Isaiah 53, the forbidden chapter of the Hebrew Bible

[Indeependent]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

You're still putting restrictions on God by claiming that one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible. That's simply false. God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated. In fact, the scriptures actually say the opposite of that. It says: "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Cor 1:27)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one should't look at the original language. I do that all the time, using a Hebrew lexicon. I like to see the original word and how it is used in other scriptures.

But as I posted before, for believers, God gave us the Holy Spirit and HE is our teacher. So we don't have to rely on church leaders or a select few rabbis to tell us what to think.

"highly educated"? one need not be "highly educated" to read hebrew-----my very own hubby was virtually an expert at age 4 -----but aramaic frustrates him. "Holy spirit" ? good-- so why try to quote a
translation of the bible?

No, that's not what I said. I was replying to fnecco's earlier point where said (sarcastically) "I'm sure your decades of Yeshiva education...." My point was decades of education is not necessary to know God.

education in Sanskrit is necessary to understand
the Bhagavad Gita . Education in hebrew and
aramaic is necessary to read and understand the
"old testament" Attempts to analyze the meaning
without knowing anything about the languages and USAGES OF THE TIME does not work.

You're putting God in a box. Again, do you honestly think that the living God of the universe doesn't want regular people to know Him? Do you really think that God set things up in a way that only a tiny number of people with decades of education hold the keys to understanding God?

Not only is that untrue, the bible is very clear that the exact opposite is true.

God purposely uses the simple and "foolish" to shame the "wise." Why? That's a thread in and of itself.

I presume you believe it takes years to earn an advanced degree in English, but learning The Torah isn't worth the effort.

Where on earth did you get that idea? No, I don't believe it takes an advanced degree of any kind.

I already posted scriptures (from both the Old and New testaments) that clearly show that when we come to God, HIS spirit is our teacher... we do not have to rely on priests, rabbis or anyone else. That doesn't mean we can't learn from other people. Of course I believe in learning from others, others who are spiritually mature and have true wisdom. But having a degree is not the key to those things. I mean look at atheists. Some of them are highly educated, yet completely spiritually blind. If you disagree, then you are thinking in a very worldly way.

It's funny...every time some Christian Evangelist encounters myself or someone I know, we always ask if they can read Scripture in the original language...Hebrew.
To the person, the Christian Evangelist always looks shocked and walks away.
You have it easy because you don't have to look me in the eye.

Not to mention that the Kings James Version is a horrendous translation.
The Septuagint was translated badly because every Jew who knew Hebrew would know it's a joke.

Maybe you didn't read the thread, we already went over this thoroughly. The living God of the universe doesn't require understanding Hebrew to know Him. If so, that would rule out the overwhelming majority of the world's population.

To think otherwise is completely absurd. Not to mention that it goes directly against what the Bible says.

And no, nothing you said shocked me, sorry.

Maybe you didn't read the thread, we already went over this thoroughly. The living God of the universe doesn't require understanding Hebrew to know Him. If so, that would rule out the overwhelming majority of the world's population.

How silly!...learn Hebrew...or are you too lazy?

You actually believe that one must understand Hebrew to know God? I have nothing against learning Hebrew, I would love to learn Hebrew. I already said earlier in the thread that I always go to the original word and look up its usage in other places. My point, again, is that understanding Hebrew is not necessary to know God. Having an advanced degree is not necessary to know God. I already posted scriptures that completely demolish that misguided, worldly thinking.

You can't know God; you can only know God's creation.

 

[fncceo]

You actually believe that one must understand Hebrew to know God?

If you're going to pester the Jews into accepting your polytheistic version of him, then, yeah, being able to read the same scripture that Jews read is kind of missionary 101.

You're trying to teach medicine from an accounting textbook.

 

[irosie91]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

You're still putting restrictions on God by claiming that one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible. That's simply false. God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated. In fact, the scriptures actually say the opposite of that. It says: "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Cor 1:27)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one should't look at the original language. I do that all the time, using a Hebrew lexicon. I like to see the original word and how it is used in other scriptures.

But as I posted before, for believers, God gave us the Holy Spirit and HE is our teacher. So we don't have to rely on church leaders or a select few rabbis to tell us what to think.

"highly educated"? one need not be "highly educated" to read hebrew-----my very own hubby was virtually an expert at age 4 -----but aramaic frustrates him. "Holy spirit" ? good-- so why try to quote a
translation of the bible?

