Gitmo Torture Victim Free After 12 Years of Abuse
- Thread starter georgephillip
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How does one respond seriously to a non sequitur. You haven't answered my question. Have you been waterboarded and had rectal feeding tubes shoved up your ass?
2aguy
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Hey, Don'tTazMeBro.....I know this guy was tortured...for real....for years.....and he still supports waterboarding terrorists
Leo Thorsness Torture thoughts on Memorial Day Power Line
Leo Thorsness is the Minnesota native who was awarded the Medal of Honor for unbelievable heroics in aerial combat over North Vietnam in April 1967. Within a few days of his heroics on his Medal of Honor mission, Col. Thorsness was shot down over North Vietnam and taken into captivity. In captivity he was tortured by the North Vietnamese for 18 straight days and periodically thereafter until his release in 1973.
Col. Thorsness recounts his experiences in Surviving Hell: A POW’s Journey, about which I wrote at length here. In its own modest way, it is a great and timely book.
Thinking of Memorial Day in the context of current controversies, Col. Thorsness wrote the folllowing column:
Think Memorial Day and veterans usually come to mind. Think veterans and our national debate about torture comes to mind.
Of the 350 “old timer” Vietnam POWs, the majority were severely tortured by the North Vietnamese. Ironically the Department of Defense did not formally study torture after the POWs were released in 1973. We provided our military an actual “torture database library” but to this day, the Pentagon has never tapped the resource to help clarify national debate about “what is torture.”
I and many other Vietnam POWs were tortured severely – some were tortured to death. Several POWs wrote books after our release in 1973 describing the torture in detail. Mike McGrath’s book had extensive drawings vividly depicting types of torture the North Vietnamese used. (A gallery of McGrath’s drawings is accessible here.)
When I wrote Surviving Hell in 2008, initially I did not include discussions of torture, knowing that others had earlier described it. My editors encouraged me to add it; if our younger population reads only current books, they may perceive that the treatment at Abu Grab and Gitmo was real torture. I added my experience being tortured so that readers will know that there is abuse and humiliation, and there is torture.
If someone surveyed the surviving Vietnam POWs, we would likely not agree on one definition of torture. In fact, we wouldn’t agree if waterboarding is torture. For example, John McCain, Bud Day and I were recently together. Bud is one of the toughest and most tortured Vietnam POWs. John thinks waterboarding is torture; Bud and I believe it is harsh treatment, but not torture. Other POWs would have varying opinions. I don’t claim to be right; we just disagree. But as someone who has been severely tortured over an extended time, my first hand view on torture is this:
Torture, when used by an expert, can produce useful, truthful information. I base that on my experience. I believe that during torture, there is a narrow “window of truth” as pain (often multiple kinds) is increased. Beyond that point, if torture increases, the person breaks, or dies if he continues to resist.
Everyone has a different physical and mental threshold of pain that he can tolerate. If the interrogator is well trained he can identify when that point is reached – the point when if slightly more pain is inflicted, a person no longer can “hold out,” just giving (following the Geneva Convention) name, rank, serial number and date of birth. At that precise point, a very narrow torture “window of truth” exists. At that moment a person may give useful or truthful information to stop the pain. As slightly more pain is applied, the person “loses it” and will say anything he thinks will stop the torture – any lie, any story, and any random words or sounds
This torture “window of truth” is theory to some. Having been there, it is fact to me. While in torture I had the sickening feeling deep within my soul that maybe I would tell the truth as that horrendous pain increased. It is unpleasant, but I can still dredge up the memory of that window of truth feeling as the pain level intensified.
Our world is not completely good or evil. To proclaim we will never use any form of enhanced interrogations causes our friends to think we are naïve and eases our enemies’ recruitment of radical terrorists to plot attacks on innocent kids, men and women – or any infidel. If I were to catch a “mad bomber” running away from an explosive I would not hesitate a second to use “enhanced interrogation,” including waterboarding, if it would save lives of innocent people.
Our naïveté does not impress radical terrorists like those who slit the throat of Daniel Pearl in 2002 simply because he was Jewish, and broadcast the sight and sound of his dying gurgling. Publicizing our enhanced interrogation techniques only emboldens those who will hurt us.
