Zone1 Have we lost The Bible Story?

[alang1216]

I'm like Meriweather. I did NOT lockdown. I did NOT take the vaccine. I take very little blindly "by faith". Certainly not the Bible.

Again you failed to answer my questions:

Why are you so sure God didn't reveal some of that plan to Smith? Or Mohammad?​

 

[alang1216]

Scripture notes that God (in totality) is beyond human understanding.

God would not tell someone to crash a plane into a building because that is not who God is.

These seem contradictory to me? Is this the same God who downed men, women, children, and animals in a great flood or ordered Joshua to kill every living thing in Jericho?

However, some Muslims hold a very strong belief that nothing can happen without it being the will of God. They believe they cannot lift a finger if that is not the will of God. They cannot crash a plane into a building without it first being the will of God. This can be kind of scary, correct, the belief that if one can do it, God wills it; that nothing can happen without it first being the will of God. So...religions that profess free will are always going to be at odds with a religion that professes, if someone does it, it is the will of God (no free will).

You don't speak for all Christians of course. Saint Francis would walk outside in the morning and spin around until he was so dizzy he fell down. He believed the direction he fell was determined by God so he would walk in that direction and preach to anyone he encountered. If he met no one, he's preach to the animals and the trees.

The number one reason I cannot become a Muslim is explained above. I know God granted us free will and that He values free will. I hold no belief that if I eat a pint of ice cream in one sitting it is God's will that I eat all that ice cream.

If God gave us free will why does he punish us when we exercise it? It is like saying to a prisoner that he has free will since he can go anywhere in his cell he wishes to.

 

[Donald H]

Maybe look at what happened when your militant atheist buddies tried to abolish religion.

Rome wasn't built in a day, but religion's eventual outcome is heading to the same endpoint. The Catholick church threw out baby jesus with the bath water when they invited Darwin in.

 

[Meriweather]

These seem contradictory to me? Is this the same God who downed men, women, children, and animals in a great flood or ordered Joshua to kill every living thing in Jericho?

Was any human being responsible for all that were killed in the great flood? No. Yet people took on the responsibility of these deaths. They noted they were not behaving as commanded; they were speaking with wicked tongues. Only one man did not speak, and he was considered good.

Did Joshua kill every living thing? Can one man kill every living thing? Further did Jericho's men kill every living thing? The answer to all of this, No. Even so, many were killed, and there was a great deal of destruction. Why? Again, what were the people up to beforehand? Were they living according to the ways of God and His commands?

More often than not, the themes (lessons) in Biblical accounts have nothing to do with how many died. The themes are about what brought on the disaster.

 

[Meriweather]

You don't speak for all Christians of course. Saint Francis would walk outside in the morning and spin around until he was so dizzy he fell down. He believed the direction he fell was determined by God so he would walk in that direction and preach to anyone he encountered. If he met no one, he's preach to the animals and the trees.

As a substitute teacher I can relate. I cannot plan my day, choose who I will teach or what I will teach. Instead of being able to plan every minute, every detail of my day, I take on what is there before me. The blessing in this--and I believe the blessing that came upon St. Francis--is there is no grounds for pride. I am in a place that I did not build, plan, organize, or gather in those who would be there. I simply walk in and work with what is there before me. If the day goes well, all credit belongs to the students and the teacher who designed the lesson for me to follow. St. Francis lived a humble life because of his belief/faith that humility is the foundation of all virtues.

(By the way, I don't live a humble life. I simply, very much by accident and at first against my will, landed in a humbling career.)

 

[Meriweather]

If God gave us free will why does he punish us when we exercise it? It is like saying to a prisoner that he has free will since he can go anywhere in his cell he wishes to.

Why does gravity punish someone who jumps from the roof of a house? Free will is the choosing to jump. Isn't your immediate thought, "The result of jumping off the roof wasn't punishment, that was the consequence."

In the same way, every other act we make has a consequence. I don't go to work, I don't get paid. I eat too much, I gain weight. I drink more than a thimble full of wine, I go to sleep. Everything I do, I weight the consequences. I don't choose to go to prison, so I avoid acts where the consequence is prison. Free will.

 

[Donald H]

Was any human being responsible for all that were killed in the great flood? No. Yet people took on the responsibility of these deaths.

You're making the assumption that the great flood is to be thought of as literally happening. I think that it's now being accepted as not a true story.

They noted they were not behaving as commanded; they were speaking with wicked tongues. Only one man did not speak, and he was considered good.

Did Joshua kill every living thing? Can one man kill every living thing? Further did Jericho's men kill every living thing? The answer to all of this, No. Even so, many were killed, and there was a great deal of destruction. Why? Again, what were the people up to beforehand? Were they living according to the ways of God and His commands?

And now you've suggested that only 'many' were killed in the great flood. Thus, you've effectively claimed that the great flood wasn't literally true? It has to be all or nothing according to the bibles.

More often than not, the themes (lessons) in Biblical accounts have nothing to do with how many died. The themes are about what brought on the disaster.

Which one of the disasters has survived the CC's admission that they were not meant to be literally true?

 

[alang1216]

Was any human being responsible for all that were killed in the great flood? No. Yet people took on the responsibility of these deaths. They noted they were not behaving as commanded; they were speaking with wicked tongues. Only one man did not speak, and he was considered good.