No, that's not what I said. I was replying to fnecco's earlier point where said (sarcastically) "I'm sure your decades of Yeshiva education...." My point was decades of education is not necessary to know God.

education in Sanskrit is necessary to understand
the Bhagavad Gita . Education in hebrew and
aramaic is necessary to read and understand the
"old testament" Attempts to analyze the meaning
without knowing anything about the languages and USAGES OF THE TIME does not work.

You're putting God in a box. Again, do you honestly think that the living God of the universe doesn't want regular people to know Him? Do you really think that God set things up in a way that only a tiny number of people with decades of education hold the keys to understanding God?

Not only is that untrue, the bible is very clear that the exact opposite is true.

God purposely uses the simple and "foolish" to shame the "wise." Why? That's a thread in and of itself.

I presume you believe it takes years to earn an advanced degree in English, but learning The Torah isn't worth the effort.

Where on earth did you get that idea? No, I don't believe it takes an advanced degree of any kind.

I already posted scriptures (from both the Old and New testaments) that clearly show that when we come to God, HIS spirit is our teacher... we do not have to rely on priests, rabbis or anyone else. That doesn't mean we can't learn from other people. Of course I believe in learning from others, others who are spiritually mature and have true wisdom. But having a degree is not the key to those things. I mean look at atheists. Some of them are highly educated, yet completely spiritually blind. If you disagree, then you are thinking in a very worldly way.

It's funny...every time some Christian Evangelist encounters myself or someone I know, we always ask if they can read Scripture in the original language...Hebrew.
To the person, the Christian Evangelist always looks shocked and walks away.
You have it easy because you don't have to look me in the eye.

Not to mention that the Kings James Version is a horrendous translation.
The Septuagint was translated badly because every Jew who knew Hebrew would know it's a joke.

Maybe you didn't read the thread, we already went over this thoroughly. The living God of the universe doesn't require understanding Hebrew to know Him. If so, that would rule out the overwhelming majority of the world's population.

To think otherwise is completely absurd. Not to mention that it goes directly against what the Bible says.

And no, nothing you said shocked me, sorry.

Maybe you didn't read the thread, we already went over this thoroughly. The living God of the universe doesn't require understanding Hebrew to know Him. If so, that would rule out the overwhelming majority of the world's population.

How silly!...learn Hebrew...or are you too lazy?

You actually believe that one must understand Hebrew to know God? I have nothing against learning Hebrew, I would love to learn Hebrew. I already said earlier in the thread that I always go to the original word and look up its usage in other places. My point, again, is that understanding Hebrew is not necessary to know God. Having an advanced degree is not necessary to know God. I already posted scriptures that completely demolish that misguided, worldly thinking.

actually you have not posted scriptures---you posted
a translation of a language with which you have no
familiarity at all. You have stated that you know "god" thru the "holy spirit" and thus have no need for written words in any language

 

[Meriweather]

Judaism has never had more than one G-d. He has no son, wife, aunts, uncles, third cousins, or in-laws. Just the one.

Correct. God is One. That has never changed. Unless you are arguing the Burning Bush is a second God?

 

[surada]

I am trying to convince you God is One.

Judaism has never had more than one G-d. He has no son, wife, aunts, uncles, third cousins, or in-laws. Just the one.

Are you quite sure? God morphed slowly from the Canaanite pantheon and at one point God had a wife.. judging by the 4,000 clay idols of Asherah found around Jerusalem.

 

[LittleNipper]

Obviously not ... if they had, there would have been no reason to create the xtian pantheon...

Could it be you have as little understanding of Christianity as you believe Christians have for Judaism?
I believe Isaiah was written to an audience of that time--i.e., Israel--or at least those who were servants of God--were referenced as the suffering servant.
As a Christian I also believe that Jesus was the embodiment of Jewish history, that he was the living illustration of the chosen servant of God.

And I'm perfectly OK with your chosen interpretation. Xtianity is a perfect religion ... for xtians. Well-meaning simpletons should not attempt to foist their interpretations of Jewish scripture onto Jews.

Particularly when they can't even read Jewish scripture.

As to xtianity being a polytheistic religion. There is no other way for me to interpret this.