[/QUOTE
So....Don'tTazMeBro.....do you want to debate this man?[/QUOTE]
Leo Thorsness Torture thoughts on Memorial Day Power Line
Leo Thorsness is the Minnesota native who was awarded the Medal of Honor for unbelievable heroics in aerial combat over North Vietnam in April 1967. Within a few days of his heroics on his Medal of Honor mission, Col. Thorsness was shot down over North Vietnam and taken into captivity. In captivity he was tortured by the North Vietnamese for 18 straight days and periodically thereafter until his release in 1973.
Col. Thorsness recounts his experiences in Surviving Hell: A POW’s Journey, about which I wrote at length here. In its own modest way, it is a great and timely book.
Thinking of Memorial Day in the context of current controversies, Col. Thorsness wrote the folllowing column:
Think Memorial Day and veterans usually come to mind. Think veterans and our national debate about torture comes to mind.
Of the 350 “old timer” Vietnam POWs, the majority were severely tortured by the North Vietnamese. Ironically the Department of Defense did not formally study torture after the POWs were released in 1973. We provided our military an actual “torture database library” but to this day, the Pentagon has never tapped the resource to help clarify national debate about “what is torture.”
I and many other Vietnam POWs were tortured severely – some were tortured to death. Several POWs wrote books after our release in 1973 describing the torture in detail. Mike McGrath’s book had extensive drawings vividly depicting types of torture the North Vietnamese used. (A gallery of McGrath’s drawings is accessible here.)
When I wrote Surviving Hell in 2008, initially I did not include discussions of torture, knowing that others had earlier described it. My editors encouraged me to add it; if our younger population reads only current books, they may perceive that the treatment at Abu Grab and Gitmo was real torture. I added my experience being tortured so that readers will know that there is abuse and humiliation, and there is torture.
If someone surveyed the surviving Vietnam POWs, we would likely not agree on one definition of torture. In fact, we wouldn’t agree if waterboarding is torture. For example, John McCain, Bud Day and I were recently together. Bud is one of the toughest and most tortured Vietnam POWs. John thinks waterboarding is torture; Bud and I believe it is harsh treatment, but not torture. Other POWs would have varying opinions. I don’t claim to be right; we just disagree. But as someone who has been severely tortured over an extended time, my first hand view on torture is this:
Torture, when used by an expert, can produce useful, truthful information. I base that on my experience. I believe that during torture, there is a narrow “window of truth” as pain (often multiple kinds) is increased. Beyond that point, if torture increases, the person breaks, or dies if he continues to resist.
Everyone has a different physical and mental threshold of pain that he can tolerate. If the interrogator is well trained he can identify when that point is reached – the point when if slightly more pain is inflicted, a person no longer can “hold out,” just giving (following the Geneva Convention) name, rank, serial number and date of birth. At that precise point, a very narrow torture “window of truth” exists. At that moment a person may give useful or truthful information to stop the pain. As slightly more pain is applied, the person “loses it” and will say anything he thinks will stop the torture – any lie, any story, and any random words or sounds
This torture “window of truth” is theory to some. Having been there, it is fact to me. While in torture I had the sickening feeling deep within my soul that maybe I would tell the truth as that horrendous pain increased. It is unpleasant, but I can still dredge up the memory of that window of truth feeling as the pain level intensified.
Our world is not completely good or evil. To proclaim we will never use any form of enhanced interrogations causes our friends to think we are naïve and eases our enemies’ recruitment of radical terrorists to plot attacks on innocent kids, men and women – or any infidel. If I were to catch a “mad bomber” running away from an explosive I would not hesitate a second to use “enhanced interrogation,” including waterboarding, if it would save lives of innocent people.
Our naïveté does not impress radical terrorists like those who slit the throat of Daniel Pearl in 2002 simply because he was Jewish, and broadcast the sight and sound of his dying gurgling. Publicizing our enhanced interrogation techniques only emboldens those who will hurt us.
[/QUOTE
So....Don'tTazMeBro.....do you want to debate this man?[/QUOTE]
2aguy
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Here is a look at men who actually were tortured...and waterboarded....both while in Pilot training and by the communists in vietnam...I think you could say they are experts in what torture is and isn't....don't you....
