How to get to heaven...

[Drake_Roberts]

He would hear the Gospel preached in the after life and make his choice whether to accept the proxy work done for Him through Jesus Christ or not.

The gospel won't be preached in the next age by us saints. Everyone will speak from the knowledge of God instead of just us saints and prophets during this age.

Jeremiah 31
31: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
32: not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD.
33: But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34: And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

How the hell do you know what will happen in the next life? I for one wish I knew.

 

[percysunshine]

I have a question.

If someone here were posting from Heaven, how would we know?

.

 

[Drake_Roberts]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Is a person saved before or without baptism? No more so than he is saved before or without faith!

Acts 3:22,23 says we must give heed to all things that Jesus teaches.

Salvation may be compared to following a recipe. To have the desired result, it is not enough to follow some or most of the steps. One must include all the ingredients.



[James 2:10; Revelation 22:18,19; Acts 20:27; Matthew 28:20; 4:4-7]

Mark 16:16 says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

It says, "....he that believeth not shall be damned" and not "he that is not baptized and believeth not shall be damned" because it is belief that causes salvation and not baptism."

Faith without works is DEAD.
One can not be saved by faith only.
It does not work that way.
One can not be saved by deeds only, however, I am not as strict here - I do share the concept that the good people of other faiths can be saved, because the Mercy of God is omnipotent.

For once, Vox, I agree with you. But only on that people of other faiths can be saved.

 

[Drake_Roberts]

I have a question.

If someone here were posting from Heaven, how would we know?

.

Because they could get God to post for them and our arguments would all be proven invalid. Every one.

 

[Drake_Roberts]

Should I be worried that every time I mean to type "Michael", I type my fiancée's name instead?

 

[Drake_Roberts]

Why does everyone assume Satan rules Hell? Just throwing it out there...

 

[Mertex]

Where did you learn all these lies you posted here?

The fact that you don't believe what I've said does not prove they are lies.

I don't have to believe that what you say are lies. I KNOW they are lies taught to you by the beast, which is where Christianity got all it's information.

Whatever floats your boat....you don't know anything, perhaps you are one of Satan's demons, trying to destroy what is good. Be gone.

 

[percysunshine]

I have a question.

If someone here were posting from Heaven, how would we know?

.

Because they could get God to post for them and our arguments would all be proven invalid. Every one.

God is too busy to bother with USMB. He would delegate it.

 

[Mertex]

Chuck I do not agree with the concept that faith alone is enough for salvation.
So I just do not want to engage in the fruitless discussion.
I love you as a brother in Christ and I believe we all have our road to salvation.
It does not mean that I have to "convert" you, or vice verse.

Vox, faith without works is dead. ( you are correct in that works is the evidence of faith! ) Faith without enduring unto the end is not going to get us into heaven either. Those that endure until the end? The same shall be saved. That is what Jesus said. Now I have studied the history of some Catholic saints who endured until the end. Savonarolla, John Hus, John of the Cross, Michael Molinos to name a few..... many more were executed for their faith in God. I've also been told of stories where the communists came into a church to execute those who wouldn't deny their faith and all but a handful stayed behind. The communists then locked the doors and said, now lets have church. They were believers who didn't want any false christians to know who they were and expose their identities. I believe in the future we may very well have the opportunity to die for our faith. I do not believe in the rapture as some here do. When the hard times hit we need to be ready.

I remember the story of some russian communists who marched a group of christians out onto a frozen lake and left them there to die. They said, if you deny Christ? You can come in off the ice. They said no. They were ordered go onto the ice, strip down and lay down until they died. The russian soldiers built a campfire at the edge of the lake waiting for them to die. After some time one of the christians came in off the ice and denied his faith and went home. One of the russian soldiers said, I'll take his place, stripped down went out on the ice an layed down and froze to death in the other christians place. I imagine to myself that the one who walked in off the ice and denied his faith was a big talker and very sure of himself that he would be the one to surely go to heaven. He probably believed in the rapture and never considered he would be put in such a predicament.

