Zone1 Embryos and Personhood

[Coyote]

The recent ruling by an Alabama judge has ignited a firestorm in both sides of the reproductive rights community: frozen embryos have full legal personhood rights. This has split Republican lawmakers who are, on the one hand applauding the decision while simultaneously scrambling to enact legislation to carve out a niche for IVF by redefining when an embryo is considered a person.

Florida proposed an amendment to a legislative bill being considered:​

Republican lawmakers in Florida had proposed an amendment to the bill, the same week as the Alabama ruling, to define “unborn child” as a human “at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.” The change would likely protect IVF patients and doctors, but it remains uncertain whether it would be in any final version the full Legislature were to vote on.​

That raises questions too.

The issue of abortion is one of competing rights: weighing a woman’s right to bodily autonomy against a fetus’ right to life. But with frozen embryos, there are no competing rights.

So what exactly does this mean?

• With abortion does ”full personhood” mean that unless a woman is at death’s door, she cannot act to save her life?
• Does it mean every miscarriage is a potential crime scene?
• Will embryos be claimed as dependents on taxes? Will they get child support?
• Will they even be US citizens? Isn’t birth/born a stipulation there?

With frozen embryos it is even more tricky:

• How can an embryo, implanted in a uterus be given “personhood” rights while an identical embryo, that is frozen, not be?
• Will fathers of frozen embryos be liable for child support for each one?
• If they must remain stored into perpetuity…who pays?
• Can you claim them as dependents?
• If something happens that accidently destroys hundreds of stored embryos…should the person responsible face hundreds of counts of homicide charges?

How can you ethically have a “carve out” for IVF embryos but not implanted embryos?

Note: I put this in CDZ to hopefully have a real discussion as this latest ruling moves the debate beyond abortion.

 

[1srelluc]

The whole deal is as fucked-up as a football bat.

 

[Rambunctious]

This got started by a women who walked into a freezer and dropped some embryos and destroyed them... the donors or parents if you will asked to sue for wrongful death... the judge said yes you may... this is all that is... the left and their media of course want to try and link it to abortion rights and it has nothing to do with that...
Trump to his credit didn't fall for it...

 

[EvilCat Breath]

This is really a complicated mess of legal gobbledygook. Of course no woman's life is at risk. No one is pregnant. It is undisputed that the embryos are human beings in an embryonic state of development. It is undisputed that they will never develop beyond that stage without extensive medical intervention.

For the record care of frozen embryos are tax deductible as a medical expense. The storage of both sperm and eggs is also tax deductible. These are medical expenses.

This is really an awful ruling by judges that seem not to know very much.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

This got started by a women who walked into a freezer and dropped some embryos and destroyed them... the donors or parents if you will asked to sue for wrongful death... the judge said yes you may... this is all that is... the left and their media of course want to try and link it to abortion rights and it has nothing to do with that...
Trump to his credit didn't fall for it...

For the purposes of negligence there can be some kind of ground to assess damages.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The recent ruling by an Alabama judge has ignited a firestorm in both sides of the reproductive rights community: frozen embryos have full legal personhood rights. This has split Republican lawmakers who are, on the one hand applauding the decision while simultaneously scrambling to enact legislation to carve out a niche for IVF by redefining when an embryo is considered a person.

Florida proposed an amendment to a legislative bill being considered:​

Republican lawmakers in Florida had proposed an amendment to the bill, the same week as the Alabama ruling, to define “unborn child” as a human “at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.” The change would likely protect IVF patients and doctors, but it remains uncertain whether it would be in any final version the full Legislature were to vote on.​

That raises questions too.

The issue of abortion is one of competing rights: weighing a woman’s right to bodily autonomy against a fetus’ right to life. But with frozen embryos, there are no competing rights.

So what exactly does this mean?

• With abortion does ”full personhood” mean that unless a woman is at death’s door, she cannot act to save her life?
• Does it mean every miscarriage is a potential crime scene?
• Will embryos be claimed as dependents on taxes? Will they get child support?
• Will they even be US citizens? Isn’t birth/born a stipulation there?

With frozen embryos it is even more tricky:

• How can an embryo, implanted in a uterus be given “personhood” rights while an identical embryo, that is frozen, not be?
• Will fathers of frozen embryos be liable for child support for each one?
• If they must remain stored into perpetuity…who pays?
• Can you claim them as dependents?
• If something happens that accidently destroys hundreds of stored embryos…should the person responsible face hundreds of counts of homicide charges?

How can you ethically have a “carve out” for IVF embryos but not implanted embryos?

Note: I put this in CDZ to hopefully have a real discussion as this latest ruling moves the debate beyond abortion.