McCain rsquo s fellow POWs support waterboarding - PostPartisan - The Washington Post
I interviewed many of them, including Col. Bud Day, who received our nation’s highest award for valor, the Medal of Honor, for his heroic escape from a North Vietnamese prison camp. When Day was returned to the prison, his right arm was broken in three places and he had been shot in the hand and thigh during his capture. But he continued to resist interrogation and provide false information — suffering such excruciating torture that he became totally physically debilitated and unable to perform even the simplest task for himself. In short, Day is an expert on the subject of torture. Here is what he says about CIA waterboarding:
“I am a supporter of waterboarding. It is not torture. Torture is really hurting someone. Waterboarding is just scaring someone, with no long-term injurious effects. It is a scare tactic that works.”
I asked Day in an e-mail what he would say to the CIA officer who waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed, if he had the chance to speak with him. Day replied immediately: “YOU DID THE RIGHT THING.”
McCain rsquo s fellow POWs support waterboarding - PostPartisan - The Washington Post
I interviewed many of them, including Col. Bud Day, who received our nation’s highest award for valor, the Medal of Honor, for his heroic escape from a North Vietnamese prison camp. When Day was returned to the prison, his right arm was broken in three places and he had been shot in the hand and thigh during his capture. But he continued to resist interrogation and provide false information — suffering such excruciating torture that he became totally physically debilitated and unable to perform even the simplest task for himself. In short, Day is an expert on the subject of torture. Here is what he says about CIA waterboarding:
“I am a supporter of waterboarding. It is not torture. Torture is really hurting someone. Waterboarding is just scaring someone, with no long-term injurious effects. It is a scare tactic that works.”
I asked Day in an e-mail what he would say to the CIA officer who waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammed, if he had the chance to speak with him. Day replied immediately: “YOU DID THE RIGHT THING.”
2aguy
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And another man who was actually tortured....you could say he is also an expert in what torture is and isn't....since he too was waterboarded in his training as a pilot....
So, Don'tTazMeBro....you want to know what people who have actually been tortured think about waterboarding....there are 4 examples in this article....they say waterboarding is not torture...and they know the difference.....and that they would do it to these monsters without hesitation....
So, Don'tTazMeBro....you want to know what people who have actually been tortured think about waterboarding....there are 4 examples in this article....they say waterboarding is not torture...and they know the difference.....and that they would do it to these monsters without hesitation....
2aguy
Diamond Member
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Don'tTazMeBro...this is Colonel Bud Day's recounting of actual torture....he is one of the most decorated officers in our history....he was waterboarded as part of his pilot training...and tortured by the communists....this is what they did...compare and contrast....You should read the entire account.....he is an expert on what torture is and isn't....and supports waterboarding these terrorists...
Medal Of Honor Winner Col. Bud Day 8212 American Hero Veterans News Now
I got shot down over N Vietnam in 1967. I was a Squadron. Commander. After I returned in 1973, after five years of punishing torture, I published 2 books that dealt a lot With “real torture” in Hanoi. PRESIDENT OBAMA has branded our country as a bunch of torturers when he has NO IDEA WHAT TORTURE IS! Let me inform him what real torture is about.
I was put thru a mock execution because I would not respond to the Communist interrogators. Exhausted, they pistol whipped me on the head. A couple of days later, I was hung by my feet all day. I escaped the prison into the jungles with not food and little waterand a couple of weeks later, I got shot and recaptured. Being shot was OK…what happened afterwards was not.
They marched me to Vinh…..put me in the rope trick; that trick almost pulled my arms out of the sockets. Then, they beat me on the head with a little wooden rod until my eyes were swelled shut, and my unshot, unbroken hand was beaten to a pulp.
The next day hung me by the arms…rebroke my right wrist…wiped out the nerves in my arms that control the hands, and my fingers rolled p into a ball. I was only left with the slightest movement of my left forefinger. So I started answering the torturing asses with some incredible lies.
The frustrated Commie gooks then sent me to Hanoi strapped to a barrel of gas in the back of a truck. Now in the Hanoi Hilton (our name for the horrible prison) I was once again I was placed kneeling on my knees again before they did the shoulder rope trick on me again. Following my no response, I was beaten severely by a big fool.
When that failed, they strapped me with leg irons onto a bed in Heartbreak Hotel.
