Honestly I like Bernie; Students should study for free

[Grace Is Stoked]

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Of course you have talked about making or forcing people to do things. How do you believe taxes are collected? How do you plan to pay for your pie-in-the-sky schemes?

Yes ultimately in the system that I would like to see implemented one day in the distant future it would involve increased taxation both direct taxation and indirect. It would utilize an increased sales tax, increased income tax, increased taxes on the largest sectors such as oil and natural gas companies, additional taxes on various successes yielded from our capitalist system such as increased taxes on corporations and businesses, increased taxes based on income bracket (all brackets), increased taxes on stock market transactions, and so on.

Ultimately if everybody in the country will benefit from the new system then all should contribute for the common good and for the good of the many. The gap between rich and poor would decrease and you'd have a much larger middle class that is less individualistic and more collective in nature through this shared experience where everybody has equal access.

This is not a communistic system. I'm not calling for the government to control corporations, the means of production, or anything like that. Our capitalistic system would still be functional and valid and would still serve as the primary engine for funding. The success of the new system would be dependent on the success of capitalism making the two dependent on each other.

At the point you say, "Yes, it will involve increasing your taxes", you really need to just stop talking. You will never justify to people why they should be inconvenienced for your daydreams.

yes that is correct I will never be able to justify to most Americans that they should have their taxes increased to pay for certain services that all Americans would contribute to and receive equally. That conversation did happen in a number of countries already where the culture is more open to that sort of system and use of capitalism and taxation, for example Norway where it’s not a daydream, but as I said and have been saying it would take a large scale cultural change for that to happen here in the US.

 

[Cecilie1200]

No, what you laid out was your own lack of understanding about how the system works now, and how reality would affect your pie-in-the-sky "it would be so wonderful if I could have what I want at someone else's expense" plans.

Please understand that, while YOU have the intellect of an insect, humans in general are NOT an ant colony. We aren't a collective, and we don't function as a collective, and your adult life is of much less importance to me than your extreme self-absorption assumes it is. And frankly, the more you talk, the less I think you could ever have something valuable to contribute to society, no matter how much time we paid for you to spend in school "educating" yourself.

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Maybe it's time you come out of your self-flattering utopian dreams and recognize that they have real-world consequences, and the real people whose real lives would bear those consequences don't appreciate it, and REALLY don't appreciate being told that THEY are the bad guys for disagreeing.

Ok but I’m also talking about real people, and I haven’t claimed that people who disagree with me are bad. I haven’t called anybody bad actually. I’ve been comparing systems and giving my own personal opinion on my own personal experiences with both systems. I’ve even said that I wouldn’t even want to force a new system in this country without a significant voluntary culture change happening since that’s the only real way it would potentially succeed and I’ve also said that no system is perfect or utopian. Please read my previous response again and you will see that we probably agree on some things.

No, honey, you really aren't talking about real people. You're talking about some generalized, amorphous, apocryphal group. Real people would be my children, to whom I gave birth and from whom you wish to take money to spend on your unnamed, faceless collective.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Of course you have talked about making or forcing people to do things. How do you believe taxes are collected? How do you plan to pay for your pie-in-the-sky schemes?

Yes ultimately in the system that I would like to see implemented one day in the distant future it would involve increased taxation both direct taxation and indirect. It would utilize an increased sales tax, increased income tax, increased taxes on the largest sectors such as oil and natural gas companies, additional taxes on various successes yielded from our capitalist system such as increased taxes on corporations and businesses, increased taxes based on income bracket (all brackets), increased taxes on stock market transactions, and so on.

Ultimately if everybody in the country will benefit from the new system then all should contribute for the common good and for the good of the many. The gap between rich and poor would decrease and you'd have a much larger middle class that is less individualistic and more collective in nature through this shared experience where everybody has equal access.

This is not a communistic system. I'm not calling for the government to control corporations, the means of production, or anything like that. Our capitalistic system would still be functional and valid and would still serve as the primary engine for funding. The success of the new system would be dependent on the success of capitalism making the two dependent on each other.

At the point you say, "Yes, it will involve increasing your taxes", you really need to just stop talking. You will never justify to people why they should be inconvenienced for your daydreams.

yes that is correct I will never be able to justify to most Americans that they should have their taxes increased to pay for certain services that all Americans would contribute to and receive equally. That conversation did happen in a number of countries already where the culture is more open to that sort of system and use of capitalism and taxation, for example Norway where it’s not a daydream, but as I said and have been saying it would take a large scale cultural change for that to happen here in the US.