​

Psalm 19:7

​

King James Version The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Isaiah Chapter 53 יְשַׁעְיָהוּ

א מִי הֶאֱמִין, לִשְׁמֻעָתֵנוּ; וּזְרוֹעַ יְהוָה, עַל-מִי נִגְלָתָה.	1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?
ב וַיַּעַל כַּיּוֹנֵק לְפָנָיו, וְכַשֹּׁרֶשׁ מֵאֶרֶץ צִיָּה--לֹא-תֹאַר לוֹ, וְלֹא הָדָר; וְנִרְאֵהוּ וְלֹא-מַרְאֶה, וְנֶחְמְדֵהוּ.	2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.
ג נִבְזֶה וַחֲדַל אִישִׁים, אִישׁ מַכְאֹבוֹת וִידוּעַ חֹלִי; וּכְמַסְתֵּר פָּנִים מִמֶּנּוּ, נִבְזֶה וְלֹא חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ.	3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
ד אָכֵן חֳלָיֵנוּ הוּא נָשָׂא, וּמַכְאֹבֵינוּ סְבָלָם; וַאֲנַחְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ, נָגוּעַ מֻכֵּה אֱלֹהִים וּמְעֻנֶּה.	4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
ה וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ, מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֺנֹתֵינוּ; מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו, וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא-לָנוּ.	5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
ו כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ, אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ; וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ, אֵת עֲוֺן כֻּלָּנוּ.	6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
ז נִגַּשׂ וְהוּא נַעֲנֶה, וְלֹא יִפְתַּח-פִּיו, כַּשֶּׂה לַטֶּבַח יוּבָל, וּכְרָחֵל לִפְנֵי גֹזְזֶיהָ נֶאֱלָמָה; וְלֹא יִפְתַּח, פִּיו.	7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
ח מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.	8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
ט וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו; עַל לֹא-חָמָס עָשָׂה, וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו.	9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'
י וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ, הֶחֱלִי--אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים; וְחֵפֶץ יְהוָה, בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח.	10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
יא מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע--בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲוֺנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּל.	11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
יב לָכֵן אֲחַלֶּק-לוֹ בָרַבִּים, וְאֶת-עֲצוּמִים יְחַלֵּק שָׁלָל, תַּחַת אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱרָה לַמָּוֶת נַפְשׁוֹ, וְאֶת-פֹּשְׁעִים נִמְנָה; וְהוּא חֵטְא-רַבִּים נָשָׂא, וְלַפֹּשְׁעִים יַפְגִּיעַ.	12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[surada]

Obviously not ... if they had, there would have been no reason to create the xtian pantheon...

Could it be you have as little understanding of Christianity as you believe Christians have for Judaism?
I believe Isaiah was written to an audience of that time--i.e., Israel--or at least those who were servants of God--were referenced as the suffering servant.
As a Christian I also believe that Jesus was the embodiment of Jewish history, that he was the living illustration of the chosen servant of God.

And I'm perfectly OK with your chosen interpretation. Xtianity is a perfect religion ... for xtians. Well-meaning simpletons should not attempt to foist their interpretations of Jewish scripture onto Jews.

Particularly when they can't even read Jewish scripture.

As to xtianity being a polytheistic religion. There is no other way for me to interpret this.

​

Psalm 19:7

​

King James Version The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Isaiah Chapter 53 יְשַׁעְיָהוּ