I spent much of my ‘out of leg iron’ time held in a kneeling position. There was so much kneeling—hands up at Zoo.
In the middle of this arduous process, I took some really bad beatings for refusing to condemn Lyndon Johnson.
Following several more inescapable kneeling events. I could see my knee bones through Kneeling holes in my skin.
Once there was a prisoner escape from the annex to the Zoo. I was the Senior Officer of a large building… because of escape…they started a mass Torture of all commanders.
I think it was July 7, 1969…they started beating me with a car fan belt. In the first 2 days I took over 300 strokes…then stopped counting because I never thought I would live thru it.
They continued day-night torture to get me to confess to a non-existent part in the escape. This went on for at least 3 days. On my knees… fan belting…cut open my scrotum with one fan belt stroke. Opened up both knee skin holes again with my kneecaps showing. My fanny looked like hamburger…I could not lie on my back, even with the leg irons on me.
They tortured me into admitting that I was in on the escape…and that my 2 room-mates knew about it.
The next day I denied the lie.
They commenced torturing me again with 3- 6- or 9 strokes of the fan belt every day from about July 11 or 12th.to 14 October 1969. I continued to refuse to lie about my roommates again.
Now, the point of this is that our make-believe President has declared to the world that we (U.S..) are a bunch of torturers… …thus it will be OK to torture us next time when they catch us…because that is what the U.S. does.
Our make-believe president is a know nothing fool who thinks that pouring a little water on some one’s face, or hanging a pair of women’s pants over an Arabs head is TORTURE.. He is a meathead.
I just talked to MOH holder Leo Thorsness, who was also in my squadron, In jail…as was John McCain…and we agree that McCain does Not speak for the POW group when he claims that Al Ghraib was Torture…or that “water boarding” is torture.
Our president and those fools around him who keep bad mouthing our great country are a disgrace to the United States. Please pass this info on to Sean Hannity. He is free to use it to point out the stupidity of the claims that water boarding…which has no after-effect…is torture. If it got the Arab to cough up the story about how he planned the attack on the twin towers in NYC … Hurrah for the guy who poured the water!
Medal Of Honor Winner Col. Bud Day 8212 American Hero Veterans News Now
I got shot down over N Vietnam in 1967. I was a Squadron. Commander. After I returned in 1973, after five years of punishing torture, I published 2 books that dealt a lot With “real torture” in Hanoi. PRESIDENT OBAMA has branded our country as a bunch of torturers when he has NO IDEA WHAT TORTURE IS! Let me inform him what real torture is about.
I was put thru a mock execution because I would not respond to the Communist interrogators. Exhausted, they pistol whipped me on the head. A couple of days later, I was hung by my feet all day. I escaped the prison into the jungles with not food and little waterand a couple of weeks later, I got shot and recaptured. Being shot was OK…what happened afterwards was not.
They marched me to Vinh…..put me in the rope trick; that trick almost pulled my arms out of the sockets. Then, they beat me on the head with a little wooden rod until my eyes were swelled shut, and my unshot, unbroken hand was beaten to a pulp.
The next day hung me by the arms…rebroke my right wrist…wiped out the nerves in my arms that control the hands, and my fingers rolled p into a ball. I was only left with the slightest movement of my left forefinger. So I started answering the torturing asses with some incredible lies.
The frustrated Commie gooks then sent me to Hanoi strapped to a barrel of gas in the back of a truck. Now in the Hanoi Hilton (our name for the horrible prison) I was once again I was placed kneeling on my knees again before they did the shoulder rope trick on me again. Following my no response, I was beaten severely by a big fool.
When that failed, they strapped me with leg irons onto a bed in Heartbreak Hotel.
I spent much of my ‘out of leg iron’ time held in a kneeling position. There was so much kneeling—hands up at Zoo.
In the middle of this arduous process, I took some really bad beatings for refusing to condemn Lyndon Johnson.
Following several more inescapable kneeling events. I could see my knee bones through Kneeling holes in my skin.
Once there was a prisoner escape from the annex to the Zoo. I was the Senior Officer of a large building… because of escape…they started a mass Torture of all commanders.
I think it was July 7, 1969…they started beating me with a car fan belt. In the first 2 days I took over 300 strokes…then stopped counting because I never thought I would live thru it.