The truth is those that endure until the end shall be saved. It is best to trust in God, be humble in our faith and not be presuming upon the grace of God. I've never heard of a Christian saying I'm sure I will make it to heaven but I'm not so sure about you. I pray every night God had mercy upon me, forgive me of anything I have said or done that has offended you or anyone else. Show me any hidden thing that is displeasing to you so I can get rid of it. Give me your strength to endure whatever may come. Only God knows the heart of each human being. God is faithful. I believe God. - Jeri

You have no Truth in you because of all the lies you just posted here. Saints aren't sinners called Christians. Not one Catholic saint is a true saint of our Creator's. They were all liars who followed the laws of the Vatican, not the laws of our Creator. This means they were disobedient to God's commandments and worshiped other gods before our invisible Creator.

You sound like Judas Iscariot. You think you know so much, but are just a loud noise.....with no substance. Your words give you away.

 

[Drake_Roberts]

This is all so confusing. I was baptized, but was I really? I was dunked, and a bunch of prayers said over me, and I was told I was now "saved" and I would be filled with glory and the love of God...didn't I feel different already? I nodded. Oh yes. I felt wonderful. Um. No. I felt relieved I would not be stung forever and ever by scorpions and be torn to pieces over and over again in this place called hell...cuz that is what they said would happen if I were not "saved". I think I was about 12. Give or take. Did I feel different after the dunking? Nope.

With that said, I have always believed in God. Even when younger than the dunking. I would write God childish notes and tape Dear God letters on the wall. One day I taped a dollar bill from my piggy bank cuz I wanted to give Him a present. Next morning it was still there but I figured he didn't need it. I think I was about 6ish at that time. And today, at 61, I still believe in God. So was I truly baptized? And if not, since it was done because I was afraid of what they told me would happen to me if I wasn't, did it count in the eyes of God? Or is just believing in Him enough?

I don't torture animals. I don't steal. I don't murder. I don't con people. I don't go out of my way to be cruel. I try to do as Jesus taught. I am not perfect. I made and make mistakes. But I give to those less fortunate than I, I share, I rarely ask for something and prefer to give than get. I think I am doing ok. But according to this one or that one, that group or this group, that religion vs another religion...it is all different answers. Which leads me to believe what I believe...that God knows your heart more than you do or anyone else does. And if you die, are a good person, try the best you can, then yes...God will receive you. And hell is not a place of neverending torture and pain. My God would not do that to His children. They are just...absent from His presence. But they have to be REALLY bad to be in that void without his light.

Probably didn't make sense, but if I try to make sense of it all...I'd probably go crazy. Or be crazier than some think I already am.

Don't worry Gracie. I think the idea of a benevolent, merciful God ruling a place of eternal torment and damnation is a load of nonsense. I was baptized as a Catholic at one month old, but I'm sure I would have felt much the same as you if I had been baptized later.

 

[Drake_Roberts]

I have a question.

If someone here were posting from Heaven, how would we know?

.

Because they could get God to post for them and our arguments would all be proven invalid. Every one.

God is too busy to bother with USMB. He would delegate it.

True...

Maybe he would administer his arguments to his typers? Or, maybe God simply never tires and thus just does it all himself.

 

[Drake_Roberts]

Vox, faith without works is dead. ( you are correct in that works is the evidence of faith! ) Faith without enduring unto the end is not going to get us into heaven either. Those that endure until the end? The same shall be saved. That is what Jesus said. Now I have studied the history of some Catholic saints who endured until the end. Savonarolla, John Hus, John of the Cross, Michael Molinos to name a few..... many more were executed for their faith in God. I've also been told of stories where the communists came into a church to execute those who wouldn't deny their faith and all but a handful stayed behind. The communists then locked the doors and said, now lets have church. They were believers who didn't want any false christians to know who they were and expose their identities. I believe in the future we may very well have the opportunity to die for our faith. I do not believe in the rapture as some here do. When the hard times hit we need to be ready.

