Student Loan Bail Out Highlights the Problem With How America Values Education

[Unkotare]

nah, really?

Really.

 

[candycorn]

How many automated home builders, plumbers or electricians have you ever seen?

You can learn a trade via experience. I have started dozens of people working in home renovation and construction who had zero experience. After a couple years on the job they have a useful and very marketable skill set.

And... okay. That is a different path. Finding a saint like yourself who will hire someone, train them, etc... may be hard to do in some areas. I applaud your efforts.

Getting back to the topic....

I was just saying that unlike some liberals (a lot of liberals TBH), we need to train hundreds of thousands of persons trained in the crafts of fields like you mentioned, carpentry, electricians, plumbers.
The plan I layed out doesn't ignore this..in fact it encourages and enables persons to get the training certificate they want without having to meet silly demands of curriculum or a mandatory class load. Back when I was in high school, they had this program called DECA where you went to school 1/2 the day and worked the other half. The community got a dependable employee working at a nursing home (where I worked briefly), in an auto body shop, at a grocery store, etc..., I think the employer got a little bump from the district as well, etc...

 

[SweetSue92]

I've mentioned this a few times here and there in different iterations but since President Biden has announced that some student loans are being forgiven, it seems appropriate to bring it up again.

Our current model of going to school, then going to college, and then getting a job has served America very well. The number of patents, the number of Nobel Prize winners, the GDP, etc... all tell the tale. The system works. It even works in areas that put such little value on education that being educated is seen as some sort of weakness; it's no coincidence that these places are also the most impoverished in the nation.

What isn't working so well is the way America thinks about education and leaves it up to the individuals to figure out how to get one. It's brazenly stupid on a number of levels. Chief amongst these are:

• If you don't have parents who encourage education, you're less likely to value it yourself.
• Having an educated workforce isn't an option for competitiveness...it is mandatory
• A college diploma is a great goal for some. For others, it shouldn't be forced upon them as we have done in many areas
• I'll add this one in...Education for the sake of education, in some cases, should be stressed. Studying history makes you a more interesting person even if your vocation or career is not dependent on knowing about the Lend/Lease program or what Magellan did.

So what I think we should do is to take the Social Security system--another proven winner of a program--and flip it on it's head to where you get the benefits at the age of 18 (or 28, or 38, or 48) and pay for it later during your work life. You pay into Social Security during your work life and get the benefits when you retire. In the plan I'm referencing, you get the benefits and pay back the "loan" through your earnings in the same way you pre-pay for social security...payroll deduction.

Who Qualifies?
When you've reached your 16th birthday, you can get student aid if you want. No qualifying. You don't have to take it.

How much can you get?
But it is there for you. Lets say you're in zip code 85002. The amount of aid you can get is the average semester hour of up to ten of the closest state-supported colleges or universities there are. So at 85002, you have Maricopa County Comm College, Arizona State, City College of Phoenix (if there still is one), Wesstern New Mexico State, South West Colorado State, etc... Set a radius from your residence of about 250-500 miles or so. The purpose is to get an average semester hour cost. So lets just say it's $500 a semester hour--just for the ease of math. The federal government, instead of asking you to take out a loan or try to qualify for grants or whatever, puts 60 semester hours into a bank for which only they have access. $500 X 60 = $30,000. Nobody is giving anyone $30,000 in cash. This is only used for education related expenses paid out by Uncle Sam itself. Chase, Wells Fargo, etc... have no role to play. Neither does the student really. They just get semester hours paid for.

How is it paid back?
Repayment is done through payroll deduction over your work life. You can pay it back sooner if you want. The payback terms are generous--over 30 years or so. So if you get 26 paychecks in a year and you've taken $30K, you will pay back $1,000 a year. Divide that by 26 paychecks and you will pay back $38.47 a paycheck. Add some interest and round it up to $40 or so. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. Older borrowers would have a slightly accelerated payback period or course.

How Can It be Used?
Here is where the current system really sucks from what I can see. You're asking a kid who is 18 to take on $60,000 in debt with no real plan to pay it back. Maybe they decide they don't want to be a nurse or think teaching is their goal in life only to find they don't like teaching. Did you know what you wanted to do for the rest of your life at 18? Me neither.

Just some examples:

A 16 y/o who doesn't want to go to college. She wants to become a beautician. If there is a certificate to becoming a beautician at a local junior college, the government states that you're going to have to go to Maricopa County Junior College instead of DeVry. Sorry. If there isn't a beautician course there, she can go to DeVry.

A 50 y/o mechanic wants to open his own shop. He wants to take courses in business management. He can utilize the funds to take those courses.

A conventional welder wants to expand his craft to become an underwater welder. He can take courses to do so free of charge.

An 18 y/o who graduates High School and wants to go to a 4 year college out of state--Lets say Ohio State. She can take her $30,000 and apply it for the first _________ number of classes at Ohio State. It may pay for one year. The rest is on her through student loans, grants, work study, etc...