א מִי הֶאֱמִין, לִשְׁמֻעָתֵנוּ; וּזְרוֹעַ יְהוָה, עַל-מִי נִגְלָתָה.	1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?
ב וַיַּעַל כַּיּוֹנֵק לְפָנָיו, וְכַשֹּׁרֶשׁ מֵאֶרֶץ צִיָּה--לֹא-תֹאַר לוֹ, וְלֹא הָדָר; וְנִרְאֵהוּ וְלֹא-מַרְאֶה, וְנֶחְמְדֵהוּ.	2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.
ג נִבְזֶה וַחֲדַל אִישִׁים, אִישׁ מַכְאֹבוֹת וִידוּעַ חֹלִי; וּכְמַסְתֵּר פָּנִים מִמֶּנּוּ, נִבְזֶה וְלֹא חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ.	3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
ד אָכֵן חֳלָיֵנוּ הוּא נָשָׂא, וּמַכְאֹבֵינוּ סְבָלָם; וַאֲנַחְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ, נָגוּעַ מֻכֵּה אֱלֹהִים וּמְעֻנֶּה.	4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
ה וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ, מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֺנֹתֵינוּ; מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו, וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא-לָנוּ.	5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
ו כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ, אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ; וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ, אֵת עֲוֺן כֻּלָּנוּ.	6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
ז נִגַּשׂ וְהוּא נַעֲנֶה, וְלֹא יִפְתַּח-פִּיו, כַּשֶּׂה לַטֶּבַח יוּבָל, וּכְרָחֵל לִפְנֵי גֹזְזֶיהָ נֶאֱלָמָה; וְלֹא יִפְתַּח, פִּיו.	7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
ח מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.	8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
ט וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו; עַל לֹא-חָמָס עָשָׂה, וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו.	9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'
י וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ, הֶחֱלִי--אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים; וְחֵפֶץ יְהוָה, בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח.	10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
יא מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע--בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲוֺנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּל.	11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
יב לָכֵן אֲחַלֶּק-לוֹ בָרַבִּים, וְאֶת-עֲצוּמִים יְחַלֵּק שָׁלָל, תַּחַת אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱרָה לַמָּוֶת נַפְשׁוֹ, וְאֶת-פֹּשְׁעִים נִמְנָה; וְהוּא חֵטְא-רַבִּים נָשָׂא, וְלַפֹּשְׁעִים יַפְגִּיעַ.	12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah is talking about his son Israel.

I too am a Christian, but Jesus is not the prophesied Messiah. He was NOT an anointed warrior king who vanquished the enemies of the Jews. Accept Jesus as he is. You don't need to embellish him or tamper with Jewish scripture.

 

[Indeependent]

I am trying to convince you God is One.

Judaism has never had more than one G-d. He has no son, wife, aunts, uncles, third cousins, or in-laws. Just the one.

Are you quite sure? God morphed slowly from the Canaanite pantheon and at one point God had a wife.. judging by the 4,000 clay idols of Asherah found around Jerusalem.

WTF are you talking about?
The Asherah were worshipped by the descendants of Ham, not Shem.

 

[HaShev]

Isaiah 53 is using plurality and past tense not singular future tense.
Isaiah 53:3 "Despised and rejected of men.",

look at the many hate Israel posts on this discussion forum format alone, this is living tangible proof that Israel is fitting that label.

It cannot be a match to Jesus with the Christian Bible showing a man who was supposedly "praised by all"(Luke 2 :52, Luke 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25).
So then according to Christian standards Israel must be referred to, since Jesus is served by followers not a servant to them, and Israel is Called God's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10, 52:13) In 53:1 "And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" In chapter 52, for example, ACCORDING TO History it's Israel "oppressed without cause" (v.4) and "taken away" (v.5).

Context also talks of Israel being disfigured and unrecognizable whether the people in deathcamps or Israel boundries being disfigured and unrecognizable Israel best fits Isaiah 53.

In no way is Isaiah 53 messianic, so it doesn't matter except not to allow people lie and manipulate causing mankind to sabotage
"stability and completeness" (Shalem).

 

[buttercup]

You actually believe that one must understand Hebrew to know God?

If you're going to pester the Jews into accepting your polytheistic version of him, then, yeah, being able to read the same scripture that Jews read is kind of missionary 101.

You're trying to teach medicine from an accounting textbook.

Everything you said is wrong. Firstly, Christianity is not polytheistic. The fact that you don't understand the trinity doesn't make it polytheism. There is one God. Secondly, I wasn't talking about the Jews, when I said understanding Hebrew is not necessary, I was talking about people of the entire world. By claiming that understanding Hebrew is necessary to know God, you are not only going directly against scripture, but you and a couple others are speaking absurdities about God, and portraying Him in a way that is totally contrary to His nature.

But what you're doing (and all your posts here) inadvertently corroborate what the bible says about the blinded hearts of the Jewish people. The stubbornness and hard hearts caused God to give them over to spiritual blindness, so there has been a "veil" over their eyes. I'm not saying that to offend you, that is not from me, it is biblical. It's what the bible says, in both the old and new testaments.

