Isaiah 53, the forbidden chapter of the Hebrew Bible

[fncceo]

1 John 2:26-27

John Grisham or John Steinbeck?

no one knows----my conclusion is that JOHN which was a very common name at that time was used as a pen name. Something like Ploni ben Ploni It was used for the writing of the BOOK OF REVULSIONS (sorta like no one wanted to claim it)

I've never understood why xtians quote their own scriptures as proof of what Jewish scripture says. That would be like quoting Dean Koontz to explain the novels of Stephen King.

 

[buttercup]

God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated.

Most of the 'ordinary' people I know could ready Hebrew since they were kids.

I'm talking about the whole world. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is also the one true God of the whole world!

So in that sense "ordinary" means regular people who don't speak Hebrew or have a PhD in theology. Those things actually mean nothing if one is spiritually blind, but that's a whole other topic.

 

[buttercup]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

You're still putting restrictions on God by claiming that one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible. That's simply false. God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated. In fact, the scriptures actually say the opposite of that. It says: "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Cor 1:27)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one should't look at the original language. I do that all the time, using a Hebrew lexicon. I like to see the original word and how it is used in other scriptures.

But as I posted before, for believers, God gave us the Holy Spirit and HE is our teacher. So we don't have to rely on church leaders or a select few rabbis to tell us what to think.

"highly educated"? one need not be "highly educated" to read hebrew-----my very own hubby was virtually an expert at age 4 -----but aramaic frustrates him. "Holy spirit" ? good-- so why try to quote a
translation of the bible?

No, that's not what I said. I was replying to fnecco's earlier point where said (sarcastically) "I'm sure your decades of Yeshiva education...." My point was decades of education is not necessary to know God.

 

[fncceo]

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is also the one true God of the whole world!

The first true thing I've heard you say yet.

It's truly unfortunate that there only a few million people on this planet who understand that.

 

[irosie91]

Read it again! If Israel is represented by HE, then who is the OUR and the WE. If the book of Isaiah was written for the JEWS, then are the Jews not the WE and the OUR.

Isaiah 53

New International Version



1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

pronouns is a whole other universe in hebrew idiom.

 

[buttercup]

It's truly unfortunate that there only a few million people on this planet who understand that.

Christians understand that. And there are more than 2 billion Christians in this world.

 

[Natural Citizen]

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is also the one true God of the whole world!

The first true thing I've heard you say yet.

It's truly unfortunate that there only a few million people on this planet who understand that.

Well, wait a minute, now you two are confusing me.

I thought the old writings were saying that El Shaddai was always peeing on Adon's Cheerios. It seems to me that they were referencing two distinct deities.

I tell ya. Are we going by the old writings or aren't we?

 

[Indeependent]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

You're still putting restrictions on God by claiming that one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible. That's simply false. God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated. In fact, the scriptures actually say the opposite of that. It says: "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Cor 1:27)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one shouldn't look at the original language. I do that all the time, using a Hebrew lexicon. I like to see the original word and how it is used in other scriptures.

But as I posted before, for believers, God gave us the Holy Spirit and HE is our teacher. So we don't have to rely on church leaders or a select few rabbis to tell us what to think.

one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible
It's simple...Learn Hebrew.

 

[irosie91]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

You're still putting restrictions on God by claiming that one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible. That's simply false. God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated. In fact, the scriptures actually say the opposite of that. It says: "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Cor 1:27)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one should't look at the original language. I do that all the time, using a Hebrew lexicon. I like to see the original word and how it is used in other scriptures.

But as I posted before, for believers, God gave us the Holy Spirit and HE is our teacher. So we don't have to rely on church leaders or a select few rabbis to tell us what to think.

"highly educated"? one need not be "highly educated" to read hebrew-----my very own hubby was virtually an expert at age 4 -----but aramaic frustrates him. "Holy spirit" ? good-- so why try to quote a
translation of the bible?

No, that's not what I said. I was replying to fnecco's earlier point where said (sarcastically) "I'm sure your decades of Yeshiva education...." My point was decades of education is not necessary to know God.

education in Sanskrit is necessary to understand
the Bhagavad Gita . Education in hebrew and
aramaic is necessary to read and understand the
"old testament" Attempts to analyze the meaning
without knowing anything about the languages and USAGES OF THE TIME does not work.

 

[Indeependent]

It's truly unfortunate that there only a few million people on this planet who understand that.