I remember the story of some russian communists who marched a group of christians out onto a frozen lake and left them there to die. They said, if you deny Christ? You can come in off the ice. They said no. They were ordered go onto the ice, strip down and lay down until they died. The russian soldiers built a campfire at the edge of the lake waiting for them to die. After some time one of the christians came in off the ice and denied his faith and went home. One of the russian soldiers said, I'll take his place, stripped down went out on the ice an layed down and froze to death in the other christians place. I imagine to myself that the one who walked in off the ice and denied his faith was a big talker and very sure of himself that he would be the one to surely go to heaven. He probably believed in the rapture and never considered he would be put in such a predicament.

The truth is those that endure until the end shall be saved. It is best to trust in God, be humble in our faith and not be presuming upon the grace of God. I've never heard of a Christian saying I'm sure I will make it to heaven but I'm not so sure about you. I pray every night God had mercy upon me, forgive me of anything I have said or done that has offended you or anyone else. Show me any hidden thing that is displeasing to you so I can get rid of it. Give me your strength to endure whatever may come. Only God knows the heart of each human being. God is faithful. I believe God. - Jeri

You have no Truth in you because of all the lies you just posted here. Saints aren't sinners called Christians. Not one Catholic saint is a true saint of our Creator's. They were all liars who followed the laws of the Vatican, not the laws of our Creator. This means they were disobedient to God's commandments and worshiped other gods before our invisible Creator.

You sound like Judas Iscariot. You think you know so much, but are just a loud noise.....with no substance. Your words give you away.

Ah, Judas. Everyone is so quick to demonize him. In my humble opinion, he should be among the forefront of the saints.

 

[percysunshine]

Because they could get God to post for them and our arguments would all be proven invalid. Every one.

God is too busy to bother with USMB. He would delegate it.

True...

Maybe he would administer his arguments to his typers? Or, maybe God simply never tires and thus just does it all himself.

God would text an acolyte and say 'take care of this for me'. Then they would post something ...hypothetically anyway.

So how would we know?

 

[Vox]

You've passed judgment on what you haven't read and shown unwillingness that I found something that was already there.

Chuck I do not agree with the concept that faith alone is enough for salvation.
So I just do not want to engage in the fruitless discussion.
I love you as a brother in Christ and I believe we all have our road to salvation.
It does not mean that I have to "convert" you, or vice verse.

Vox, faith without works is dead. ( you are correct in that works is the evidence of faith! ) Faith without enduring unto the end is not going to get us into heaven either. Those that endure until the end? The same shall be saved. That is what Jesus said. Now I have studied the history of some Catholic saints who endured until the end. Savonarolla, John Hus, John of the Cross, Michael Molinos to name a few..... many more were executed for their faith in God. I've also been told of stories where the communists came into a church to execute those who wouldn't deny their faith and all but a handful stayed behind. The communists then locked the doors and said, now lets have church. They were believers who didn't want any false christians to know who they were and expose their identities. I believe in the future we may very well have the opportunity to die for our faith. I do not believe in the rapture as some here do. When the hard times hit we need to be ready.

I remember the story of some russian communists who marched a group of christians out onto a frozen lake and left them there to die. They said, if you deny Christ? You can come in off the ice. They said no. The story is they were ordered go onto the ice, strip down and lay down until they died. The russian soldiers built a campfire at the edge of the lake waiting for them to die. After some time one of the christians came in off the ice and denied his faith and went home. One of the russian soldiers said, I'll take his place, stripped down went out on the ice and layed down and froze to death in the other christians place. I imagine to myself that the one who walked in off the ice and denied his faith was a big talker and very sure of himself that he would be the one to surely go to heaven. He probably believed in the rapture and never considered he would be put in such a predicament.

The truth is those that endure until the end shall be saved. It is best to trust in God, be humble in our faith and not be presuming upon the grace of God. I've never heard of a Christian saying I'm sure I will make it to heaven but I'm not so sure about you. I pray every night God have mercy upon me, forgive me of anything I have said or done that has offended you or anyone else. Show me any hidden thing that is displeasing to you so I can get rid of it. Give me your strength to endure whatever may come. Only God knows the heart of each human being. God is faithful. I believe God. - Jeri

you have put it beautifully. Yep, there are thousands of stories of modern day martyrs in the soviet gulag - both Catholics and Orthodox. probably some others, too, but they are less known, as the other religious groups are less represented throughout that territory.