But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.​

​

2 Corinthians 3: 14-16​

Jesus stated this too, and he referenced a passage from Isaiah which prophesied this blindness:

This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:​

​

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,​

and you will indeed see but never perceive.”​

For this people's heart has grown dull,​

and with their ears they can barely hear,​

and their eyes they have closed,​

lest they should see with their eyes​

and hear with their ears​

and understand with their heart​

and turn, and I would heal them.’​

But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.​

​

For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see,​

and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.​

​

Matt 13: 13-17​

​

There are many more passages like that, foretelling the spiritual blindness upon the Jewish people. This one is also from Isaiah, and I could post many more if I wanted to.

They do not know nor understand;​

For He has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see,​

And their hearts, so that they cannot understand.​

And no one considers in his heart,​

Nor is there knowledge nor understanding to say,​

“I have burned half of it in the fire,​

Yes, I have also baked bread on its coals;​

I have roasted meat and eaten it;​

And shall I make the rest of it an abomination?​

Shall I fall down before a block of wood?”​

He feeds on ashes;​

A deceived heart has turned him aside;​

And he cannot deliver his soul,​

Nor say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”​

​

Isaiah 44:18-20​

The good news is, that collective blindness does not last forever, it WILL be lifted, and that too was foretold by the prophets.

"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."​

​

Zechariah 12:10-11​

 

[fncceo]

But what you're doing (and all your posts here) inadvertently corroborate what the bible says about the blinded hearts of Jewish people.

So... the fact that I don't buy your BS is proof your BS is true?

I've heard a lot of sales pitches, that's one of worst.

Ballsy, but terrible.

 

[buttercup]

But what you're doing (and all your posts here) inadvertently corroborate what the bible says about the blinded hearts of Jewish people.

So... the fact that I don't buy your BS is proof your BS is true?

I've heard a lot of sales pitches, that's one of worst.

Ballsy, but terrible.

You don't believe your own scriptures? I didn't post only New Testament, look again. That blindness was prophesied in numerous places in the Hebrew bible, I could post more if I wanted to.

The fact that you reject those scriptures in such a knee-jerk way actually strengthens the point. I'm sure you didn't mean to do that.

 

[fncceo]

But what you're doing (and all your posts here) inadvertently corroborate what the bible says about the blinded hearts of Jewish people.

So... the fact that I don't buy your BS is proof your BS is true?

I've heard a lot of sales pitches, that's one of worst.

Ballsy, but terrible.

You don't believe your own scriptures? I didn't post only New Testament, look again. That blindness was prophesied in numerous places in the Hebrew bible, I could post more if I wanted to.

The fact that you reject those scriptures in such a knee-jerk way actually strengthens the point. I'm sure you didn't mean to do that.

I hope your eternal salvation doesn't depend on filling your quota of souls this month. I'm prophesying that you're coming up short by a lot.

 

[buttercup]

But what you're doing (and all your posts here) inadvertently corroborate what the bible says about the blinded hearts of Jewish people.

So... the fact that I don't buy your BS is proof your BS is true?

I've heard a lot of sales pitches, that's one of worst.

Ballsy, but terrible.

You don't believe your own scriptures? I didn't post only New Testament, look again. That blindness was prophesied in numerous places in the Hebrew bible, I could post more if I wanted to.

The fact that you reject those scriptures in such a knee-jerk way actually strengthens the point. I'm sure you didn't mean to do that.

I hope your eternal salvation doesn't depend on filling your quota of souls this month. I'm prophesying that you're coming up short by a lot.

View attachment 441932

I wasn't talking about salvation. I was just bringing up a very important (and obviously controversial) topic, which of course you would summarily reject. Your response is totally understandable.

 

[Meriweather]

what the bible says about the blinded hearts

At the time the passage was written, Jews were the people of God. Today that has expanded to include more faiths, and more people of God. Over the years and even today there are many blinded hearts in all people of faith. In fact, none of us are exempt from that judgement all 24-7, 365 days. We can all be blind at certain times and/or over certain issues. And we know what Jesus told us about blindness...remove the log from our own eye before trying to help another with a splinter in theirs.

 

[Meriweather]

I hope your eternal salvation doesn't depend on

It doesn't. No one's does.

 

[buttercup]

what the bible says about the blinded hearts

At the time the passage was written, Jews were the people of God. Today that has expanded to include more faiths, and more people of God. Over the years and even today there are many blinded hearts in all people of faith. In fact, none of us are exempt from that judgement all 24-7, 365 days. We can all be blind at certain times and/or over certain issues. And we know what Jesus told us about blindness...remove the log from our own eye before trying to help another with a splinter in theirs.

