Zone1 Embryos and Personhood

[NotfooledbyW]

Fetal viability

Fetal viability and infant/baby viability are two separate and distinct facets of viability.

The human brain is not fully developed until adulthood.

So think of fetal viability in terms of brain function.

A fetus at 22 weeks has just barely crossed a critical threshold by having a sufficient cardio vascular muscle and nerve system with which brain activity can send signals and recieve data to keep heart and lung activity operstional if for any reason separation from the mother’s life support system must be achieved,

Prior to that incomplete brain function or capability in a fetus is scientifically considered not viable.

 

[mamooth]

Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

Since all those books say something that's provably wrong, why should I pay any attention to them?

Your authorities are stupid, so your appeal-to-authority doesn't work.

 

[mamooth]

My bad. Property to be disposed of. Better?

Well, no. You're just getting loopier.

Why is it so important for you to make up fake reasons to demonize us? Why are you so emotionally invested in doing that?

 

[Curried Goats]

My bad. Property to be disposed of. Better?

Why are you regressing? I thought we already established it as unique human life. Now with that settled humans have a right to be free from unwanted force and touch from other humans, isn't that right?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Well, no. You're just getting loopier.

Why is it so important for you to make up fake reasons to demonize us? Why are you so emotionally invested in doing that?

My observation is he is a Catholic who believes all Western Civilization is owed to Catholics. So he is better than everyone else who is not as Catholic as he thinks he is. Biden is not the right kind of Catholic so he knows the good ones from the evil Communist ones.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

How long what lasts?

Abortion will be a protected right through viability in Florida like in Ohio and Kansas.

It’s on the November Ballot.

The death of the Republican Party has a fifty fifty chance of beginning in Florida with an energized Democratic Party and money flowing in to Win this ballot initiative.

I doubt that it will be the end of the Republican party.

CHUCKLE

 

[Damaged Eagle]

You will sunset the Republican Party over a few pennies of your tax payments going to assistance with an abortion.

My gratitude for your Custer’s Last Stand shall be eternal.

Just because you consider it a right doesn't mean money has to be thrown at it.

SMILE

 

[ding]

Since all those books say something that's provably wrong, why should I pay any attention to them?

Your authorities are stupid, so your appeal-to-authority doesn't work.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Limit it to birth. Birth confers rights without question. Before then, it is a question of competing rights and that of the woman takes precedence until it can survive outside the womb.

Why should I buy into that?

The fact that the child exists inside or outside the womb makes it a unique entity.

SMILE

 

[Damaged Eagle]

You know our position is that a fetus is not a child. We've told you that many times. You can't plead ignorance.

So why do you keep deliberately lying about our position?

If you can't argue against what we actually say, just admit it. It's not like you're fooling anyone with the strawmen.

Well I guess if the fetus just a tumor to you and the rest pro-choice crowd we can start eliminating all those things like maternity leave and such and you can just take sick days and vacation time for when you're pregnant.

SMILE

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Thank you for proving my point.

Your point is a zygote is the beginning of a new human being with no brain or consciousness; then knowing that, Saint Ding , so what?

Debating the connections between abortion and race in the Dobbs opinion, Justice Alito noted there is an argument that the restrictive abortion laws adopted after the Civil War were meant to bolster the white, Protestant birthrate. But he dismisses that claim, saying words to the effect that It’s quite a leap to attribute these motives to all the male white Protestant legislators whose votes were responsible for the new laws.

t’s a fucking leap the way Alito jumps off the tracks of legitimacy in analyzing law and rights of women who are born and adult.

It should be noted that Protestant leaders supported Roe v. Wade in 1973. Alito can’t convince me that protestants in 1880 were concerned about the life of the fetus before viability.

The AMA in the 19th Century was interested in restricting abortion because the doctors wanted to take abortion out of the hands of midwives.

Instead, he writes, “there is ample evidence” that anti-abortion laws were “spurred by a sincere belief that abortion kills a human being.”

That is not speculation supreme Court Justice should be touching.

I believe he rewrote the history of the last half of the 19th century from his present Catholic biblical worldview.

Therefore Alito has injected religion in a space where it should not exist.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

I doubt that it will be the end of the Republican party.

See Saint Ding is reduced to “emo”. - a good sign the end of the Republican MAGA. Disaster is nigh.

 

[ViewFromAbove]

The recent ruling by an Alabama judge has ignited a firestorm in both sides of the reproductive rights community: frozen embryos have full legal personhood rights. This has split Republican lawmakers who are, on the one hand applauding the decision while simultaneously scrambling to enact legislation to carve out a niche for IVF by redefining when an embryo is considered a person.

