Zone1 Have we lost The Bible Story?

[Meriweather]

I also started from a position of faith but my pursuit of logic led me to be an atheist.

I don't get this. One of the first things I learned about the pursuit of logic is that logic's immediate limitation (and thus failing) is that logic is a mental concept. There is no certainty because ultimately there is no absolute proof of anything. Then there is the problem of judgment, especially value judgments. (I was still quite young when Spock's logic became so well-known, and not everyone was an immediate fan of Star Trek.)

Logically, atheism is a mental concept. Do you believe humans are made up of body, mind, and spirit? I ask, because many atheists hold no belief in soul/spirit. In either case, it seems the mind would have to clamp down pretty hard on the spirit to dismiss the "logic" of a greater Spirit, of a greater Intelligence than what humans possess. Further, time and again we have testimony of what is Spirit crossing over into the physical.

From time to time throughout the day, I've found myself wondering about how logic, a mental concept, leads one to atheism. It seems that to hold onto this mental concept, one must dismiss one-third of who everyone is.

 

[SweetSue92]

Good answer but you presume you know the one true Bible. If the Bible is the work of committees of men over hundreds of years, how do we know what is truth. If the Bible is the work of God, how do we know God didn't write the Book of Mormon?

The Bible--the "committee of men", as you call it--is the unfolding plan. It's God's Word, but not revealed in a way that is era-ending. C.S. Lewis said when that happens it's the end of the world. "When the author takes the stage the play is over." It's not time for that yet (but it will be).

The Bible was written by many authors over thousands of years and tells a coherent story of God's plan of redemption.

The Book of Mormon was written when Joseph Smith peered into a hat, looked at rocks, and found some golden plates--some 1500+ years the Bible itself claimed it's complete.

 

[alang1216]

Funny how that worked.

Why so? There was a 50-50 chance I was right back then.

 

[alang1216]

Yep, you don't have a clue. Needless to say, your thoughts about how I came to my faith are diametrically opposite to how I came to my faith.

I think you are confusing me with another USMB poster. You never mentioned to me about any absence or how you came to your faith.

 

[alang1216]

I don't get this. One of the first things I learned about the pursuit of logic is that logic's immediate limitation (and thus failing) is that logic is a mental concept. There is no certainty because ultimately there is no absolute proof of anything.

That is true but if you apply it to the real world nothing will ever get done. Juries decide based on the basis of reasonable doubt determined by the evidence. That was my process. I reviewed the evidence I knew and came to a conclusion. I've since reviewed much more evidence, USMB being one source, but only had my conclusion reinforced with the new evidence.

Then there is the problem of judgment, especially value judgments. (I was still quite young when Spock's logic became so well-known, and not everyone was an immediate fan of Star Trek.)

We all have to make value judgements, we just use varying criteria. (I was a big fan.)

Logically, atheism is a mental concept. Do you believe humans are made up of body, mind, and spirit? I ask, because many atheists hold no belief in soul/spirit. In either case, it seems the mind would have to clamp down pretty hard on the spirit to dismiss the "logic" of a greater Spirit, of a greater Intelligence than what humans possess. Further, time and again we have testimony of what is Spirit crossing over into the physical.

I certainly believe we have consciousness that creates our 'sprit' but is there a greater one? I've never seen convincing evidence.

From time to time throughout the day, I've found myself wondering about how logic, a mental concept, leads one to atheism. It seems that to hold onto this mental concept, one must dismiss one-third of who everyone is.

To me, logic was a rational review of the evidence. To believe in the God of the Bible I would have to accept things I've never encountered and, as a child of the 60's, I was very skeptical of what others told me to believe.

 

[SweetSue92]

That is true but if you apply it to the real world nothing will ever get done. Juries decide based on the basis of reasonable doubt determined by the evidence. That was my process. I reviewed the evidence I knew and came to a conclusion. I've since reviewed much more evidence, USMB being one source, but only had my conclusion reinforced with the new evidence.


We all have to make value judgements, we just use varying criteria. (I was a big fan.)


I certainly believe we have consciousness that creates our 'sprit' but is there a greater one? I've never seen convincing evidence.


To me, logic was a rational review of the evidence. To believe in the God of the Bible I would have to accept things I've never encountered and, as a child of the 60's, I was very skeptical of what others told me to believe.

That last assertion always sends up a red flag for me based on this:

Did you lockdown when the govt said to?

Did you cover your face in paper when the govt said to?