They continued day-night torture to get me to confess to a non-existent part in the escape. This went on for at least 3 days. On my knees… fan belting…cut open my scrotum with one fan belt stroke. Opened up both knee skin holes again with my kneecaps showing. My fanny looked like hamburger…I could not lie on my back, even with the leg irons on me.
They tortured me into admitting that I was in on the escape…and that my 2 room-mates knew about it.
The next day I denied the lie.
They commenced torturing me again with 3- 6- or 9 strokes of the fan belt every day from about July 11 or 12th.to 14 October 1969. I continued to refuse to lie about my roommates again.
Now, the point of this is that our make-believe President has declared to the world that we (U.S..) are a bunch of torturers… …thus it will be OK to torture us next time when they catch us…because that is what the U.S. does.
Our make-believe president is a know nothing fool who thinks that pouring a little water on some one’s face, or hanging a pair of women’s pants over an Arabs head is TORTURE.. He is a meathead.
I just talked to MOH holder Leo Thorsness, who was also in my squadron, In jail…as was John McCain…and we agree that McCain does Not speak for the POW group when he claims that Al Ghraib was Torture…or that “water boarding” is torture.
Our president and those fools around him who keep bad mouthing our great country are a disgrace to the United States. Please pass this info on to Sean Hannity. He is free to use it to point out the stupidity of the claims that water boarding…which has no after-effect…is torture. If it got the Arab to cough up the story about how he planned the attack on the twin towers in NYC … Hurrah for the guy who poured the water!
2aguy
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Here is the 4th Vietnam War POW who was tortured by the communists/socialists.....so, 4 out of 5 Vietnam Pows support water boarding these terrorists....and agree that waterboarding, though harsh, is not torture.....and they should know...they were waterboarded in training in the military....and tortured as POWs against the Geneva Convention....
Another Vietnam POW for waterboarding AEI
Former prisoner of war Lee Ellis explained the difference between the torture he experienced during the Vietnam War and modern-day waterboarding, and said that if he were president, he would approve the use of waterboarding.
“In waterboarding, you’re trying to find out the truth that’s going to save a lot of lives,” Ellis explained to The Daily Caller’s Ginni Thomas. “What the communists did to us was torture us to say a lie, to make a statement against our government, to make propaganda for their cause to defeat our country. So to me, there’s a huge difference there.”
“And waterboarding is not going to kill somebody. The idea is that they think they’re going to be killed, but obviously they’re not. We’re not going to let them die,” he continued…. “I think it can get us the information that may save thousands of lives, and if I were the commander in that situation, I would approve it and I would have it done,” Ellis said. “Use it very carefully — wisdom always helps — but I would certainly do it.”
Another Vietnam POW for waterboarding AEI
Former prisoner of war Lee Ellis explained the difference between the torture he experienced during the Vietnam War and modern-day waterboarding, and said that if he were president, he would approve the use of waterboarding.
“In waterboarding, you’re trying to find out the truth that’s going to save a lot of lives,” Ellis explained to The Daily Caller’s Ginni Thomas. “What the communists did to us was torture us to say a lie, to make a statement against our government, to make propaganda for their cause to defeat our country. So to me, there’s a huge difference there.”
“And waterboarding is not going to kill somebody. The idea is that they think they’re going to be killed, but obviously they’re not. We’re not going to let them die,” he continued…. “I think it can get us the information that may save thousands of lives, and if I were the commander in that situation, I would approve it and I would have it done,” Ellis said. “Use it very carefully — wisdom always helps — but I would certainly do it.”
2aguy
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Don'tTazMeBro....the former POWs are experts on torture...from the real world....they were all 4 waterboarded in pilot training and then mercilessly tortured by the communists in Vietnam.....do you want to debate these men on wether or not waterboarding is torture...do you think you, or any of those democrat senators know more than they do about torture?
georgephillip
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #71
You got any proof of that?
"Abu Wa’el Dhiab is a devoted husband and father of three children. When his family fled the instability in Kabul in 2002, he was abducted by Pakistani authorities and handed over to US forces. He was then taken to Guantánamo, where he was held without charge or trial for 12 years."
Twelve ******* years with no charges filed.
Where's your "substantial evidence", War-Whore?
