Student Loan Bail Out Highlights the Problem With How America Values Education

[candycorn]

He will have to learn a skill in order to keep his job.

Not necessarily true. I knew guys back in Houston who worked for Charlies Plumbing over on Specer Highway. They had been plumbers assistants for years. They made good money, it was simple work, but they did little more than hand the certified craftsman tools, dig trenches, clean up the scenes etc...

If he wants to be more than a grunt hammer swinger he will learn how to do more.

Precisely. Which is why the plan I suggested above provides an Avenue to do just that. There is nothing wrong with what you're suggesting BTW... but what you're suggesting is going to be fragmented and not available to anyone who wants to pursue the vocation.

And tell me who is it better to learn from the guy who builds 12 houses a year of some hack in a classroom who never built a house?

Depends. Tell me what is better, a house fully built up to code or a house built on the cheap by a guy who knows how to cut corners and will teach his employees the same methods.

Also, and this is where your MAGA shows, it's not an all or nothing proposition. The college I went to had students who were welding during their first week in classs. It's not all theory as you're suggesting it is.

 

[candycorn]

My proposal is a seamless transition from high school to college – no applications completed, no searching for grants or loans, no concerns about tuition; you just show up at college the next semester.

Of course, one would attend the nearest public college or university; if you live in a major metropolitan area, you’ll likely have more options. If you live in Idaho, likely not.

But everyone gets to go to college who wants to.

And if you have the desire and means to go to a private university, fine – you’re at liberty to do so.

And who pays for the college the next semester?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I've mentioned this a few times here and there in different iterations but since President Biden has announced that some student loans are being forgiven, it seems appropriate to bring it up again.

Our current model of going to school, then going to college, and then getting a job has served America very well. The number of patents, the number of Nobel Prize winners, the GDP, etc... all tell the tale. The system works. It even works in areas that put such little value on education that being educated is seen as some sort of weakness; it's no coincidence that these places are also the most impoverished in the nation.

What isn't working so well is the way America thinks about education and leaves it up to the individuals to figure out how to get one. It's brazenly stupid on a number of levels. Chief amongst these are:

• If you don't have parents who encourage education, you're less likely to value it yourself.
• Having an educated workforce isn't an option for competitiveness...it is mandatory
• A college diploma is a great goal for some. For others, it shouldn't be forced upon them as we have done in many areas
• I'll add this one in...Education for the sake of education, in some cases, should be stressed. Studying history makes you a more interesting person even if your vocation or career is not dependent on knowing about the Lend/Lease program or what Magellan did.

So what I think we should do is to take the Social Security system--another proven winner of a program--and flip it on it's head to where you get the benefits at the age of 18 (or 28, or 38, or 48) and pay for it later during your work life. You pay into Social Security during your work life and get the benefits when you retire. In the plan I'm referencing, you get the benefits and pay back the "loan" through your earnings in the same way you pre-pay for social security...payroll deduction.

Who Qualifies?
When you've reached your 16th birthday, you can get student aid if you want. No qualifying. You don't have to take it.

How much can you get?
But it is there for you. Lets say you're in zip code 85002. The amount of aid you can get is the average semester hour of up to ten of the closest state-supported colleges or universities there are. So at 85002, you have Maricopa County Comm College, Arizona State, City College of Phoenix (if there still is one), Wesstern New Mexico State, South West Colorado State, etc... Set a radius from your residence of about 250-500 miles or so. The purpose is to get an average semester hour cost. So lets just say it's $500 a semester hour--just for the ease of math. The federal government, instead of asking you to take out a loan or try to qualify for grants or whatever, puts 60 semester hours into a bank for which only they have access. $500 X 60 = $30,000. Nobody is giving anyone $30,000 in cash. This is only used for education related expenses paid out by Uncle Sam itself. Chase, Wells Fargo, etc... have no role to play. Neither does the student really. They just get semester hours paid for.