Again, you could and should have just stopped talking at "I will never be able to justify raising taxes." Anything else is a lame attempt to make others feel guilty for being "greedy" enough to want to keep what they earn, without acknowledging that the REAL greed is you wanting to spend what you didn't earn.

 

[Andylusion]

Students SHOULD study. NOT be there just for indoctrination.

Who is indoctrinating them?

Left-wing teachers and 'professors' who claim to believe in science, but then claim you can be whatever you claim to be, and that XX and XY chromosomes do not mean that gender is binary.

 

[Slade3200]

Students SHOULD study. NOT be there just for indoctrination.

Who is indoctrinating them?

Left-wing teachers and 'professors' who claim to believe in science, but then claim you can be whatever you claim to be, and that XX and XY chromosomes do not mean that gender is binary.

Haha, So science teachers and bio class are teaching about gender issues? Is that what you think is happening?

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Maybe it's time you come out of your self-flattering utopian dreams and recognize that they have real-world consequences, and the real people whose real lives would bear those consequences don't appreciate it, and REALLY don't appreciate being told that THEY are the bad guys for disagreeing.

Ok but I’m also talking about real people, and I haven’t claimed that people who disagree with me are bad. I haven’t called anybody bad actually. I’ve been comparing systems and giving my own personal opinion on my own personal experiences with both systems. I’ve even said that I wouldn’t even want to force a new system in this country without a significant voluntary culture change happening since that’s the only real way it would potentially succeed and I’ve also said that no system is perfect or utopian. Please read my previous response again and you will see that we probably agree on some things.

No, honey, you really aren't talking about real people. You're talking about some generalized, amorphous, apocryphal group. Real people would be my children, to whom I gave birth and from whom you wish to take money to spend on your unnamed, faceless collective.

There are over five million real people living in Norway right now including relatives of mine which includes one of my grandparents and my dad's sister and her family. They have families of their own which includes children. Money isn't taken from them and never seen again the money goes towards paying for services that go back to the children and back to adults as well. From healthcare to education to youth sports and recreation, to cultural and social facilities, and so on they get back what they put in but what they get back is accessible to everyone equally. They aren't a faceless collective they are there right now living their lives same as you and I. If I were to take that system and apply it here it would take a lot of things to happen, many of those i've laid out already several times on here like increased taxation, the usage of capitalism to help fund social programs, and most importantly culture change which is the biggest hurdle. As i've said the system there isn't perfect, no system is perfect including the US, but that doesn't mean you can't find solutions to our issues here by looking abroad, you can, and vice versa.

 

[Andylusion]

Students SHOULD study. NOT be there just for indoctrination.

Who is indoctrinating them?

Left-wing teachers and 'professors' who claim to believe in science, but then claim you can be whatever you claim to be, and that XX and XY chromosomes do not mean that gender is binary.

Haha, So science teachers and bio class are teaching about gender issues? Is that what you think is happening?

Are you suggesting that teachers in any other class, are not required to be scientific? Doesn't that make the case that we should also teach Biblical 6-days of creation?

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Of course you have talked about making or forcing people to do things. How do you believe taxes are collected? How do you plan to pay for your pie-in-the-sky schemes?

Yes ultimately in the system that I would like to see implemented one day in the distant future it would involve increased taxation both direct taxation and indirect. It would utilize an increased sales tax, increased income tax, increased taxes on the largest sectors such as oil and natural gas companies, additional taxes on various successes yielded from our capitalist system such as increased taxes on corporations and businesses, increased taxes based on income bracket (all brackets), increased taxes on stock market transactions, and so on.

Ultimately if everybody in the country will benefit from the new system then all should contribute for the common good and for the good of the many. The gap between rich and poor would decrease and you'd have a much larger middle class that is less individualistic and more collective in nature through this shared experience where everybody has equal access.

This is not a communistic system. I'm not calling for the government to control corporations, the means of production, or anything like that. Our capitalistic system would still be functional and valid and would still serve as the primary engine for funding. The success of the new system would be dependent on the success of capitalism making the two dependent on each other.

At the point you say, "Yes, it will involve increasing your taxes", you really need to just stop talking. You will never justify to people why they should be inconvenienced for your daydreams.

yes that is correct I will never be able to justify to most Americans that they should have their taxes increased to pay for certain services that all Americans would contribute to and receive equally. That conversation did happen in a number of countries already where the culture is more open to that sort of system and use of capitalism and taxation, for example Norway where it’s not a daydream, but as I said and have been saying it would take a large scale cultural change for that to happen here in the US.