Christians understand that. And there are more than 2 billion Christians in this world.

Not to mention billions of Muslims and Hindus.

 

[buttercup]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

You're still putting restrictions on God by claiming that one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible. That's simply false. God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated. In fact, the scriptures actually say the opposite of that. It says: "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Cor 1:27)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one should't look at the original language. I do that all the time, using a Hebrew lexicon. I like to see the original word and how it is used in other scriptures.

But as I posted before, for believers, God gave us the Holy Spirit and HE is our teacher. So we don't have to rely on church leaders or a select few rabbis to tell us what to think.

"highly educated"? one need not be "highly educated" to read hebrew-----my very own hubby was virtually an expert at age 4 -----but aramaic frustrates him. "Holy spirit" ? good-- so why try to quote a
translation of the bible?

No, that's not what I said. I was replying to fnecco's earlier point where said (sarcastically) "I'm sure your decades of Yeshiva education...." My point was decades of education is not necessary to know God.

education in Sanskrit is necessary to understand
the Bhagavad Gita . Education in hebrew and
aramaic is necessary to read and understand the
"old testament" Attempts to analyze the meaning
without knowing anything about the languages and USAGES OF THE TIME does not work.

You're putting God in a box. Again, do you honestly think that the living God of the universe doesn't want regular people to know Him? Do you really think that God set things up in a way that only a tiny number of people with decades of education hold the keys to understanding God?

Not only is that untrue, the bible is very clear that the exact opposite is true.

God purposely uses the simple and "foolish" to shame the "wise." Why? That's a thread in and of itself.

 

[fncceo]

Christians understand that.

Obviously not ... if they had, there would have been no reason to create the xtian pantheon...

 

[fncceo]

living God of the universe doesn't want regular people to know Him?

My people are exceptionally regular.

 

[Indeependent]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

You're still putting restrictions on God by claiming that one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible. That's simply false. God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated. In fact, the scriptures actually say the opposite of that. It says: "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Cor 1:27)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one should't look at the original language. I do that all the time, using a Hebrew lexicon. I like to see the original word and how it is used in other scriptures.

But as I posted before, for believers, God gave us the Holy Spirit and HE is our teacher. So we don't have to rely on church leaders or a select few rabbis to tell us what to think.

"highly educated"? one need not be "highly educated" to read hebrew-----my very own hubby was virtually an expert at age 4 -----but aramaic frustrates him. "Holy spirit" ? good-- so why try to quote a
translation of the bible?

No, that's not what I said. I was replying to fnecco's earlier point where said (sarcastically) "I'm sure your decades of Yeshiva education...." My point was decades of education is not necessary to know God.

education in Sanskrit is necessary to understand
the Bhagavad Gita . Education in hebrew and
aramaic is necessary to read and understand the
"old testament" Attempts to analyze the meaning
without knowing anything about the languages and USAGES OF THE TIME does not work.

You're putting God in a box. Again, do you honestly think that the living God of the universe doesn't want regular people to know Him? Do you really think that God set things up in a way that only a tiny number of people with decades of education hold the keys to understanding God?

Not only is that untrue, the bible is very clear that the exact opposite is true.

God purposely uses the simple and "foolish" to shame the "wise." Why? That's a thread in and of itself.

Learn Hebrew.
No human can know God; we can only learn about His creation.

 

[Indeependent]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

You're still putting restrictions on God by claiming that one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible. That's simply false. God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated. In fact, the scriptures actually say the opposite of that. It says: "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Cor 1:27)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one should't look at the original language. I do that all the time, using a Hebrew lexicon. I like to see the original word and how it is used in other scriptures.

But as I posted before, for believers, God gave us the Holy Spirit and HE is our teacher. So we don't have to rely on church leaders or a select few rabbis to tell us what to think.

"highly educated"? one need not be "highly educated" to read hebrew-----my very own hubby was virtually an expert at age 4 -----but aramaic frustrates him. "Holy spirit" ? good-- so why try to quote a
translation of the bible?

No, that's not what I said. I was replying to fnecco's earlier point where said (sarcastically) "I'm sure your decades of Yeshiva education...." My point was decades of education is not necessary to know God.

education in Sanskrit is necessary to understand
the Bhagavad Gita . Education in hebrew and
aramaic is necessary to read and understand the
"old testament" Attempts to analyze the meaning
without knowing anything about the languages and USAGES OF THE TIME does not work.