Did you have yourself injected with God knows what vaccines when the govt said to?

I have found that "children of the 60s" are very selective rebels.

 

[alang1216]

The Bible--the "committee of men", as you call it--is the unfolding plan. It's God's Word, but not revealed in a way that is era-ending. C.S. Lewis said when that happens it's the end of the world. "When the author takes the stage the play is over." It's not time for that yet (but it will be).

Why are you so sure God didn't reveal some of that plan to Smith? Or Mohammad?

The Bible was written by many authors over thousands of years and tells a coherent story of God's plan of redemption.

Coherent? That is not the Bible I've read. What I read reveals different theologies evolving over time.

The Book of Mormon was written when Joseph Smith peered into a hat, looked at rocks, and found some golden plates--some 1500+ years the Bible itself claimed it's complete.

A common misconception of Christians. What you refer to is the claim of Revelation that the Bible was complete but, since there was no cannon at that time, it could only refer to itself, not the later construction we know as the Bible. It was only when the Bible was fully assembled and Revelation put in as the last book did it come to be accepted as referring to the Bible as a whole.

 

[alang1216]

That last assertion always sends up a red flag for me based on this:

Did you lockdown when the govt said to?

Did you cover your face in paper when the govt said to?

Did you have yourself injected with God knows what vaccines when the govt said to?

I have found that "children of the 60s" are very selective rebels.

Yes to all but not because the 'government' said so, I did it because medical professionals, who know way more than I do, advised me to. I don't consider myself a 'rebel' so much as a skeptic who demands evidence for what he does. I also look at the motives of people telling me what to do or think.

 

[SweetSue92]

Yes to all but not because the 'government' said so, I did it because medical professionals, who know way more than I do, advised me to. I don't consider myself a 'rebel' so much as a skeptic who demands evidence for what he does. I also look at the motives of people telling me what to do or think.

I'm sorry to tell you but your skepticism failed in that case.

 

[SweetSue92]

Why are you so sure God didn't reveal some of that plan to Smith? Or Mohammad?


Coherent? That is not the Bible I've read. What I read reveals different theologies evolving over time.


A common misconception of Christians. What you refer to is the claim of Revelation that the Bible was complete but, since there was no cannon at that time, it could only refer to itself, not the later construction we know as the Bible. It was only when the Bible was fully assembled and Revelation put in as the last book did it come to be accepted as referring to the Bible as a whole.

Explain to me the different theologies evolving over time. Because what I read in Genesis is: God made man to be with and for God. Man sinned. God banished man from the Garden (the kingdom) but made a plan for man to be redeemed. Thus unfolds the rest of the Bible story, ending with man being redeemed at the end, in the New Heaven and New Earth.

Pretty darn coherent for a book written over centuries by multiple authors in different languages.

 

[SweetSue92]

Why are you so sure God didn't reveal some of that plan to Smith? Or Mohammad?

Part of why I'm sure is that the early disciples of Christ--who were cowardly, scattered, and unsure after His death--changed entirely after He was resurrected. They had nothing to gain that was power or money or status, etc. In fact, they were "sheep to be slaughtered"--hounded, prisoned, beaten, shipwrecked, etc. Many became martyrs for Christ.

These were smart men who, in the age of illiteracy, wrote their stories.

Who would die for what they know is a lie?

 

[Meriweather]

To me, logic was a rational review of the evidence. To believe in the God of the Bible I would have to accept things I've never encountered and, as a child of the 60's, I was very skeptical of what others told me to believe.

Evidence is defined by what can be measured by the five senses.

I would not describe you as skeptical. Compare how you acted during Covid and how I acted. I refused to wear masks, refused to stay inside, refused to wash down all my purchases after coming home from the grocery store, avoided the mandated vaccine(s) at the workplace. What I did do: Went online to see what worked during the Spanish flu (1919-1918). Wash hands frequently and change towels, drink plenty of fluids, vitamins with zinc do not hurt, sun, fresh air, rest, and exercise. I also looked up the efficacy of face masks (it was at best a placebo), and if those who were recommending face masks and vaccines were investors in pharmaceuticals. (Never let a crisis stop the already rich and powerful to milk said crisis for more wealth and power.) Clearly I'm the more skeptical (and probably the more cynical).

I also challenge your "logic". Depression and pain are two conditions that can have no physical measurement (or even symptoms) but I'm betting you always accept a person's word when they say they are experiencing pain (even mental pain) or feel depressed. But let people (and there have been millions down through the ages) tell you they experience God (or angels) and you dismiss them out of hand.