Again, you could and should have just stopped talking at "I will never be able to justify raising taxes." Anything else is a lame attempt to make others feel guilty for being "greedy" enough to want to keep what they earn, without acknowledging that the REAL greed is you wanting to spend what you didn't earn.

It's really not about guilt or greed in my opinion, but that is what I mean by the culture being a huge hurdle here. I'm not calling for money to be taken from you for me to then use to buy a new car or some fun luxury item or to fund some elective surgery like a tummy tuck. That's not what this is about and that's not what Norway does either. You see this as theft, as greed, as shaming. I see the system in Norway as egalitarian, as ethical, as cooperative. You were raised one way and I was raised another, You were raised with the American mindset and I was raised with the Norwegian mindset. That's the divide, that's the crutch. That's why, like I said, it wouldn't work here without major voluntary change. It's why I am not voting for people like Bernie Sanders because he is not advocating what I am advocating for and he is trying to force something that is not ready to happen, plus it's not the same system that he wants either.

 

[hadit]

I think Im voting for Bernie. Students shouldn’t have to worry about debt and loans while studying to fix our broken society. These loans are immoral and need to be forgiven.

Also anyone working full time deserves a comfortable $15/hour wage and free medical care.

Thats all

investing in education is investing in our future...

For the USA to continue to be a GREAT NATION we need the best education for our children....AVAILABLE at AFFORDABLE COSTS.

I have no idea why conservatives want America to fail because of substandard education.

I think it makes them traitors.

If you believe that better education relies solely on spending more money, you're smoking something. We already spend more than most countries, with less results, and spending more is not proven to result in better education. So, if your first reaction is to raise taxes, forget it.

 

[Andylusion]

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Maybe it's time you come out of your self-flattering utopian dreams and recognize that they have real-world consequences, and the real people whose real lives would bear those consequences don't appreciate it, and REALLY don't appreciate being told that THEY are the bad guys for disagreeing.

Ok but I’m also talking about real people, and I haven’t claimed that people who disagree with me are bad. I haven’t called anybody bad actually. I’ve been comparing systems and giving my own personal opinion on my own personal experiences with both systems. I’ve even said that I wouldn’t even want to force a new system in this country without a significant voluntary culture change happening since that’s the only real way it would potentially succeed and I’ve also said that no system is perfect or utopian. Please read my previous response again and you will see that we probably agree on some things.

No, honey, you really aren't talking about real people. You're talking about some generalized, amorphous, apocryphal group. Real people would be my children, to whom I gave birth and from whom you wish to take money to spend on your unnamed, faceless collective.

There are over five million real people living in Norway right now including relatives of mine which includes one of my grandparents and my dad's sister and her family. They have families of their own which includes children. Money isn't taken from them and never seen again the money goes towards paying for services that go back to the children and back to adults as well. From healthcare to education to youth sports and recreation, to cultural and social facilities, and so on they get back what they put in but what they get back is accessible to everyone equally. They aren't a faceless collective they are there right now living their lives same as you and I. If I were to take that system and apply it here it would take a lot of things to happen, many of those i've laid out already several times on here like increased taxation, the usage of capitalism to help fund social programs, and most importantly culture change which is the biggest hurdle. As i've said the system there isn't perfect, no system is perfect including the US, but that doesn't mean you can't find solutions to our issues here by looking abroad, you can, and vice versa.

Right, and that system will not work here. The idea that you can take a system that works in Norway's extremely homogeneous society, in a population of 5 Million, and you are going to apply that system to a extremely diverse, and internally conflicted country like the US, with 310 Million people....

It's not going to work.

Moreover, I've read that many of the wealthy in Norway, leave the country for health care, while the poor and middle class are left on waiting lists for months at a time.

That doesn't sound like equal access, unless you mean equally bad for the non-rich.

 

[Slade3200]

Students SHOULD study. NOT be there just for indoctrination.

Who is indoctrinating them?

Left-wing teachers and 'professors' who claim to believe in science, but then claim you can be whatever you claim to be, and that XX and XY chromosomes do not mean that gender is binary.

Haha, So science teachers and bio class are teaching about gender issues? Is that what you think is happening?

Are you suggesting that teachers in any other class, are not required to be scientific? Doesn't that make the case that we should also teach Biblical 6-days of creation?