How is it paid back?
Repayment is done through payroll deduction over your work life. You can pay it back sooner if you want. The payback terms are generous--over 30 years or so. So if you get 26 paychecks in a year and you've taken $30K, you will pay back $1,000 a year. Divide that by 26 paychecks and you will pay back $38.47 a paycheck. Add some interest and round it up to $40 or so. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. Older borrowers would have a slightly accelerated payback period or course.

How Can It be Used?
Here is where the current system really sucks from what I can see. You're asking a kid who is 18 to take on $60,000 in debt with no real plan to pay it back. Maybe they decide they don't want to be a nurse or think teaching is their goal in life only to find they don't like teaching. Did you know what you wanted to do for the rest of your life at 18? Me neither.

Just some examples:

A 16 y/o who doesn't want to go to college. She wants to become a beautician. If there is a certificate to becoming a beautician at a local junior college, the government states that you're going to have to go to Maricopa County Junior College instead of DeVry. Sorry. If there isn't a beautician course there, she can go to DeVry.

A 50 y/o mechanic wants to open his own shop. He wants to take courses in business management. He can utilize the funds to take those courses.

A conventional welder wants to expand his craft to become an underwater welder. He can take courses to do so free of charge.

An 18 y/o who graduates High School and wants to go to a 4 year college out of state--Lets say Ohio State. She can take her $30,000 and apply it for the first _________ number of classes at Ohio State. It may pay for one year. The rest is on her through student loans, grants, work study, etc...

A middle-management night auditor at a nationally accredited hospital would like to take courses on learning to play a harp. She can do that but she has to realize that the funding will be taken out of her future paychecks whether or not she makes a cent playing the harp or not.

=====

The point is to get as many college educated persons into the workforce as possible. It isn't a matter of "it would be nice to have an educated work force"...it is a necessity. Hopefully it will lead to more content providers (labor being their content). Those are the true drivers of the economy. Content consumption is a multi billion dollar industry as well and more income in the pockets of average Americans via increased productivity, increased wages, and some entrepreneurial spirit will allow for that as well. We'll still have some students who are in debt...but this will flatten that curve as well.

You left out the part where failing students are allowed to continue to receive grants after grants and additional loans - despite the fact they are not going to even come close to graduating.
You also left out the part where America puts race above ability. There are "black colleges" in this country that have as low as 7% 4 year graduation rates, with over 90% of the student population receiving grants. Why??
Why is a school that fails so miserably, repeatedly, receiving tax payer dollars over and over and over despite the fact that over 90% of the students that enroll as freshman - never graduate.

 

[candycorn]

You left out the part where failing students are allowed to continue to receive grants after grants and additional loans - despite the fact they are not going to even come close to graduating.

There are no grants. There are no loans. So yeah, I guess I left it out.

You also left out the part where America puts race above ability. There are "black colleges" in this country that have as low as 7% 4 year graduation rates, with over 90% of the student population receiving grants. Why??

That is a different topic all together. But every American with a SSN would be able to get the equivalent of 60 hours of college paid for ahead of time and pay it back over their working career...regardless of race.

Why is a school that fails so miserably, repeatedly, receiving tax payer dollars over and over and over despite the fact that over 90% of the students that enroll as freshman - never graduate.

What school are you talking about where 90% never graduate?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

What school are you talking about where 90% never graduate?

Seriously??
There are colleges that STILL RECEIVE TAX PAYER FUNDS that could only hope to have graduation rates as high as 7%.

Colleges with the Lowest Graduation Rate in the United States

Find the lowest graduation rate colleges in the United States ranked and explore detailed college rating and profiles.

www.collegesimply.com

 

[Blues Man]

Not necessarily true. I knew guys back in Houston who worked for Charlies Plumbing over on Specer Highway. They had been plumbers assistants for years. They made good money, it was simple work, but they did little more than hand the certified craftsman tools, dig trenches, clean up the scenes etc...

Precisely. Which is why the plan I suggested above provides an Avenue to do just that. There is nothing wrong with what you're suggesting BTW... but what you're suggesting is going to be fragmented and not available to anyone who wants to pursue the vocation.

Depends. Tell me what is better, a house fully built up to code or a house built on the cheap by a guy who knows how to cut corners and will teach his employees the same methods.