Example: More than half the population believe in God. Slightly less than half the populations goes through childbirth. This half testifies that childbirth is painful. What physical evidence is there for this pain and how much pain there is? Perhaps your mother even told you that your childbirth was painful. Were you, being skeptical at age twelve, disbelieving and asking your mother to produce evidence that she had been in any pain at all? I'll bet you accept painful childbirth as fact, even menstrual cramps as fact. If someone tells you they feel suicidal, I'm betting you will rush to bring help to them, even though you have no "evidence" only testimony.

Yet, when you are given testimony, experience, and others' knowledge of God you dismiss this out of hand. Why? Expectations. I'll bet almost everything (not my first born child) that because faith/religion/God call you to a greater expectation and you don't want to be bothered. You wanna do what you wanna, not what service God might call you to provide for Him and others. The other thing that crosses my mind is that most of the time you actually feel a responsibility to meet the expectations of others--and meeting God's expectations crosses the line of what you feel is fair to you.

Okay, all this being said, I am not playing a psychologist, have no knowledge of psychiatry, and definitely cannot read or even look into your mind. I am presenting only what is crossing my own mind, hoping (if you feel irritated after reading that diatribe) you will take a beat and be patient with me. Thanks!

 

[alang1216]

I'm sorry to tell you but your skepticism failed in that case.

Maybe but I have to go with the best available evidence and process new evidence as it becomes available.

 

[alang1216]

Explain to me the different theologies evolving over time. Because what I read in Genesis is: God made man to be with and for God. Man sinned. God banished man from the Garden (the kingdom) but made a plan for man to be redeemed. Thus unfolds the rest of the Bible story, ending with man being redeemed at the end, in the New Heaven and New Earth.

Pretty darn coherent for a book written over centuries by multiple authors in different languages.

I'll give you one example. In the OT, God judges the people of Israel, not individual Israelis. When God punishes, he punishes every single man, woman, and child. When David sinned, the census, 70,000 Israelis died. The NT is much more about individual judgement.

 

[alang1216]

Part of why I'm sure is that the early disciples of Christ--who were cowardly, scattered, and unsure after His death--changed entirely after He was resurrected. They had nothing to gain that was power or money or status, etc. In fact, they were "sheep to be slaughtered"--hounded, prisoned, beaten, shipwrecked, etc. Many became martyrs for Christ.

These were smart men who, in the age of illiteracy, wrote their stories.

Who would die for what they know is a lie?

Assuming everything you wrote is true, it still doesn't answer my questions, because you can't answer them. You have faith and that is enough for you. It is not enough for me.

 

[alang1216]

Evidence is defined by what can be measured by the five senses.

I would not describe you as skeptical. Compare how you acted during Covid and how I acted. I refused to wear masks, refused to stay inside, refused to wash down all my purchases after coming home from the grocery store, avoided the mandated vaccine(s) at the workplace. What I did do: Went online to see what worked during the Spanish flu (1919-1918). Wash hands frequently and change towels, drink plenty of fluids, vitamins with zinc do not hurt, sun, fresh air, rest, and exercise. I also looked up the efficacy of face masks (it was at best a placebo), and if those who were recommending face masks and vaccines were investors in pharmaceuticals. (Never let a crisis stop the already rich and powerful to milk said crisis for more wealth and power.) Clearly I'm the more skeptical (and probably the more cynical).

So you reviewed the evidence available and came to you own conclusions. Bravo, that is exactly what I endeavor to do. The fact that we are different people explains our different conclusions about the same evidence.

I also challenge your "logic". Depression and pain are two conditions that can have no physical measurement (or even symptoms) but I'm betting you always accept a person's word when they say they are experiencing pain (even mental pain) or feel depressed. But let people (and there have been millions down through the ages) tell you they experience God (or angels) and you dismiss them out of hand.

Lots of people have experienced what they are convinced is 'God'. However, the Christian interpretations are very different from the Native American interpretations. Makes me think people are talking to their God and hearing what they wish to hear.

Example: More than half the population believe in God. Slightly less than half the populations goes through childbirth. This half testifies that childbirth is painful. What physical evidence is there for this pain and how much pain there is? Perhaps your mother even told you that your childbirth was painful. Were you, being skeptical at age twelve, disbelieving and asking your mother to produce evidence that she had been in any pain at all? I'll bet you accept painful childbirth as fact, even menstrual cramps as fact. If someone tells you they feel suicidal, I'm betting you will rush to bring help to them, even though you have no "evidence" only testimony.