A middle-management night auditor at a nationally accredited hospital would like to take courses on learning to play a harp. She can do that but she has to realize that the funding will be taken out of her future paychecks whether or not she makes a cent playing the harp or not.

=====

The point is to get as many college educated persons into the workforce as possible. It isn't a matter of "it would be nice to have an educated work force"...it is a necessity. Hopefully it will lead to more content providers (labor being their content). Those are the true drivers of the economy. Content consumption is a multi billion dollar industry as well and more income in the pockets of average Americans via increased productivity, increased wages, and some entrepreneurial spirit will allow for that as well. We'll still have some students who are in debt...but this will flatten that curve as well.

This seems mostly solid with one caveat: you can't force an "educated workforce" on people. These man-on-the-street interviews that are red meat for my fellow conservatives--that are supposed to prove how ignorant Americans are and how bad our public schools are--only prove that a certain % of people are pretty much impervious to education at a certain point. Or, better put: impervious to that which doesn't hold their interest. Or, as teachers say, "We taught that. You were talking."

 

[Blues Man]

And... okay. That is a different path. Finding a saint like yourself who will hire someone, train them, etc... may be hard to do in some areas. I applaud your efforts.

Getting back to the topic....

I was just saying that unlike some liberals (a lot of liberals TBH), we need to train hundreds of thousands of persons trained in the crafts of fields like you mentioned, carpentry, electricians, plumbers.
The plan I layed out doesn't ignore this..in fact it encourages and enables persons to get the training certificate they want without having to meet silly demands of curriculum or a mandatory class load. Back when I was in high school, they had this program called DECA where you went to school 1/2 the day and worked the other half. The community got a dependable employee working at a nursing home (where I worked briefly), in an auto body shop, at a grocery store, etc..., I think the employer got a little bump from the district as well, etc...

I had no choice but to hire and train people.

You obviously have no clue about the state of our skilled trade labor force.

 

[candycorn]

I had no choice but to hire and train people.

You obviously have no clue about the state of our skilled trade labor force.

“we need to train hundreds of thousands of persons trained in the crafts of fields like you mentioned, carpentry, electricians, plumbers.”

You disagree?

 

[Blues Man]

“we need to train hundreds of thousands of persons trained in the crafts of fields like you mentioned, carpentry, electricians, plumbers.”

You disagree?

The point is all these people can be trained in these trades while they are getting paid.

If we didn't have the everyone has to go to college mentality we do more kids would be encouraged to work in the trades.

3 or 4 years on the job is a far better education than anything you can get in class.

 

[candycorn]

The point is all these people can be trained in these trades while they are getting paid.

If we didn't have the everyone has to go to college mentality we do more kids would be encouraged to work in the trades.

3 or 4 years on the job is a far better education than anything you can get in class.

And you think there are enough apprenticeship positions open to meet the need?

 

[jbrownson0831]

Problem is, the undereducated, those who will never go to college, will never reach the point of making a decent argument in their head, never get to put all those pieces of information together to understand the benefits to SOCIETY of an educated workforce.

All the happens is someone tells them they're not getting money other people are getting and they get angry, because anger is how they experience the world.

You think college teaches them how to put an argument together? Maybe how to whine and live in mommy's basement.....

 

[Blues Man]

And you think there are enough apprenticeship positions open to meet the need?

Contractors, plumbers and electricians are crying for help

Like I said you obviously know nothing of the state ok skilled trades in this country

 

[candycorn]

Contractors, plumbers and electricians are crying for help

I'm sure they are. But that isn't what I asked you. Do you think there are enough of these "cries for help" to meet the need?

Would you be willing to pay $18-$25 an hour for raw talent? Probably not. When McDonalds is paying $15 an hour (after claiming for years they couldn't bu that is another topic), why would you want to take a job digging a trench for a pipe unless they are going to pay you more than $15 an hour?

Like I said you obviously know nothing of the state ok skilled trades in this country

I know we need more tradesmen and tradeswomen. Which is why the plan I related can train them.

 

[Blues Man]

I'm sure they are. But that isn't what I asked you. Do you think there are enough of these "cries for help" to meet the need?

Would you be willing to pay $18-$25 an hour for raw talent? Probably not. When McDonalds is paying $15 an hour (after claiming for years they couldn't bu that is another topic), why would you want to take a job digging a trench for a pipe unless they are going to pay you more than $15 an hour?


I know we need more tradesmen and tradeswomen. Which is why the plan I related can train them.

To meet what need?

Its the skilled labor market that has the need. And as I said the best training in the trades is on the job training.

2 years working will be far more beneficial than 2 years in a classroom.

The problem is the everyone has to go to college bullshit has diminished the idea of working in the trades as something undesirable.

 

[candycorn]

To meet what need?

We need hundreds of thousands of skilled craftsmen in every thing from auto repair to home repair to industrial upgrades, etc...

Its the skilled labor market that has the need. And as I said the best training in the trades is on the job training.

Again...wow....DO YOU THINK THERE ARE ENOUGH PAID APPRENTICESHIPS AVAILABLE TO MEET THE DEMAND?