You completely misunderstood my post. I never argued against any of those points. Those things weren't even what we were talking about.

Yes, of course tons of people in the world today have spiritual blindness. I never claimed or implied that the blindness is only among Jews. 2 Corinthians 4:4 makes it clear that satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers in the world in general. (In fact, after I posted I thought about adding that and I would most likely have gotten to it anyway.)

This was not a judgement (all believers at one time were spiritually blind and it's true that we can still have blindness in certain areas) it was simply posting what the bible says, and I did that in response to those who arrogantly claimed that one must understand Hebrew in order to have the truth. Jesus Himself talked about spiritual blindness among those who didn't believe Him, so it's not something we should sweep under the rug in order to not offend anyone. It is biblical, and it is an important truth that many people aren't even aware of.

 

[Meriweather]

This was not a judgement (all believers at one time were spiritually blind and it's true that we can still have blindness in certain areas) it was simply posting what the bible says, and I did that in response to those who arrogantly claimed that one must understand Hebrew in order to have the truth.

In fact, it is best to know and understand Hebrew to hear the full intent of the original author to his original audience. They were reacting to the current events of their own time. Those who speak more than one language can tell us that it is difficult to to translate precise meanings. Sometimes the best that can be done is to deliver the general idea.

Hebrews and the Hebrew language sets forth a beautiful account of mankind and God in its midst. The wisdom is astounding. Matthew was the first of the Gospel writers who seemed to grasp the story of Jesus to be an overlay of the story of Israel. Imagine a group shortly after the time of Jesus consisting of a mix of Jews and Gentiles. With Matthew, to know one story was to know a good portion of the other.

I am not criticizing, just noting there is much modern Jews today can still teach us, can still fill in around the edges, making faith in God ever more fertile and enriching. There should be no issue with them telling their own story. Quite the opposite. We should be welcoming it.

 

[buttercup]

This was not a judgement (all believers at one time were spiritually blind and it's true that we can still have blindness in certain areas) it was simply posting what the bible says, and I did that in response to those who arrogantly claimed that one must understand Hebrew in order to have the truth.

In fact, it is best to know and understand Hebrew to hear the full intent of the original author to his original audience. They were reacting to the current events of their own time. Those who speak more than one language can tell us that it is difficult to to translate precise meanings. Sometimes the best that can be done is to deliver the general idea.

Hebrews and the Hebrew language sets forth a beautiful account of mankind and God in its midst. The wisdom is astounding. Matthew was the first of the Gospel writers who seemed to grasp the story of Jesus to be an overlay of the story of Israel. Imagine a group shortly after the time of Jesus consisting of a mix of Jews and Gentiles. With Matthew, to know one story was to know a good portion of the other.

I am not criticizing, just noting there is much modern Jews today can still teach us, can still fill in around the edges, making faith in God ever more fertile and enriching. There should be no issue with them telling their own story. Quite the opposite. We should be welcoming it.

I addressed that point earlier. Of course it's good for any student of the bible to go to the original words, and as I said earlier, I always try to get to the true meaning of a word by studying the root of it and seeing how and where it was used. As I said earlier, I would love to learn Hebrew, I never once claimed that it was NOT good to learn it. Of course it is! My point was that it is not necessary in order to know God and understand the truth.

The reason this topic got brought up in the first place is because I brought up several reasons why Isaiah 53 is not about the nation of Israel, and the reasons I listed were backed up scripturally. In response to that, someone said something like, "So I should believe you rather than someone with decades of education?" - implying that only higher education or being fluent in Hebrew is the key to understanding God.

The bible says just the opposite. In fact, God is so against pride that He purposely set things up in a way that those with a childlike faith - the "weak" and "foolish" would shame the "wise." (1 Corinthians 1:27)

In fact, this is probably a topic for a thread of its own, but the intellect isn't even the way we find God.... it's a spiritual thing. That's why the bible says that to the "natural man" the Gospel is foolishness. Because it's not something we discern intellectually, it is spiritual.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14​

 

[fncceo]

There should be no issue with them telling their own story.

The issue here isn't Jews telling their own story. The issue here is non-Jews telling Jews their own story.

It's like a Black History Month Essay Contest where all the contestants are white.