Did Joshua kill every living thing? Can one man kill every living thing? Further did Jericho's men kill every living thing? The answer to all of this, No. Even so, many were killed, and there was a great deal of destruction. Why? Again, what were the people up to beforehand? Were they living according to the ways of God and His commands?

More often than not, the themes (lessons) in Biblical accounts have nothing to do with how many died. The themes are about what brought on the disaster.

Whatever brought on these disasters, the babies that died there were not responsible. Neither were the animals.

 

[Donald H]

As a substitute teacher I can relate. I cannot plan my day, choose who I will teach or what I will teach. Instead of being able to plan every minute, every detail of my day, I take on what is there before me.

You don't have free will to teach what you want to teach. That is how it must be, because everyone's free will differs.

Your church allows you to interpret the truth but the school board doesn't.

The school insists on Darwinian evolution being accepted and taught. You don't have 'free will' to teach creation.

 

[alang1216]

Why does gravity punish someone who jumps from the roof of a house? Free will is the choosing to jump. Isn't your immediate thought, "The result of jumping off the roof wasn't punishment, that was the consequence."

In the same way, every other act we make has a consequence. I don't go to work, I don't get paid. I eat too much, I gain weight. I drink more than a thimble full of wine, I go to sleep. Everything I do, I weight the consequences. I don't choose to go to prison, so I avoid acts where the consequence is prison. Free will.

If you know in advance the consequences you exercise free will. If God chooses to remain hidden except from the Elect, the Chosen, etc., our will is not so free. If you come before God and he says, sorry you're going to Hell since you didn't follow Mohammad, did you really have free will?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I'm sure the 9/11 terrorists would say they were led by God too.

Yup.

 

[Donald H]

Whatever brought on these disasters, the babies that died there were not responsible. Neither were the animals.

Meri doesn't believe that the disaster (s) must be accepted as literally happening.

 

[alang1216]

Yup.

Who can say they were not?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Who can say they were not?

Nobody. That's the pratfall of magical horseshit. No way to tell who is right and who is wrong.

 

[Donald H]

The Catholic church is responsible for losing the bible stories when it granted the flock to believe whatever they chose to believe and to feel comfortable with.

The flock can never be comfortable with the beliefs of other Catholics when they are direct contradictions of their own.

As an atheist I can say with certainty that the 'big fish' story and the story about the Ark are not true stories.

{b] No Catholic has any standing that allows him/her to challenge that! [/b]

And I can just as safely proclaim those stories to be true, without being challenged!

We have all at least reached agreement on that being the main reason why the bible stories are lost!

 

[Donald H]

Nobody. That's the pratfall of magical horseshit. No way to tell who is right and who is wrong.

Actually there is a way and the Catholic church has offered a way at the same time that they allowed all the assorted contradictory beliefs. Don't forget what that is!

It's the mandatory belief that the god created everything.

We only have to be believers to accept that explanation.

 

[Meriweather]

You're making the assumption that the great flood is to be thought of as literally happening. I think that it's now being accepted as not a true story.

I believe there was a great flood. I don't believe it was a planet-wide flood. The Hebrew atheist I once knew explained that when water covered the earth, it was in the context that water covered the ground. Another word was used for planet.

And now you've suggested that only 'many' were killed in the great flood. Thus, you've effectively claimed that the great flood wasn't literally true? It has to be all or nothing according to the bibles.

Is there a range of numbers that qualify as "many"? My understanding is that many means a lot, but no one knows the exact number. Is it your understanding that an exact number is available?

Which one of the disasters has survived the CC's admission that they were not meant to be literally true?

I'm not clear on your point. Apparently you believe all Biblical accounts are literal? Were you never taught the various short story classifications? Fables, myths, folklore, legend, just so, etc.? You never went through the Bible identifying what type of classification the various authors used to present their themes/lessons?

 

[SweetSue92]

Would you feel the same about a pet dog or cat?

I mean yes. People euthanize their pets all the time if they're very ill. We consider that the humane thing to do. Same as plants headed for a freeze death.

But of course, I'm not God, so I don't determine anyone's eternity. God creates and determines, so He has the right.

 

[Meriweather]

Whatever brought on these disasters, the babies that died there were not responsible. Neither were the animals.

Are you saying they were responsible? Then what about today when a child contracts cancer. Do you believe that child was somehow responsible?

Try reading Biblical stories/lessons without jumping to conclusions that you think children and animals were responsible for the flood. Even Biblical adults were not responsible for the flood. In hindsight, what they took into account their behavior before the flood, and their conclusion was such behavior deserved to be stopped. At the end of the story, another conclusion was reached...that same behavior was destined to start all over again, and the very person who did not engage in it before the flood, was the very person who started the ball rolling again after the flood.

There is a lot of depth in the story of the flood, but most seem content to play in the shallows...and blame babies and animals. Dig deeper! What is the theme? What is the lesson? It is a story, not a scientific, encyclopedia, newspaper account of an actual event. The flood is the setting of a story, a story with a theme--and a very common theme at that.

 

[SweetSue92]

Again you failed to answer my questions:

Why are you so sure God didn't reveal some of that plan to Smith? Or Mohammad?​

Smith was a known liar and fabricator. Let me know if you want more information, but for a start, look up the Book of Abraham.

Mohammad starts with Allah, one God. If that god can love, he can only love himself. But the Christian Triune God is able to love from eternity--the three in one. Love has an object.