True enough but there are limits. If someone tells you God told them to crash a plane into a building, you might not accept it as divine revelation.

Yet, when you are given testimony, experience, and others' knowledge of God you dismiss this out of hand. Why? Expectations. I'll bet almost everything (not my first born child) that because faith/religion/God call you to a greater expectation and you don't want to be bothered. You wanna do what you wanna, not what service God might call you to provide for Him and others. The other thing that crosses my mind is that most of the time you actually feel a responsibility to meet the expectations of others--and meeting God's expectations crosses the line of what you feel is fair to you.

None of that is true, sorry. Muslims may also have testimony, experience, and knowledge of their God, do you dismiss this out of hand or do you become a Muslim?

Okay, all this being said, I am not playing a psychologist, have no knowledge of psychiatry, and definitely cannot read or even look into your mind. I am presenting only what is crossing my own mind, hoping (if you feel irritated after reading that diatribe) you will take a beat and be patient with me. Thanks!

I sincerely appreciate your words. They force me to think and I like that.

 

[SweetSue92]

I'll give you one example. In the OT, God judges the people of Israel, not individual Israelis. When God punishes, he punishes every single man, woman, and child. When David sinned, the census, 70,000 Israelis died. The NT is much more about individual judgement.

Not a single one of us has earned our next breath or heartbeat. It is all God's grace. If He is Creator, He and He alone has our eternal destiny in mind. And eternity compared to this life is nothing.

It's like this. It's getting cold here. Our outdoor flowers will die soon. It's our domain to decide if we leave the flowers for a few days before they inevitably die, or whether we preserve them for a bit more.

Either way, they will die.

Either way, it's our domain.

 

[SweetSue92]

Assuming everything you wrote is true, it still doesn't answer my questions, because you can't answer them. You have faith and that is enough for you. It is not enough for me.

I'm like Meriweather. I did NOT lockdown. I did NOT take the vaccine. I take very little blindly "by faith". Certainly not the Bible.

 

[Meriweather]

Lots of people have experienced what they are convinced is 'God'. However, the Christian interpretations are very different from the Native American interpretations. Makes me think people are talking to their God and hearing what they wish to hear.

Scripture notes that God (in totality) is beyond human understanding. Next throw in what people describe in one language/culture into the language/culture of another culture(s). No, people are not hearing what they wish to hear, but are endeavoring to describe what they did hear/understand.

Remember, God never conveyed to me He is the creator of heaven and earth. I take that on faith. I do know that God is pure love, loves all, and that we are all given the gift of free will.

True enough but there are limits. If someone tells you God told them to crash a plane into a building, you might not accept it as divine revelation.

God would not tell someone to crash a plane into a building because that is not who God is.

However, some Muslims hold a very strong belief that nothing can happen without it being the will of God. They believe they cannot lift a finger if that is not the will of God. They cannot crash a plane into a building without it first being the will of God. This can be kind of scary, correct, the belief that if one can do it, God wills it; that nothing can happen without it first being the will of God. So...religions that profess free will are always going to be at odds with a religion that professes, if someone does it, it is the will of God (no free will).

None of that is true, sorry. Muslims may also have testimony, experience, and knowledge of their God, do you dismiss this out of hand or do you become a Muslim?

The number one reason I cannot become a Muslim is explained above. I know God granted us free will and that He values free will. I hold no belief that if I eat a pint of ice cream in one sitting it is God's will that I eat all that ice cream.

That does not mean Muslims and I worship a different God. God is one. We simply have different perspectives of God, and I find nothing at all wrong with that. I believe God (His Holy Spirit) meets each one of us where we are and draws us closer to Him and His Ways from there. He has spent thousands of years with the Jews, a few thousand less with Christians and Muslims (and many other religions), with no end in sight, and no hint that He is giving up on any of us.

 

[alang1216]

Not a single one of us has earned our next breath or heartbeat. It is all God's grace. If He is Creator, He and He alone has our eternal destiny in mind. And eternity compared to this life is nothing.

It's like this. It's getting cold here. Our outdoor flowers will die soon. It's our domain to decide if we leave the flowers for a few days before they inevitably die, or whether we preserve them for a bit more.

Either way, they will die.

Either way, it's our domain.

Would you feel the same about a pet dog or cat?