2 years working will be far more beneficial than 2 years in a classroom.

Yeah, if you can get it. That would be perfect.

The problem is the everyone has to go to college bullshit has diminished the idea of working in the trades as something undesirable.

You're hopeless.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Student Loan Bail Out Highlights the Problem With How America Values Education

And the problem is that America doesn’t value education – at least not the way America values the military or sending men to the Moon (again).

Anyone who wants to go to college or post-secondary vocational training and can’t afford to do so should be given the funding to attend.

Unfortunately, America’s propensity for Social Darwinism is deeply rooted in our national DNA – where a college education should be the sole purview of the wealthy, and the poor should remain poor and ignorant.

 

[candycorn]

And the problem is that America doesn’t value education – at least not the way America values the military or sending men to the Moon (again).

Anyone who wants to go to college or post-secondary vocational training and can’t afford to do so should be given the funding to attend.

Hence the change in financing I highlighted.

The sad thing is that we can decide to build another aircraft carrier, a Space Force, or air combat wing and the decision is important but the republic survives either way. We can’t decide to just stop educating kids, put college out of reach or stop training the workforce without hamstringing the republic

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

And you think there are enough apprenticeship positions open to meet the need?

The problem is also a lack of funding for apprenticeship positions; and that what funding might be available, the process to acquire funding is byzantine and adversarial.

Take the WIOA program, for example, which provides funding for vocational training – many seeking funding for vocational training don’t know the Program exists, the eligibility process is needlessly complicated and confusing, and the Program is administered by private sector contractors often lacking a background in education and training programs.

In short – the Program is a mess.

This is the sort of nonsense those seeking funding for education must deal with.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Hence the change in financing I highlighted.

The sad thing is that we can decide to build another aircraft carrier, a Space Force, or air combat wing and the decision is important but the republic survives either way. We can’t decide to just stop educating kids, put college out of reach or stop training the workforce without hamstringing the republic

My proposal is a seamless transition from high school to college – no applications completed, no searching for grants or loans, no concerns about tuition; you just show up at college the next semester.

Of course, one would attend the nearest public college or university; if you live in a major metropolitan area, you’ll likely have more options. If you live in Idaho, likely not.

But everyone gets to go to college who wants to.

And if you have the desire and means to go to a private university, fine – you’re at liberty to do so.

 

[Blues Man]

We need hundreds of thousands of skilled craftsmen in every thing from auto repair to home repair to industrial upgrades, etc...

Again...wow....DO YOU THINK THERE ARE ENOUGH PAID APPRENTICESHIPS AVAILABLE TO MEET THE DEMAND?

Yeah, if you can get it. That would be perfect.


You're hopeless.

They aren't apprenticeships they are jobs.

There are literally more jobs in the trades than people to fill them. Most contractors will take anyone willing to work and learn.

 

[candycorn]

They aren't apprenticeships they are jobs.

There are literally more jobs in the trades than people to fill them. Most contractors will take anyone willing to work and learn.

So there is no guarantee the new hire will learn a skill, get advanced training? Let alone the “correct” way to do things?

 

[Blues Man]

So there is no guarantee the new hire will learn a skill, get advanced training? Let alone the “correct” way to do things?

He will have to learn a skill in order to keep his job. If he wants to be more than a grunt hammer swinger he will learn how to do more.

And tell me who is it better to learn from the guy who builds 12 houses a year of some hack in a classroom who never built a house?

 

[Devils_Advocate]

This is unbelievably stupid, as is most of what children are forced to do in college.

Why?

Most of what children learn in college is never used at their jobs.

The exception being degrees requiring math and science. These fields require them to be good in those subjects. But we all know the girl who got her 4 year degree in Woman's Studies who is now working at Burger King and owes $50,000 in student debt.

She may as well have gone to Trump U. The only difference is, people will yell foul who went to Trump U will maybe get their money back because people only hold Trump to account for what he does an no one else seemingly, as we see with Left wing colleges as no one calls out those colleges for not properly preparing students for the world job market even though it is all just a con game to indoctrinate children into wokeism. They have essentially been robbed with debt that is the worst debt to have since government has made it near impossible to get out of, even in bankruptcy. It is criminal.

Or we all know the nurse that went to school to be a nurse for 2 years and has been a nurse for 20 years and is forced to go back to school for their 4 year degree because the hospital says they need to do so.

Why?

Total stupidity.

College is too expensive and does not prepare children enough for the real job market.

The kicker is, they are all clueless about how to handle money which is the main problem with the economy today, children are clueless how to handle money.

That is why we also know children who run up debt in college and are still paying on those student loans after they reach 60 years of age.

Depends on her nursing degree .

Some Hospitals did away with their LVN\LPN nurses and prefer a two year degree RN instead and you can make more as a four year degree holder in the RN.

Also you need to learn new methods in medicine and you are never done with your schooling because what you were taught twenty years ago could be archaic and you need to learn the newer way to do things to advance and work in certain areas in the Hospital.