The system is broken, but it has nothing to do with the free market. It's broken because we're over-insured
Healthcare in the US is a privilege
- Thread starter Captain Caveman
- Start date
What's that got to do with health care?
You keep on contending that my support for government supported healthcare is a thinking that made Trump popular. Which is hilarious since Trump is trying to dismantle government altogether. Something that going by your arguments is something you get behind.
- Sep 16, 2012
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When the Rockefeller's took over healthcare because they saw it as a ripe opportunity for profits, that was when this crisis started IMO.
Rockefeller Medicine (video) | The Corbett Report
corbettreport.com
Episode 286 – Rockefeller Medicine | The Corbett Report
corbettreport.com
"As Americans fret about the Obamacare website and wonder how the country became enslaved to the highest healthcare costs in the world, we turn back the pages to look at how the modern medical paradigm came together in the early 20th century, courtesy of the Rockefeller Foundation and their cronies. Join us this week as we explore the real history of modern healthcare and the real motivations behind the family that brought it to you."
In the old days, when the Church and voluntary co-operatives ran the show, things were more sane IMO.
History and Health Cooperatives
Depression-era health solution may find new favor in the modern American struggle for health care change.
psmag.com
The Christian Origins of the Hospital
Did you know that the institution we know as the hospital is entirely an invention of the Catholic Church? Click here to learn more.
Clarion Herald: A Three-Century Legacy Of Health Care -
The latest posts from Catholic Charities Archdiocese of New Orleans, Page of 1
www.ccano.org
And yet in systems that rely less on the free market and EVERYBODY is insured healthcare costs less.
It's like trying to solve a math problem and saying the solution is orange.
Not sure what that means. The point I'm making it's that, if we make health care a government service, every election our health care will be at risk. We've got enough to fight about as it is.
At risk of what exactly? It's already the most expensive system in the world, while yielding mediocre results at best.
You seem to think government is the problem but free market isn't. Something directly contradicted by countless examples around the world.
Examples you don't seem to have a counter argument too, besides claiming they are somehow different by size or more cohesion, (something you would see reflected in the numbers), or more hilariously trying to somehow make it about a reasoning that begat Trump.
It relates in the fact that it is nonsense. Trump's position on healthcare is a thousand percent more similar to your position as it is to mine. Since Trump is definitely not arguing for universal healthcare.
Your argument that healthcare should not be let in the hands of the government because the people might elect a bad leader, citing Trump as an example as such a bad leader while at the same time arguing for his basic position on it. Is ironic in the extreme.
Why don't you try to defend that position on merit?
Are you pretending you've never heard of DOGE?
Sigh ... It seems you're playing dumb. But just in case it's not an act, I'll indulge. Our dysfunctional two-party system pretty much ensures that every few years there will be a sea change in government. Each of the two parties are dedicated to the idea of ripping out everything the other side did when they get the chance. All in the name of the culture war. If government takes over healthcare, healthcare will be part of that game.
Another example - have you been following the news, or the discussion threads on the board, about denying "luxury" purchases to welfare recipients? It's trivial and pointless, but it shows how much people get their panties in a twist when they think "my tax dollars" are paying for it.
How do you think things will pan out when we're all forced into the same boat re: healthcare? Will transgender people get health care? Likely not if Trumpsters are running the show. What about people who are overweight? Or have bad health habits like smoking or engaging in risky behavior? You know damned well people will be calling for penalizing those who might end up incurring more health care costs. Won't that be fun.
The free market isn't the problem. The lack of one is the problem.
I don't need a counter argument. Those are countries that lean more socialist than the US and I wouldn't want to live in them. I don't want politicians controlling my health care. So I don't care how much money they save on health care. We could also save a lot of money if the government took over supplying our groceries, or banned automobiles, etc ...
This seems related to what you were trying to say earlier. What does it mean to "make it about a reasoning that begat Trump"?
So what? Trump is an idiot. I don't want him controlling my healthcare, regardless of who originally puts government in charge.
What "position"?? Does he have one? Certainly nothing coherent.
Trump has no ideology. He's not in favor of free markets. He's a populist who says whatever will get his supporters worked up. He has no intention of repealing ACA - because Republicans want the power to control health care just as much as Democrats do.