That is the example of works. Not everyone is called to such an extent, but those are the most beautiful ones.
There were many throughout the whole Eastern bloc who could serve as an example in this combination - both faith and works.

 

[Mertex]

You have no Truth in you because of all the lies you just posted here. Saints aren't sinners called Christians. Not one Catholic saint is a true saint of our Creator's. They were all liars who followed the laws of the Vatican, not the laws of our Creator. This means they were disobedient to God's commandments and worshiped other gods before our invisible Creator.

You sound like Judas Iscariot. You think you know so much, but are just a loud noise.....with no substance. Your words give you away.

Ah, Judas. Everyone is so quick to demonize him. In my humble opinion, he should be among the forefront of the saints.

Really, why is that? Because he betrayed Jesus? Because he was stealing from the treasury? Because he thought Jesus was going to become the ruler then and there and he (Judas) would be sitting pretty, and when it didn't work out, he threw Jesus under the bus?
Because rather than ask forgiveness he took the chicken way out?

Or do you have some other information that we're missing?

 

[Vox]

I was sitting around in church the other day, twiddling my thumbs, listening to my parish's priest talk about good men and getting to heaven when I thought of this.

I know plenty of good, kind atheists (most of them are nicer people than the Catholics I know) and I was wondering about them getting to heaven. Pretend there was a hypothetical atheist named... Michael. Michael donated almost everything he had to the poor, keeping only just enough to survive on. Never did he have anything nice or luxurious or fancy. He had loads of friends because he was kind to everyone. But every day, he denied the existence of God. One sad day, Michael died of, I don't know, heart disease. Would he go to heaven even though he constantly proclaimed that God (and Satan) did not exist?


This is all completely hypothetical, of course.

you can not pretend on something that does not exist

In order to get to heaven giving to the poor is not enough even if one would beleive a non-existent issue of the philantropic atheist existed

I apologize. Giving to the poor is what is most often preached in the Church these days. Tell me, what message does Jesus teach over and over again? Oh yes, giving to the poor and helping those in need. I did not feel like listing all of Michael's good deeds, as it would take forever to write, being as he is hypothetical. Michael is, in theory, about as good a human being as you can get.

.

Except that is definitely not the message and it is not going to bring you salvation alone
One can give to the poor and still not be in the realm of salvation.

Jesus said "The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me." Matthew 26:11.
And that is the truth.

Giving to the poor is not at all important in the big picture.
There are plenty of people who were never giving to the poor ( as they could not) and they are still the Saints.

In regards to your other statement, it is possible to pretend on things that don't exist. Children pretend on the zombie apocalypse, fairy tales, angels, etc. Scientists pretend on advancements that do not exist yet. Hippies pretend on world peace. You pretend on the intelligence of your arguments. There is a certain word for it... imagination.

and what is this blabber about? parading your writing skills? they don't impress me. And they do not prove that your hypothetical example is possible. As the darkness can not be the light.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I have a question.

If someone here were posting from Heaven, how would we know?

.

Some have entertained angels unaware, Percy. You could encounter an angel anywhere. They don't have to post from heaven. Although if it is an angel they are back and forth from the throne room to earth. Imagine what that must be like!

 

[Vox]

The fact that you don't believe what I've said does not prove they are lies.

I don't have to believe that what you say are lies. I KNOW they are lies taught to you by the beast, which is where Christianity got all it's information.

Whatever floats your boat....you don't know anything, perhaps you are one of Satan's demons, trying to destroy what is good. Be gone.

WOW. I have to applaud you

 

[Vox]

You sound like Judas Iscariot. You think you know so much, but are just a loud noise.....with no substance. Your words give you away.

Ah, Judas. Everyone is so quick to demonize him. In my humble opinion, he should be among the forefront of the saints.

Really, why is that? Because he betrayed Jesus? Because he was stealing from the treasury? Because he thought Jesus was going to become the ruler then and there and he (Judas) would be sitting pretty, and when it didn't work out, he threw Jesus under the bus?
Because rather than ask forgiveness he took the chicken way out?