I’m just asking which teachers in which classes are conducting this indoctrination? Be specific

 

[DrLove]

I think Im voting for Bernie. Students shouldn’t have to worry about debt and loans while studying to fix our broken society. These loans are immoral and need to be forgiven.

Also anyone working full time deserves a comfortable $15/hour wage and free medical care.

Thats all

Debt forgiveness ala Bernie?- FUCK no
Refinance at lower rates? - FUCK yes
Free 2 year community college or trade school??? - HELL yes!

 

[basquebromance]

Linsey Davis: "Joe Biden has said flat-out Bernie Sanders could not beat Donald Trump. Do you agree?" Hillary Clinton: "I don't think he'd be our strongest nominee, no."

"Tune in to ABC News Live at 7 pm for more"

 

[Andylusion]

Students SHOULD study. NOT be there just for indoctrination.

Who is indoctrinating them?

Left-wing teachers and 'professors' who claim to believe in science, but then claim you can be whatever you claim to be, and that XX and XY chromosomes do not mean that gender is binary.

Haha, So science teachers and bio class are teaching about gender issues? Is that what you think is happening?

Are you suggesting that teachers in any other class, are not required to be scientific? Doesn't that make the case that we should also teach Biblical 6-days of creation?

I’m just asking which teachers in which classes are conducting this indoctrination? Be specific

Ms., Mr., or Mx.? Nonbinary teachers embrace gender-neutral honorific

Luebbert is a nonbinary, 9th grade English teacher in a Philadelphia public school. Luebbert uses they/them pronouns and has their students address them with honorific Mx. — a gender-neutral alternative to the gendered Mr., Ms., Miss and Mrs. that most of us grew up using for our teachers.
​

If you really need more examples, I can get them.

 

[Slade3200]

Who is indoctrinating them?

Left-wing teachers and 'professors' who claim to believe in science, but then claim you can be whatever you claim to be, and that XX and XY chromosomes do not mean that gender is binary.

Haha, So science teachers and bio class are teaching about gender issues? Is that what you think is happening?

Are you suggesting that teachers in any other class, are not required to be scientific? Doesn't that make the case that we should also teach Biblical 6-days of creation?

I’m just asking which teachers in which classes are conducting this indoctrination? Be specific

Ms., Mr., or Mx.? Nonbinary teachers embrace gender-neutral honorific

Luebbert is a nonbinary, 9th grade English teacher in a Philadelphia public school. Luebbert uses they/them pronouns and has their students address them with honorific Mx. — a gender-neutral alternative to the gendered Mr., Ms., Miss and Mrs. that most of us grew up using for our teachers.
​

If you really need more examples, I can get them.

Examples of what?! That’s a person identifying and living they way they want to live. It’s not teaching and indoctrinating. Kids are going to grow up and be surrounded by a diversity of people in public, in travel, in the workplace. Just because they are exposed doesn’t mean they are being indoctrinated. Just as a Muslim teacher doesn’t automatically imply the kids are being indoctrinated on Islam.

Any other brain buster examples you’d like to share?

 

[Andylusion]

Left-wing teachers and 'professors' who claim to believe in science, but then claim you can be whatever you claim to be, and that XX and XY chromosomes do not mean that gender is binary.

Haha, So science teachers and bio class are teaching about gender issues? Is that what you think is happening?

Are you suggesting that teachers in any other class, are not required to be scientific? Doesn't that make the case that we should also teach Biblical 6-days of creation?

I’m just asking which teachers in which classes are conducting this indoctrination? Be specific

Ms., Mr., or Mx.? Nonbinary teachers embrace gender-neutral honorific

Luebbert is a nonbinary, 9th grade English teacher in a Philadelphia public school. Luebbert uses they/them pronouns and has their students address them with honorific Mx. — a gender-neutral alternative to the gendered Mr., Ms., Miss and Mrs. that most of us grew up using for our teachers.
​

If you really need more examples, I can get them.

Examples of what?! That’s a person identifying and living they way they want to live. It’s not teaching and indoctrinating. Kids are going to grow up and be surrounded by a diversity of people in public, in travel, in the workplace. Just because they are exposed doesn’t mean they are being indoctrinated. Just as a Muslim teacher doesn’t automatically imply the kids are being indoctrinated on Islam.

Any other brain buster examples you’d like to share?

So you are justifying this. That just makes you part of the anti-science community.

