....there is no sin, when you are FULL of God's grace....because He takes up, every inch of it.

What Does It Mean to be Full of Grace?

What is GRACE? Mary’s Immaculate Conception made her free from the guilt of Eve by God's grace because of what Jesus would do on the cross.

wordbytes.org

It's obviously important for you to believe Mary, out of 100 billion people, didn't need the sacrifice of the Son of God.

 

[ninja007]

Ridiculous. Being humble and acknowledging the savior isn’t a sin.

Telling Jesus they were out of wine at the wedding wasn’t a sin. That was the moment Jesus was going to perform his first public miracle, and he addressed her as “woman” to make the connection with the Genesis prophecy, which actually reaffirms that she is the new Eve.

all have sinned,. pretty plain.

 

[Zebra]

I don't like it when people bad mouth Jesus's mother.

Neither do I

 

[Carl in Michigan]

The Catholic Church has declared that Mary is the Immaculate Conception, which means she was without the stain of original sin that us normal humans get at the moment of conception.

Thats your belief. Unfortunately there is no biblical basis for that belief

 

[rstrats]

Thats your belief. Unfortunately there is no biblical basis for that belief

That is why any "discussions" between Catholics and non-Catholics need to be prefaced with a note that Scripture is only one of the tools in their bag for discussing theological doctrines.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

That is why any "discussions" between Catholics and non-Catholics need to be prefaced with a note that Scripture is only one of the tools in their bag for discussing theological doctrines.

Scripture is THE ONLY tool for establishing doctrine

This nonsense is why so many reject the Catholic cult

 

[Meriweather]

Scripture is THE ONLY tool for establishing doctrine

This nonsense is why so many reject the Catholic cult

Scripture and tradition. Recall that scripture was tradition before it was written out to become scripture.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Mary called Jesus her Savior.

 

[rstrats]

Mary called Jesus her Savior.

And what was the Messiah's attitude with regard to her.

As far as scripture is concerned, the Messiah never refers to Mary as His mother but rather as woman. There are only 3 times mentioned where the Messiah spoke to her. And He seemed to be a bit perturbed with her 2 of those times. The 3rd time He merely told her to look at her son.

Also, He only spoke 2 times with regard to what someone said about her and again His response couldn't be considered very flattering.
There never seemed to any warmth shown between them.

And then aside from the Messiah, there is the fact that other than Galations 4:4 saying that the Messiah was born of a woman, none of the epistle writers ever mention her in any of their letters including the one to the church at Rome and the two by Peter.

 

[ding]

Scripture is THE ONLY tool for establishing doctrine

This nonsense is why so many reject the Catholic cult

If that were true you’d eat the flesh of Christ and drink his blood.

 

[ding]

And what was the Messiah's attitude with regard to her.

He turned water into wine before it was his time because she made a passing comment that the host was out of wine.

 

[rstrats]

He turned water into wine before it was his time because she made a passing comment that the host was out of wine.

Sounds a bit perturbed to me with His - "Woman, what have I to do with thee?" And how do you know what happened in the time between His comment and the changing of the water to wine? Did his Father tell his son that this was now the time that He had planned for His son to perform the first miracle?

 

[ding]

Sounds a bit perturbed to me with His - "Woman, what have I to do with thee?" And how do you know what happened in the time between His comment and the changing of the water to wine? Did his Father tell his son that this was now the time that He had planned for His son to perform the first miracle?

I think it shows just how much sway his mother had.

 

[hadit]

I think it shows just how much sway his mother had.

Right. Here on earth. Remember as well though, that the Disciple whom Jesus loved fell flat on his faith in fear and worship when he saw the glorified Christ, and Jesus didn't treat him as if he was anything special.

We've talked about this whole thing of Mary having influence over Jesus in heaven, and yes, I have heard Catholics say they pray to her, hoping she'll put in a good word with Him for them. I don't believe she does anything of the sort.

 

[hadit]

Scripture and tradition. Recall that scripture was tradition before it was written out to become scripture.

Don't forget as well that early church tradition was Jewish, and what was one thing Jews absolutely refused?

Statues and paintings of themselves, especially for people to bow down in front of and to treat as sacred. Why would we insist on following some traditions while ignoring other, earlier ones?

 

[ding]

Right. Here on earth. Remember as well though, that the Disciple whom Jesus loved fell flat on his faith in fear and worship when he saw the glorified Christ, and Jesus didn't treat him as if he was anything special.

We've talked about this whole thing of Mary having influence over Jesus in heaven, and yes, I have heard Catholics say they pray to her, hoping she'll put in a good word with Him for them. I don't believe she does anything of the sort.

No. You haven’t. You’ve heard them ask her to pray for them. This is a strawman argument for people who are insecure in their beliefs.

 

[hadit]

No. You haven’t. You’ve heard them ask her to pray for them. This is a strawman argument for people who are insecure in their beliefs.

No, I literally heard a Catholic woman in my class at church say she prays to Mary because she believes Mary will influence Jesus for her case.

 

[Meriweather]

As far as scripture is concerned, the Messiah never refers to Mary as His mother but rather as woman. There are only 3 times mentioned where the Messiah spoke to her. And He seemed to be a bit perturbed with her 2 of those times. The 3rd time He merely told her to look at her son.

Eve was referred to as 'woman' in John's Gospel which also presents Jesus as a second Adam. In Adam and Eve we have two examples of a man and a woman being disobedient to the will of God. In Jesus and Mary we have two examples of a man and a woman being obedient to the will of God.

In addressing Mary as 'Woman' Jesus was not perturbed, but deferential. It is interesting that this is only emphasized in John's Gospel.

 

[Meriweather]

Don't forget as well that early church tradition was Jewish, and what was one thing Jews absolutely refused?

Statues and paintings of themselves, especially for people to bow down in front of and to treat as sacred. Why would we insist on following some traditions while ignoring other, earlier ones?

As has been said over and over again: No one worships images. Think about this: Do you kneel or bow your head when you are in a closet, and is that worshiping the closet? When a particularly beautiful part of nature draws you into prayer due to its splendor and solitude, is that prayer worshiping nature? Did the Jewish people worship the images on the Ark of the Covenant, the serpent, or the images in the Temple? What draws one into prayer and contemplation of God, whether a work of art or a work of nature or a closet is not an idol, and never has been. Jewish pre-history dates back to times where people thought a graven image of something had the power of the real living thing--and it does not. As far as I know, no person of faith believes in the power of an inanimate object.

I don't know whether it is still brought up in Catholic schools, but when I attended, we were taught to avoid having, or even regarding, a rabbit's foot, penny, or any other object as "lucky". That was believing an inanimate object had power, and Christians do not believe inanimate objects have power of any kind--not even luck. And certainly not bad luck (such as walking under a ladder, breaking a mirror, or even seeing a black cat run in front of one.