You're putting God in a box. Again, do you honestly think that the living God of the universe doesn't want regular people to know Him? Do you really think that God set things up in a way that only a tiny number of people with decades of education hold the keys to understanding God?

Not only is that untrue, the bible is very clear that the exact opposite is true.

God purposely uses the simple and "foolish" to shame the "wise." Why? That's a thread in and of itself.

I presume you believe it takes years to earn an advanced degree in English, but learning The Torah isn't worth the effort.

 

[Meriweather]

Obviously not ... if they had, there would have been no reason to create the xtian pantheon...

Could it be you have as little understanding of Christianity as you believe Christians have for Judaism?
I believe Isaiah was written to an audience of that time--i.e., Israel--or at least those who were servants of God--were referenced as the suffering servant.
As a Christian I also believe that Jesus was the embodiment of Jewish history, that he was the living illustration of the chosen servant of God.

 

[LittleNipper]

I'm neither a Hebrew nor Greek scholar.

You don't read the language of your Bible, but you claim to know it?

And you may claim to know the language of your Bible, but you likely don't read it --- at least not take it at simple face value.

if you take a translation of any book, especially a scriptural writing "at face value", little nip---you is STOOOOPID. Theoretically I COULD learn Sanskrit----but if I decided to take the idea of an army of FLYING monkeys at "face
value" I would be a shallow minded idiot. .
Getting back to "face value" I have never met an "enthusiastic" christian willing to even attempt to understand the New Testament

Well, I will introduce you some. Yet I presume that you wont like it... Home

too late----I read your idiot propaganda YEARS AGO (pre-internet). I also read both the New Testament and the "old testament" ---in my teen years. FYI I have no "Jewish Education" as a child. I had MORE christian education as a child because a friendly neighbor (lutheran) took me to Sunday school many times to accompany her daughter.
But I was also an avid READER as a kid and came to understand that the sunday school teacher was a jerk

Not all Sunday School teachers are "jerks", and not all "Christians" are Fundamentalists nor born-again for that matter. You should attempt to study the Bible once more, now that you are more mature.

try again----at no time did I write "..... all Sunday School teachers are jerks" "attempt to study the
bible..." ? I probably know it far better than do you

but just wanted to say that a lot of Messianic Jews came to Christ because of Isaiah 53

It's tempting for some to believe that "Messianic Jews" are Jews who became xtians but retained Jewish ritual.

But, the fact is, the majority of Messianic Jews were born xtian and adopted Jewish ritual as a way of hooking in Jews to their religion.

Messianic Judaism and groups such as "Jews for Jesus" are Protestant xtian groups and are funded by Protestant xtian churches.

Yes, I would have to say that "Protestant" groups are likely to fund Biblical missionary work. Christians do not want anyone to go to hell without hearing the Gospel message. However, many Jews I have met do not practice their Orthodoxy. What they have are family TRADITIONS. I have even talked to "Jews" who are atheists. And oddly, most Jews would much rather see such relatives remain atheists than to come to believe in GOD and become Christians. I'm sure that GOD expects more from individuals than the wearing of odd looking fedoras and dreadlocks by each ear; however, GOD will take anyone just as he is and make of them a new creature if they are willing to seek GOD beyond mere traditions.

your post is rude, vulgar and disgusting

I seem to have hit a nerve with you. Sorry, but my post is anything but rude, vulgar, and disgusting. It is honest and straight to the point. If the only thing that makes a Jew a Jew is his cultural traditions (with no regard for GOD) what real value of it is there? If, however, the fact is that all those traditions point to GOD and HIS salvation of fallen humanity, then it is of eternal value. Christians shouldn't be practicing "Christianity" to make other Christians happy ---- but to embrace GOD! And Jews should not be practicing Judaism to bring contentment to other Jews, but for the very same reason previously stated!

more rude, vulgar, filth. It takes a real peanut brain SCHMUCK to mock modes of dress. There is no "god" in christianity-----it is all tinsel, candycanes and jelly beans

So you mock the Savior but are upset over one's view of style?

style? savior? The dress style of the person you call "jesus" included a fringed mantle and trimmed hair except at the cheekbone and the beard. It is described, HISTORICALLY---in detail