Florida proposed an amendment to a legislative bill being considered:​

Republican lawmakers in Florida had proposed an amendment to the bill, the same week as the Alabama ruling, to define “unborn child” as a human “at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.” The change would likely protect IVF patients and doctors, but it remains uncertain whether it would be in any final version the full Legislature were to vote on.​

That raises questions too.

The issue of abortion is one of competing rights: weighing a woman’s right to bodily autonomy against a fetus’ right to life. But with frozen embryos, there are no competing rights.

So what exactly does this mean?

• With abortion does ”full personhood” mean that unless a woman is at death’s door, she cannot act to save her life?
• Does it mean every miscarriage is a potential crime scene?
• Will embryos be claimed as dependents on taxes? Will they get child support?
• Will they even be US citizens? Isn’t birth/born a stipulation there?

With frozen embryos it is even more tricky:

• How can an embryo, implanted in a uterus be given “personhood” rights while an identical embryo, that is frozen, not be?
• Will fathers of frozen embryos be liable for child support for each one?
• If they must remain stored into perpetuity…who pays?
• Can you claim them as dependents?
• If something happens that accidently destroys hundreds of stored embryos…should the person responsible face hundreds of counts of homicide charges?

How can you ethically have a “carve out” for IVF embryos but not implanted embryos?

Note: I put this in CDZ to hopefully have a real discussion as this latest ruling moves the debate beyond abortion.

Personhood for embryos is ridiculous. Talk about extremism!?
Will an embryo get a SSN?
What about all those zygotes that die naturally, as in miscarriage or earlier, which may be 40-50% of all conceptions? Will that also be a concern?

 

[Coyote]

View attachment 926201

Why should I buy into that?

The fact that the child exists inside or outside the womb makes it a unique entity.

SMILE

Every living thing is a unique entity. It doesn’t automatically confer rights. Particularly over and above that of the woman whose body that is hosting it.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Every living thing is a unique entity. It doesn’t automatically confer rights. Particularly over and above that of the woman whose body that is hosting it.

I'm fine with trashing maternal rights since it's just a tumor.

SMILE

 

[Damaged Eagle]

See Saint Ding is reduced to “emo”. - a good sign the end of the Republican MAGA. Disaster is nigh.

If you're going to call me Saint Ding I've got a contract you can sign and read later after I mail you the copy.

CHUCKLE

 

[NotfooledbyW]

If you're going to call me Saint Ding

You are not Saint Ding. You are Saint Damagedeagle. I identify you as saints because you are are advocates for the saving baby fetus cult worldwide.

 

[Coyote]

View attachment 926272

I'm fine with trashing maternal rights since it's just a tumor.

SMILE

No.

 

[Kruska]

No it doesn't. That an individuals responsibility.

And everyone -aside from you, knows that people in general avoid taking responsibility for their actions - that is why we have LAWS!!.

Good. Abortions aren't the governments responsibility.

They become the governments responsibility once an abortion is requested and e.g. DENIED due to an embryo being more then 8 weeks old. - thus forcefully ending a life - aka murder!!.

Tell me, did you ever hold a lab-tube with your Child (11 week old embryo) ?? - due to a miscarriage suffered by my wife. Obviously not and therefore it is also obvious that you don't know what you talk about - just some senseless and errant propagating of "Freedom". and irresponsible behavior.

If a woman wants an abortion she's free to get it on her dime.

Only in view of the existing law. e.g. 8 weeks. Personally I fully agree that if a birth/embryo endangers a mothers life - she is free to protect her own life. The law even permits this - aka the right to defend ones own life.

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of the people who are born here.

Nothing to do with e.g. solely the USA - the most favored low-income workers (mostly illegal) in e.g. Malaysia come from Bangladesh.

Your promotion of slave labor and child trafficking is noted.

Where did I promote slave labor and child trafficking?? - you must be a MAGA idiot, and/or some Lefty/lib retard.

 

[Kruska]

Fetal viability and infant/baby viability are two separate and distinct facets of viability.

The human brain is not fully developed until adulthood.

Even for adults - I keep wondering as to what happened to a brains development - see your statements!

So think of fetal viability in terms of brain function.

A fetus at 22 weeks has just barely crossed a critical threshold by having a sufficient cardio vascular muscle and nerve system with which brain activity can send signals and recieve data to keep heart and lung activity operstional if for any reason separation from the mother’s life support system must be achieved,

Prior to that incomplete brain function or capability in a fetus is scientifically considered not viable.

This isn't about "complete" functions, but the protection of a beginning and future life.
That scientifically proven - kicks in from week 8 onward, with the heart beat and the development of consciousness. (aka brain).