Also, and this is where your MAGA shows, it's not an all or nothing proposition. The college I went to had students who were welding during their first week in classs. It's not all theory as you're suggesting it is.

So then they should have used the skills they learned to get work with another plumber who would teach them more.

And this is where your 2 dimensional thinking shows because you have to put everything into just 2 different pigeonholes so you can make sense of the world.

I didn't vote for Trump I think he's a fucking idiot. I haven't voted for any member of the corrupt duopoly in 20 years.

And learning on the job is available to ANYONE who wants to work and learn a trade. No need to pay for classes.

Look I started a business when I was 20. I learned how to do basic carpentry and turned that into a business where I started doing basic stuff for people who owned rental units. Then I started flipping houses then I started building houses. I took a couple classes here and there later on but none were needed to get started


And once again you show your utter ignorance of the trades.

Anyone who builds a house MUST get a permit from the town and MUST pass inspections at every stage of the build. If you try to build a house without a permit you will be slapped with a cease and desist order and face some pretty steep fines

 

[candycorn]

Seriously??
There are colleges that STILL RECEIVE TAX PAYER FUNDS that could only hope to have graduation rates as high as 7%.

Colleges with the Lowest Graduation Rate in the United States

Find the lowest graduation rate colleges in the United States ranked and explore detailed college rating and profiles.

www.collegesimply.com

I did a quick search. The first one on the list is closed. So is the Herzing university.

They are not receiving any funds whatsoever.

Getting back to the plan suggested in the OP--the point of the thread--if you want to spend the equivalent of your 60 hours of college playing dodge ball, basket weaving, or making paper airplanes...you can. But every paycheck you make will have the money paid upfront to fund your 60 hours of nonsense will have money deducted plus a small amount of interest.

And, yes, there will be fraud, corruption, and abuse...just like there is in every other endeavor under the sun.

 

[candycorn]

So then they should have used the skills they learned to get work with another plumber who would teach them more.

And this is where your 2 dimensional thinking shows because you have to put everything into just 2 different pigeonholes so you can make sense of the world.

I didn't vote for Trump I think he's a fucking idiot. I haven't voted for any member of the corrupt duopoly in 20 years.

And learning on the job is available to ANYONE who wants to work and learn a trade.

If they can get hired. Do you hire everyone who shows up and puts in an application?

Look I started a business when I was 20. I learned how to do basic carpentry and turned that into a business where I started doing basic stuff for people who owned rental units. Then I started flipping houses then I started building houses. I took a couple classes here and there later on but none were needed to get started


And once again you show your utter ignorance of the trades.

Anyone who builds a house MUST get a permit from the town and MUST pass inspections at every stage of the build. If you try to build a house without a permit you will be slapped with a cease and desist order and face some pretty steep fines

Yeah, every contractor is a prince and they never cut corners. What was I thinking?

Anyway...the plan I put fourth up in the OP would open the door to training for anyone who wishes to take it on. If you can get on with a contractor who will give you every opportunity you desire, pay you $25 to start, etc...

Go for it. Not everyone has that opportunity.

 

[Blues Man]

If they can get hired. Do you hire everyone who shows up and puts in an application?



Yeah, every contractor is a prince and they never cut corners. What was I thinking?

Anyway...the plan I put fourth up in the OP would open the door to training for anyone who wishes to take it on. If you can get on with a contractor who will give you every opportunity you desire, pay you $25 to start, etc...

Go for it. Not everyone has that opportunity.

How many times do you have to be told that contractors are BEGGING people to work for them?

Tell you what why don't you try to build a house without permits and inspections and see what happens. Maybe you should learn something about the trades before you start telling people in the trades what it is they need.

 

[candycorn]

How many times do you have to be told that contractors are BEGGING people to work for them?

Lots of times.

Do you hire everyone who puts in an application?

How many times have you been asked that?

 

[Blues Man]

Lots of times.

Do you hire everyone who puts in an application?

How many times have you been asked that?

I hired who I needed to hire.