Or do you have some other information that we're missing?

you have not heard the modern day theory that if not of Judas, Jesus Christ would not be able to accomplish His mission.
That is widely circulated amongst some circles.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Chuck I do not agree with the concept that faith alone is enough for salvation.
So I just do not want to engage in the fruitless discussion.
I love you as a brother in Christ and I believe we all have our road to salvation.
It does not mean that I have to "convert" you, or vice verse.

Vox, faith without works is dead. ( you are correct in that works is the evidence of faith! ) Faith without enduring unto the end is not going to get us into heaven either. Those that endure until the end? The same shall be saved. That is what Jesus said. Now I have studied the history of some Catholic saints who endured until the end. Savonarolla, John Hus, John of the Cross, Michael Molinos to name a few..... many more were executed for their faith in God. I've also been told of stories where the communists came into a church to execute those who wouldn't deny their faith and all but a handful stayed behind. The communists then locked the doors and said, now lets have church. They were believers who didn't want any false christians to know who they were and expose their identities. I believe in the future we may very well have the opportunity to die for our faith. I do not believe in the rapture as some here do. When the hard times hit we need to be ready.

I remember the story of some russian communists who marched a group of christians out onto a frozen lake and left them there to die. They said, if you deny Christ? You can come in off the ice. They said no. The story is they were ordered go onto the ice, strip down and lay down until they died. The russian soldiers built a campfire at the edge of the lake waiting for them to die. After some time one of the christians came in off the ice and denied his faith and went home. One of the russian soldiers said, I'll take his place, stripped down went out on the ice and layed down and froze to death in the other christians place. I imagine to myself that the one who walked in off the ice and denied his faith was a big talker and very sure of himself that he would be the one to surely go to heaven. He probably believed in the rapture and never considered he would be put in such a predicament.

The truth is those that endure until the end shall be saved. It is best to trust in God, be humble in our faith and not be presuming upon the grace of God. I've never heard of a Christian saying I'm sure I will make it to heaven but I'm not so sure about you. I pray every night God have mercy upon me, forgive me of anything I have said or done that has offended you or anyone else. Show me any hidden thing that is displeasing to you so I can get rid of it. Give me your strength to endure whatever may come. Only God knows the heart of each human being. God is faithful. I believe God. - Jeri

you have put it beautifully. Yep, there are thousands of stories of modern day martyrs in the soviet gulag - both Catholics and Orthodox. probably some others, too, but they are less known, as the other religious groups are less represented throughout that territory.

That is the example of works. Not everyone is called to such an extent, but those are the most beautiful ones.
There were many throughout the whole Eastern bloc who could serve as an example in this combination - both faith and works.

Thanks, Vox! I know of many stories of Catholics who refused to deny their faith in Christ, priests and nuns held in communist prisons who refused to blaspheme the eucharist or do some blasphemous act for the communists. Richard Wurmbrand gave many accounts of such people in his book Marx and Satan. Which I read and have given away to a friend so they can read it. Otherwise I would quote some stories here. He was held in Communist prisons and tortured for Christ for 17 years and he met people of many different faiths, Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, Pentacostal, Methodist....... I am quite sure if he were here he would explain the difference in believing one has faith and having one's faith tested to know one has faith. These are two completely different things and as I recall? None of them denied Christ. Not one that I can recall. It seems to be the assumption among the evangelical believers that we will not be here for any such sufferings because as Americans we are special and would be raptured before we were ever tortured for Christ by Communists. As the days draw nearer to Communist rule inside the USA I believe that anything is possible and my prayer is we are all ready for "anything." It feels like the beginnings of Matthew 24 already to me.

p.s. we personally know someone in America who is traveling to a communist nation and sharing the Gospel and she said they came for her after hearing about her and when they entered the place where she was they could not see her. ( we have never communicated with this person by internet ) She said she was standing in plain view of the communists hunting for her and God had hidden her so these men could not find her. They left and she knew God had saved her life. She told my husband this is what we are headed for here. God will protect us as we keep our faith in him. Even using such miracles to do it.