I guess what confuses you is your inability to see outside of the petty two-party pissing match. You think that, because I'm arguing against bad policy supported by Democrats, then I must be up Trump's ass. I get the same nonsense from Trumpsters who - merely because I criticize Trump - are certain I'm a flaming leftist. The two party shit has all of you forgetting to think for yourselves.
No, I think your position on healthcare, (the free market is the solution, and government should have no say in it, a position that objectively is completely unsupported by facts) is the same position I see from countless other people who identify with MAGA. Even if you hate everything else about it, that particular position (the topic of the OP) is what Trump supports. Be it out of ideology or opportunism. I'm perfectly willing to accept that you don't like Trump. I'm simply saying that your position in this is similar.
That's kind of the point of the OP now isn't it. You by your own admission can't come up with a rational reason to oppose healthcare as it exists outside the States. You simply don't like the idea of the government controlling large parts of it. Even when it has superior results. All the rest are just deflections. That of course is your right.
My opinion is that I will go with the system that produces the best possible result for the cheapest possible cost for this service.
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Well, it isn't. Think whatever you like.
Apparently you're having reading difficulties. Here's my rational reason. Again: I don't want healthcare to be a political football. I don't want to worry, every single election, that some politician is going to fuck with my health care.
Now, can you go back and actually answer my question, rather than evading? Do you want Trump/MAGA/DOGE etc to control your healthcare??? I don't.
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gipper
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There is no free market. It’s all a rigged system on purpose.
EvilCat Breath
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Why would they. Countries that provide government funded health care have very high taxes. The goal is to keep costs down so they can have those taxes. That's why so many countries that have government funded health care also have euthanasia. Bonus points for harvesting usable organs.
That's not an opinion. But objective fact
They already do and exert that power by making the government functions by which they control parts of the healthcare system more difficult. Everything from the VA to the FDA, CDC and HHS is being attacked with little to no regard for the consequences on it's functioning. With as a goal to "make the free market the only option."
Precisely what you are advocating.
I'm not dodging you are simply refusing to accept the answer, because you somehow can't recognize how your argument is their argument.
No. It's your misunderstanding. But if the only way you can cope with what I'm saying is to write me off as a Trump supporter, I can't stop you. And I can't care.
They have too much power over health care, true. That's why it's as fucked up as it is. But what you're proposing would radically amplify that power. Socialized medicine will give the government far more control over your healthcare. Your very health will be dependent on the next election.
What am I refusing to answer?? I've answered every fucking question you've asked. Yet you continue to ostrich up on the point I'm making. You continue to blithely pretend that there isn't very real risk involved in putting all our eggs into one basket, in putting our health care in the hands of people like Donald Trump. That's what you want to force on people.
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It was fucked up WAYYYYY before Trump was even running. The fucked up nature of US healthcare is decades old. Pretending it was fine until Trump showed up is simply wrong.
We are simply talking next to another instead of to each other. You think that blaming the faults off the American healthcare system on Trump and your (justified) fear of his mendacity is a good argument for not wanting socialized healthcare. My argument is that nothing in Trumps actions suggests his administration has any interest in socialized healthcare, the exact opposite actually. Something you keep on ignoring. Not just that. You also ignore that opposition to socialized healthcare or anything even resembling it is a fundamental part of the GOP in general. An opposition you obviously share.
It's a schizophrenic position.
"You don't want socialized healthcare because that would mean the people who also don't want socialized healthcare might succeed in executing that agenda."
Again I'm not saying you are a Trump supporter. I'm saying that your position about healthcare simply matches theirs.
You repeatedly miss the mark, assuming I'm saying something I didn't. I didn't say Trump fucked health care up. I said too much government meddling fucked it up. Is English your first language?
Well, you're not reading what I'm typing, so that's part of it.
Wow....
That's my point. And it simply can't find purchase in your brain. If you pass socialized medicine, it will be in jeopardy every time someone like Trump is elected. It's stunning how obtuse you're being about this.
Trump has no genuine interest in getting government out of health care. He hasn't even tried. He could have repealed ACA, but he didn't. And he won't. He's already changed his line to "repeal and replace", which means he still wants government meddling. He just wants to "meddle different".
And Trump isn't making government smaller. He's just staggering around pissing on things.
That's not what I said. But it seems to be all you're going to hear.
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