FYI no one hires everyone that applies for any job.

If you ever ran a business you would know that

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

This is unbelievably stupid, as is most of what children are forced to do in college.

Why?

Most of what children learn in college is never used at their jobs.

I take it you don't actually know much about university.

The exception being degrees requiring math and science.

What was your degree in?

even though it is all just a con game to indoctrinate children into wokeism.

OK. Now I see. You aren't a college grad.

College isn't for everyone, nor should it be viewed as such, but that doesn't mean folks who never darkened the door of academe after they finished high school have a valid take on the topic.

College is too expensive and does not prepare children enough for the real job market.

And what, praytell, is the "real job market"?

That is why we also know children who run up debt in college and are still paying on those student loans after they reach 60 years of age.

No, the reason is is because the universities DID turn into profit-machines which means they hired a bunch of overpaid administrators, slashed the budget for actual FACULTY and ran the cost up. But you are to blame as well.

Why?

Because many of you right leaning folks voted for people who, upon seeing lottery revenue go to education, decided that the state should carry LESS BURDEN and the costs were shifted to the colleges.

You got exactly what you wanted.

Oopsy! Except now we have people getting even good quality engineering degrees who will NEVER see a day of their professional career where they aren't paying off their student debt in perpetuity. That's a drag on the economy that impacts even YOU.

You got what you wanted now ACCEPT WHAT IT IS YOU GOT.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Agreed.

Colleges were originally started by Christians, but to be a Christian today at one of these woke places of uniform learning is to be an outcast. And, if you look at these woke cult members wrong they need a safe place to hide from you if they get offended.

What a gross oversimplification of the origin and development of academe. It's like you made it through the "Children's Big Book of History" only so far as the establishment of colleges in medieval europe. You should keep reading. Maybe you'll learn something related to actual universities in the 20th and 21st centuries.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

How many times do you have to be told that contractors are BEGGING people to work for them?

And that's why so many of them use largely undocumented workers. It's these contractors that are keeping the flow of illegals coming into the US.

I guess the key is to get Americans to be willing to work for pennies on the dollar, in grueling conditions and without benefits!

Americans are simply too expensive. Even in America. America hates hiring Americans which is why most corporations started offshoring what they could back in the 80's.

 

[candycorn]

I hired who I needed to hire.

As you should have.

FYI no one hires everyone that applies for any job.

Correct. This is why we need to make training available to all.

If you ever ran a business you would know that

I do know this.

You're the one who seems to think that everyone who applies for a job will get hired, paid, and trained in a highly sought after trade.

I really don't know why you want to argue about this.

 

[Blues Man]

And that's why so many of them use largely undocumented workers. It's these contractors that are keeping the flow of illegals coming into the US.

I guess the key is to get Americans to be willing to work for pennies on the dollar, in grueling conditions and without benefits!

Americans are simply too expensive. Even in America. America hates hiring Americans which is why most corporations started offshoring what they could back in the 80's.

You don;t know shit.

I know people paying 20 an hour for people with little or no experience and they still can;t find people to work

 

[Blues Man]

As you should have.

Correct. This is why we need to make training available to all.

I do know this.

You're the one who seems to think that everyone who applies for a job will get hired, paid, and trained in a highly sought after trade.

I really don't know why you want to argue about this.

you're the one who seems to think that taking a class or two will guarantee everyone a job

 

[Dekster]

College is not intended as training for a specific job, in order to make money. College is intended to educate on a variety of subjects.

A well educated population is, and always has been, a huge asset for our nation. But unlike most industrialized nations, the US has priced it out of the reach of most Americans.

I like the way candycorn's plan includes trade schools and vocational training. Which is intended as training for a specific job or field.

Not always. Community colleges have programs that are specific to certain trades and licensure programs. Ours offers about a baker's dozen of them.

 

[candycorn]

you're the one who seems to think that taking a class or two will guarantee everyone a job

And I never, ever, wrote such a thing.

 

[Blues Man]

And I never, ever, wrote such a thing.

I never said you did.

Did I? Hence the phrase "You seem to think"