I'm not speaking of beards nor fringed mantles. I'm speaking of modern haircuts with Shirley Temple curls at the "temples" in an attempt to appease the law of Moses through compromise. And this is exactly what non-Messianic Jews have been doing since their Temple at Jerusalem was cast to the ground. They don't sacrifice. There is no Holy of Holies. They have been compromising in every attempt to appease GOD ---- according to "rabbinical" standards. If what I'm saying is false, then why is every effort even now being made to breed a red cow by Jews? יֵשׁוּעַ paid it all. It is finished (salvation wise). It's been finished for 2000 years and the Messiah will return and establish HIS MILLENNIAL KINGDOM eventually; however, the 7 year TIME OF JACOB's TROUBLE must occur first. And frankly, I firmly believe everything that has happen particularly in the last approx. 100 years is quickly bringing everything to a climax.

 

[irosie91]

Obviously not ... if they had, there would have been no reason to create the xtian pantheon...

Could it be you have as little understanding of Christianity as you believe Christians have for Judaism?
I believe Isaiah was written to an audience of that time--i.e., Israel--or at least those who were servants of God--were referenced as the suffering servant.
As a Christian I also believe that Jesus was the embodiment of Jewish history, that he was the living illustration of the chosen servant of God.

well-----ok. It's certainly not what other christians
seem to believe. So much for Metaphors. You seem to present the whole story like the Garden of Eden ---
Metaphor

 

[buttercup]

One doesn't need to be a rabbi, pastor or a priest to read and understand the bible.

But, one should at least know how to read it. If you can't read and understand Hebrew, you aren't studying Torah. You're studying someone else's adulterated version of it.

You're still putting restrictions on God by claiming that one must know Hebrew in order to understand the bible. That's simply false. God purposely set things up in a way that ordinary people could know Him, not just the highly educated. In fact, the scriptures actually say the opposite of that. It says: "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" (1 Cor 1:27)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one should't look at the original language. I do that all the time, using a Hebrew lexicon. I like to see the original word and how it is used in other scriptures.

But as I posted before, for believers, God gave us the Holy Spirit and HE is our teacher. So we don't have to rely on church leaders or a select few rabbis to tell us what to think.

"highly educated"? one need not be "highly educated" to read hebrew-----my very own hubby was virtually an expert at age 4 -----but aramaic frustrates him. "Holy spirit" ? good-- so why try to quote a
translation of the bible?

No, that's not what I said. I was replying to fnecco's earlier point where said (sarcastically) "I'm sure your decades of Yeshiva education...." My point was decades of education is not necessary to know God.

education in Sanskrit is necessary to understand
the Bhagavad Gita . Education in hebrew and
aramaic is necessary to read and understand the
"old testament" Attempts to analyze the meaning
without knowing anything about the languages and USAGES OF THE TIME does not work.

You're putting God in a box. Again, do you honestly think that the living God of the universe doesn't want regular people to know Him? Do you really think that God set things up in a way that only a tiny number of people with decades of education hold the keys to understanding God?

Not only is that untrue, the bible is very clear that the exact opposite is true.

God purposely uses the simple and "foolish" to shame the "wise." Why? That's a thread in and of itself.

I presume you believe it takes years to earn an advanced degree in English, but learning The Torah isn't worth the effort.

Where on earth did you get that idea? No, I don't believe it takes an advanced degree of any kind.

I already posted scriptures (from both the Old and New testaments) that clearly show that when we come to God, HIS spirit is our teacher... we do not have to rely on priests, rabbis or anyone else. That doesn't mean we can't learn from other people. Of course I believe in learning from others, others who are spiritually mature and have true wisdom. But having a degree is not the key to those things. I mean look at atheists. Some of them are highly educated, yet completely spiritually blind. If you disagree, then you are thinking in a very worldly way.

 

[fncceo]

Obviously not ... if they had, there would have been no reason to create the xtian pantheon...

Could it be you have as little understanding of Christianity as you believe Christians have for Judaism?
I believe Isaiah was written to an audience of that time--i.e., Israel--or at least those who were servants of God--were referenced as the suffering servant.
As a Christian I also believe that Jesus was the embodiment of Jewish history, that he was the living illustration of the chosen servant of God.

And I'm perfectly OK with your chosen interpretation. Xtianity is a perfect religion ... for xtians. Well-meaning simpletons should not attempt to foist their interpretations of Jewish scripture onto Jews.

Particularly when they can't even read Jewish scripture.

As to xtianity being a polytheistic religion. There is no other way for me to interpret this.