The questions raised in the OP illustrate the poor and inconsistent ‘reasoning’ both with regard to the ‘personhood’ status of frozen embryos and absolute abortion bans.

Indeed, in order to be consistent, those who advocate for such wrongheaded policies should also seek to prohibit the use of birth control pills and IUDs, which would be just as reckless and irresponsible.

 

[Zincwarrior]

It is a logical extension of the view that human protectable life starts at conception.

In states that adopt this, IVF is no more.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

It is a logical extension of the view that human protectable life starts at conception.

In states that adopt this, IVF is no more.

Which further documents the hypocrisy and inconsistency of those who hold such a flawed position, the proposed Florida amendment being an example of that.

In fact, such ‘carve outs’ undermine the legitimacy of ‘personhood at conception’ dogma in an effort to keep IVF legal.

If ‘personhood’ manifests at conception, then it makes no difference whether the embryo has implanted in the uterine wall or not – those who believe that ‘personhood’ begins at fertilization can’t have it both ways.

 

[Zincwarrior]

Which further documents the hypocrisy and inconsistency of those who hold such a flawed position, the proposed Florida amendment being an example of that.

In fact, such ‘carve outs’ undermine the legitimacy of ‘personhood at conception’ dogma in an effort to keep IVF legal.

If ‘personhood’ manifests at conception, then it makes no difference whether the embryo has implanted in the uterine wall or not – those who believe that ‘personhood’ begins at fertilization can’t have it both ways.

Except that they are just cells unless implanted. What now?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

This got started by a women who walked into a freezer and dropped some embryos and destroyed them... the donors or parents if you will asked to sue for wrongful death... the judge said yes you may... this is all that is... the left and their media of course want to try and link it to abortion rights and it has nothing to do with that...
Trump to his credit didn't fall for it...

You are so full of shit.

This is an issue that has been pushed for years by the anti choice crowd. They saw their opportunity and seized it.

Now it has been ruled in a court of law that frozen embryos are people. And so it remains, until legislation is passed saying otherwise in Alabama.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Except that they are just cells unless implanted. What now?

They’re still fertilized embryos, no different than frozen fertilized embryos.

Hence the hypocrisy and inconsistency: a frozen fertilized embryo and an embryo that’s implanted in the uterine wall both can’t be ‘persons’ – it’s one or the other.

 

[Rambunctious]

You are so full of shit.

This is an issue that has been pushed for years by the anti choice crowd. They saw their opportunity and seized it.

Now it has been ruled in a court of law that frozen embryos are people. And so it remains, until legislation is passed saying otherwise in Alabama.

That's a damn lie....

 

[alang1216]

This got started by a women who walked into a freezer and dropped some embryos and destroyed them... the donors or parents if you will asked to sue for wrongful death... the judge said yes you may... this is all that is... the left and their media of course want to try and link it to abortion rights and it has nothing to do with that...
Trump to his credit didn't fall for it...

To sue for wrongful death a human being must have been killed so, no, that is not all it is.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

This got started by a women who walked into a freezer and dropped some embryos and destroyed them... the donors or parents if you will asked to sue for wrongful death... the judge said yes you may... this is all that is... the left and their media of course want to try and link it to abortion rights and it has nothing to do with that...
Trump to his credit didn't fall for it...

It has every thing to female reproductive rights.

 

[MarathonMike]

A bizarre decision by one court. And a totally sole and separate issue from abortion. These are couples spending lots of money trying to have a baby. They are entitled to compensation if their frozen embryos are destroyed. Period.

 

[Rambunctious]

It has every thing to female reproductive rights.

These are people who are trying to have a baby... your cult of death won't work in this case....

 

[candycorn]

It is a logical extension of the view that human protectable life starts at conception.

In states that adopt this, IVF is no more.

Wouldn't those states have to amend everyone's birth certificate to make everyone 9 months older than they currently are if this is the case? If a woman has 20 embryos frozen...should she get tax breaks for having 20 kids? During a census, shouldn't there be (in her case) 20 more residents added to the state (assuming the freezer is in the same state she is)?

 

[candycorn]

You are so full of shit.

This is an issue that has been pushed for years by the anti choice crowd. They saw their opportunity and seized it.

Now it has been ruled in a court of law that frozen embryos are people. And so it remains, until legislation is passed saying otherwise in Alabama.

True.

Its just another in a long line of stumbling blocks we have to endure because the red states refuse to join us in the 2024 and stick to the archaic rituals (whenever they are convenient) of myths and pablum.

 

[initforme]

It seems now that Alabama is against people having kids.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

These are people who are trying to have a baby... your cult of death won't work in this case....

You don't understand the situation.