 

[bripat9643]

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Maybe it's time you come out of your self-flattering utopian dreams and recognize that they have real-world consequences, and the real people whose real lives would bear those consequences don't appreciate it, and REALLY don't appreciate being told that THEY are the bad guys for disagreeing.

Ok but I’m also talking about real people, and I haven’t claimed that people who disagree with me are bad. I haven’t called anybody bad actually. I’ve been comparing systems and giving my own personal opinion on my own personal experiences with both systems. I’ve even said that I wouldn’t even want to force a new system in this country without a significant voluntary culture change happening since that’s the only real way it would potentially succeed and I’ve also said that no system is perfect or utopian. Please read my previous response again and you will see that we probably agree on some things.

No, honey, you really aren't talking about real people. You're talking about some generalized, amorphous, apocryphal group. Real people would be my children, to whom I gave birth and from whom you wish to take money to spend on your unnamed, faceless collective.

There are over five million real people living in Norway right now including relatives of mine which includes one of my grandparents and my dad's sister and her family. They have families of their own which includes children. Money isn't taken from them and never seen again the money goes towards paying for services that go back to the children and back to adults as well. From healthcare to education to youth sports and recreation, to cultural and social facilities, and so on they get back what they put in but what they get back is accessible to everyone equally. They aren't a faceless collective they are there right now living their lives same as you and I. If I were to take that system and apply it here it would take a lot of things to happen, many of those i've laid out already several times on here like increased taxation, the usage of capitalism to help fund social programs, and most importantly culture change which is the biggest hurdle. As i've said the system there isn't perfect, no system is perfect including the US, but that doesn't mean you can't find solutions to our issues here by looking abroad, you can, and vice versa.

Right, and that system will not work here. The idea that you can take a system that works in Norway's extremely homogeneous society, in a population of 5 Million, and you are going to apply that system to a extremely diverse, and internally conflicted country like the US, with 310 Million people....

It's not going to work.

Moreover, I've read that many of the wealthy in Norway, leave the country for health care, while the poor and middle class are left on waiting lists for months at a time.

That doesn't sound like equal access, unless you mean equally bad for the non-rich.

It actually doesn't work there, but people like Grace will never admit it. If Norwegians could live here for a couple of years at a salary that American Norwegians make, they would definitely prefer to live here. The only reason they don't is because of years of brainwashing.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Maybe it's time you come out of your self-flattering utopian dreams and recognize that they have real-world consequences, and the real people whose real lives would bear those consequences don't appreciate it, and REALLY don't appreciate being told that THEY are the bad guys for disagreeing.

Ok but I’m also talking about real people, and I haven’t claimed that people who disagree with me are bad. I haven’t called anybody bad actually. I’ve been comparing systems and giving my own personal opinion on my own personal experiences with both systems. I’ve even said that I wouldn’t even want to force a new system in this country without a significant voluntary culture change happening since that’s the only real way it would potentially succeed and I’ve also said that no system is perfect or utopian. Please read my previous response again and you will see that we probably agree on some things.

No, honey, you really aren't talking about real people. You're talking about some generalized, amorphous, apocryphal group. Real people would be my children, to whom I gave birth and from whom you wish to take money to spend on your unnamed, faceless collective.

There are over five million real people living in Norway right now including relatives of mine which includes one of my grandparents and my dad's sister and her family. They have families of their own which includes children. Money isn't taken from them and never seen again the money goes towards paying for services that go back to the children and back to adults as well. From healthcare to education to youth sports and recreation, to cultural and social facilities, and so on they get back what they put in but what they get back is accessible to everyone equally. They aren't a faceless collective they are there right now living their lives same as you and I. If I were to take that system and apply it here it would take a lot of things to happen, many of those i've laid out already several times on here like increased taxation, the usage of capitalism to help fund social programs, and most importantly culture change which is the biggest hurdle. As i've said the system there isn't perfect, no system is perfect including the US, but that doesn't mean you can't find solutions to our issues here by looking abroad, you can, and vice versa.

Right, and that system will not work here. The idea that you can take a system that works in Norway's extremely homogeneous society, in a population of 5 Million, and you are going to apply that system to a extremely diverse, and internally conflicted country like the US, with 310 Million people....

It's not going to work.

Moreover, I've read that many of the wealthy in Norway, leave the country for health care, while the poor and middle class are left on waiting lists for months at a time.

That doesn't sound like equal access, unless you mean equally bad for the non-rich.