Reprieve - Abu Wa 8217 el Dhiab
hipeter924
Not a zombie yet
Probably more innocent victims we don't know about. Especially since hypothetically the US could have foreign detention centers as well.
ninja007
Gold Member
sort of like black thugs...
ninja007
Gold Member
well why was he being tortured for 6 years under Obama? And why isn't Gitmo closed as Barry promised?
georgephillip
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #75
"Younous (Abdurrahman Chekkouri) was working for a youth charity in Afghanistan when he was rounded up with other Arabs and taken to a prison in Kandahar.
"He was sold to US forces for a bounty and then taken to Guantánamo Bay. He has been held in the prison without charge since 2002..."
"He was declared an ‘enemy combatant’ and taken to Guantánamo. After Reprieve took up his case, six US federal agencies unanimously agreed to clear him for release in 2009, but Younous remains in detention."
Reprieve - Younous Abdurrahman Chekkouri
2aguy
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yes....and the Innocence Project here in Illinois got an innocent man to lie about committing a murder to get the real killer off of death row and released from prison...
Excuse me if I don't trust you liberals on anything....your moral compasses are so broken they can't be repaired.....it takes a lot of vetting to get to gitmo....and yet we are to trust the word of libs on this guy....
007
Charter Member
Never seen such RABID DEFENSE of TERRORISTS by the left, while VILIFYING and UNDERMINING our own people working to defend us.
WHY do the left live here?
Why don't all these lovers of terrorists go LIVE with the people they LOVE?
It boils down to...
TERRORISTS - GOOD, they're innocent, loving, peaceful, normal, family men.
CIA/FBI/AMERICAN MILITARY - BAD, they're all the ACTUAL TERRORISTS, KILLERS, MEANIE TORTURERS and HORRIBLE PEOPLE!
The DISCONNECT and TWISTED, ANTI AMERICAN, TREASONOUS BULL SHIT that comes from the left should make any NORMAL American citizen SICK.
Progtards are truly DISGUSTING, AMERICA HATING TRASH.
WHY do the left live here?
Why don't all these lovers of terrorists go LIVE with the people they LOVE?
It boils down to...
TERRORISTS - GOOD, they're innocent, loving, peaceful, normal, family men.
CIA/FBI/AMERICAN MILITARY - BAD, they're all the ACTUAL TERRORISTS, KILLERS, MEANIE TORTURERS and HORRIBLE PEOPLE!
The DISCONNECT and TWISTED, ANTI AMERICAN, TREASONOUS BULL SHIT that comes from the left should make any NORMAL American citizen SICK.
Progtards are truly DISGUSTING, AMERICA HATING TRASH.
2aguy
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This is why I don't trust libs...ever....they lie....to the benefit of evil...this story is how the vaunted Innocence Project freed a killer....to fight the death penalty in Illinois...
Wrongly Imprisoned for 15 Years Thanks to an Innocence Project - The Daily Beast
What did anthony porter do....
Think about what these libtards did to free this monster....and yet we have to trust them on the monsters at gitmo...who, according to them, are all gentle sheep herders rounded up by evil Americans....screw them....
Wrongly Imprisoned for 15 Years Thanks to an Innocence Project - The Daily Beast
What did anthony porter do....
Think about what these libtards did to free this monster....and yet we have to trust them on the monsters at gitmo...who, according to them, are all gentle sheep herders rounded up by evil Americans....screw them....
Last edited:
georgephillip
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #79
Exactly how much vetting does it take to get to gitmo?
2aguy
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I heard the process from someone involved in it on a radio interview....it was a while ago, and you can probably find it somewhere else for sure, but here is some of what I remember....
The prisoner is captured on the battlefield and initially questioned by the miltiary...then if it is determined they should be held they are handed over to the next level, where they put the question of what to do with the guy to the next level in the military, then it goes to the area commander, the to the theater commander who calls washington, where they go over what they know and then it goes to specialists in this area of prisoners and determining if the guy is gitmo worthy, and after all of these safe guards, if it is determined they are actually terrorists...they are shipped to gitmo...and even then, there is congressional oversight every couple of years to review their status...
We just don't scoop up gentle sheep herders and throw them in gitmo...that is another liberal lie....as is proven by the number of these guys recaptured after they have been released from gitmo....like the head of isis...I think he used to be held in gitmo...wasn't he?
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