I mentioned that the system would not work here without major changes, so we agree on that. You mentioned leaving the country for healthcare and the reason you gave is a little misleading in my opinion. Yes some people will leave the country to get better healthcare but that's typically not because of waiting lists or because you are wealthy. Typically people leave Norway for other countries like Germany and France because of the need for highly specialized care that isn't as readily available in smaller nations like Norway as they are in bigger countries like Germany for example or because that particular treatment may not be covered by or available in Norway. Norwegians can also get medical care in other parts of Europe as part of the healthcare program and so going outside of Norway isn't uncommon or a reflection of the system in Norway as a whole. Yes the waits for basic care with your general practitioner in your area can be long but not for emergency or urgent care at a hospital. And yes poverty exists in all countries in all systems. It's unfortunate and needs to be focused on. In Norway the largest population that lives in poverty are often immigrants.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

It actually doesn't work there, but people like Grace will never admit it. If Norwegians could live here for a couple of years at a salary that American Norwegians make, they would definitely prefer to live here. The only reason they don't is because of years of brainwashing.

It works well but like all systems it has flaws. We moved to the US not because my parents would make more money but because my mom was born and raised here and wanted to move back to the US because at the time my grandmother passed away and she wanted to be home with her dad and family. We've been living here ever since. You couldn't hold dual citizenship in Norway up until literally this year and so we were here to stay.

 

[Andylusion]

Maybe it's time you come out of your self-flattering utopian dreams and recognize that they have real-world consequences, and the real people whose real lives would bear those consequences don't appreciate it, and REALLY don't appreciate being told that THEY are the bad guys for disagreeing.

Ok but I’m also talking about real people, and I haven’t claimed that people who disagree with me are bad. I haven’t called anybody bad actually. I’ve been comparing systems and giving my own personal opinion on my own personal experiences with both systems. I’ve even said that I wouldn’t even want to force a new system in this country without a significant voluntary culture change happening since that’s the only real way it would potentially succeed and I’ve also said that no system is perfect or utopian. Please read my previous response again and you will see that we probably agree on some things.

No, honey, you really aren't talking about real people. You're talking about some generalized, amorphous, apocryphal group. Real people would be my children, to whom I gave birth and from whom you wish to take money to spend on your unnamed, faceless collective.

There are over five million real people living in Norway right now including relatives of mine which includes one of my grandparents and my dad's sister and her family. They have families of their own which includes children. Money isn't taken from them and never seen again the money goes towards paying for services that go back to the children and back to adults as well. From healthcare to education to youth sports and recreation, to cultural and social facilities, and so on they get back what they put in but what they get back is accessible to everyone equally. They aren't a faceless collective they are there right now living their lives same as you and I. If I were to take that system and apply it here it would take a lot of things to happen, many of those i've laid out already several times on here like increased taxation, the usage of capitalism to help fund social programs, and most importantly culture change which is the biggest hurdle. As i've said the system there isn't perfect, no system is perfect including the US, but that doesn't mean you can't find solutions to our issues here by looking abroad, you can, and vice versa.

Right, and that system will not work here. The idea that you can take a system that works in Norway's extremely homogeneous society, in a population of 5 Million, and you are going to apply that system to a extremely diverse, and internally conflicted country like the US, with 310 Million people....

It's not going to work.

Moreover, I've read that many of the wealthy in Norway, leave the country for health care, while the poor and middle class are left on waiting lists for months at a time.

That doesn't sound like equal access, unless you mean equally bad for the non-rich.

It actually doesn't work there, but people like Grace will never admit it. If Norwegians could live here for a couple of years at a salary that American Norwegians make, they would definitely prefer to live here. The only reason they don't is because of years of brainwashing.

That is also true. Every time I meet someone from a Nordic country, they are earn much more money here, than they did there. If you ask them which they prefer.... their actions contradict their statements.

"It's much better over there, because they have free health care"

And then I'll ask, then why did you come here, and why don't you go back?

"Well I earn a lot more here, and I prefer the standard of living....." and then they go on to explain why it is somehow still better over there, but they won't go back.

I can think of about 4 different people who moved here from Europe, and specifically Sweden and Norway, that all won't go back... no.... but it's better there because of free health care.

What they want, and they won't admit it... is they want the lifestyle that the US affords them, but they want the socialism of free stuff that they left to get the lifestyle they want.

The reality is, the two are connected. You can't both have a US style of living, and a Nordic style health care. You have to pay the bill. Something has to be sacrificed to have government provide a portion of what they confiscated from you, back to you.