Zone1 Did you exist before you were born into this life?

[Meriweather]

While it is wild and outlandish. I do think that I am now getting your premise. You just assume without evidence that the alleged moral values contained in the commandments somehow came from "God" in a manner unknown, even though most of those morals were written down and codified long before the bible was written. I must admit this is certainly a new spin and invention that I hadn't heard before.

Hardly a "new spin". Passages is Paul's letters speak of God's law being written in the hearts of men; he also said people with no belief would be judged by their own hearts.

Perhaps you missed another rather lengthy post I made to another poster, where I informed him that morals are necessary for the proper and best life for humans, and the very survival of humanity itself most likely would not have happened if cave dwellers did not make their children fear various things. Those who did not believe their caveman father perished, whereas those who did believe lived. That fact created a gene pool of humans who believed their elders. Belief became ingrained in humans and especially belief in authority figures such as cave man dad and mom, the tribal chieftan, older and loud tribal members, and older siblings. All that morphed centuries later to belief in influential societal members, kings, queens, emperors, senators, and those who invented various gods such as Thor, Ra, Mithra.

No, I didn't miss it, nor did I need to do more than scan it. It was scarcely original.

Belief is in our genetic makeup, and it was convenient for leaders to just assert that the god of that time period could do magical things, and you better listen or that god would get angry and make you starve, create a drought, or strike you dead with lightning. Later, a god was invented who insisted that humans not kill, steal, covet a neighbor's wife, not believe in any other gods because he was jealous, not work on the Sabbath, etc.

You are aware, of course, of leaders who fight against the people's belief in God, so that they could set themselves up as the great controller of the people. People of faith find the path to true freedom. It's the ways of the world, not the ways of God that attempt to subjugate people. People of faith know this because we have experienced this freedom.

 

[lg325]

Great discussion all. I enjoyed reading the post. It is the best since I joined. Thankyou.

 

[Meriweather]

Great discussion all. I enjoyed reading the post. It is the best since I joined. Thankyou.

A thank you right back to you!

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Hardly a "new spin". Passages is Paul's letters speak of God's law being written in the hearts of men; he also said people with no belief would be judged by their own hearts.

No, I didn't miss it, nor did I need to do more than scan it. It was scarcely original.

You are aware, of course, of leaders who fight against the people's belief in God, so that they could set themselves up as the great controller of the people. People of faith find the path to true freedom. It's the ways of the world, not the ways of God that attempt to subjugate people. People of faith know this because we have experienced this freedom.

Why in the world should anyone listen to Paul? I just don't get it. You quote his alleged words as if he is somebody because he CLAIMED a vision. Remember what I told you about the need for people top believe their pappy and grandfathers and priests?

While my post about evolution and the need to believe may not be original, they are irrefutable.

It is YOUR church that uses "God" to control people. Not atheists.

 

[Meriweather]

Why in the world should anyone listen to Paul? I just don't get it. You quote his alleged words as if he is somebody because he CLAIMED a vision. Remember what I told you about the need for people top believe their pappy and grandfathers and priests?

When one seeks and finds God, experiences a miracle him/herself, miracles other people experience are not easily dismissed.

It is YOUR church that uses "God" to control people.

How is the Catholic Church controlling me?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

When one seeks and finds God, experiences a miracle him/herself, miracles other people experience are not easily dismissed.

How is the Catholic Church controlling me?

Add the word CLAIMS to every post of yours, and you will be correct.

 

[Meriweather]

CLAIMS

Oh, my--all caps. You must be desperate to steer clear of even any mention of miracles. I'll try to remember.

 

[Cougarbear]

'scriptural' is not evidence 1/4/1

~S~

So, trans people say they ended up in the wrong body. There's your evidence. I don't need empirical evidence for I know those scriptures are true based on faith and prayer.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Oh, my--all caps. You must be desperate to steer clear of even any mention of miracles. I'll try to remember.

Steer clear of miracles? They are stories in a book. CLAIMS.

 

[sparky]

So, trans people say they ended up in the wrong body. There's your evidence. I don't need empirical evidence for I know those scriptures are true based on faith and prayer.

faith does not require truth 1/4/1

~S~

 

[Meriweather]

CLAIMS.

What we see in others and in the things around us can often mirror what we see in ourselves. It can be a reflection of self. What are you claiming? (1) No God. (2) No miracles. (3) Bible presents God as cruel. Wouldn't you prefer for me/all/most to accept these as truth?

Let's start with my preference. No, I have no preference about whether you remain an atheist or return to your family's faith. You appear to see people of faith as blind. Consider for the moment that this may be a mirror of your own blindness. Just for a moment. Try to see what we see.

1. I was born into a family of atheists and a family of faith. I wanted to meet God just as other Biblical characters did. I was a mere toddler when I began seeking. Years later, I found. I experienced the living presence of God. Once found, this is something one can never deny or shut one's eyes to or turn one's back on. It would be like denying the earth, moon, and sun.

2. The same is true with miracles. Experience a miracle and miracles others experience cannot be easily dismissed. I experienced miracles so I have no grounds to dismiss the miracles of others.

3. When I was working with the Jewish atheists whose primary language was Hebrew, my confusions about how God was presented in the Old Testament and my own experiences seemed to be in stark contradiction. Its difficult to do with the King James English, but try to read it from God's point of view, the Hebrew point of view. An entirely different perspective emerges. Once that perspective emerges, it eclipses the modern, Western culture, King James version and shines forth.

Do You Hear What I Hear is a Christmas carol that also includes the question, Do you see what I see?

We, as a people, do not all see/perceive the same thing. You do not see what I see, what people of faith see. But that not the main difference between us. The true difference is that I accept you do not see what I see. I accept you do not see God and have reached the conclusion there is no God and that you must proclaim this conclusion to others. I accept you see God, as portrayed in the King James English, as cruel and I understand why you do. I understand you do not see miracles as you have had no miracles in your own life--and therefore, no one else could have miracles in their life either.

If I can accept you cannot see--and all your conclusions stem from this--can you accept many can answer the song's question of Do you see what I see? with a resounding, Yes...

One of my favorite quotes: A conclusion is the point where you stop thinking. Once more, I have no preference of whether you are an atheist or a person of faith. My preference is that you at least consider that as a people we do not all see/perceive the same thing the same way. Can you try to understand that what you do not see is still there for others to see?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

What we see in others and in the things around us can often mirror what we see in ourselves. It can be a reflection of self. What are you claiming? (1) No God. (2) No miracles. (3) Bible presents God as cruel. Wouldn't you prefer for me/all/most to accept these as truth?

Let's start with my preference. No, I have no preference about whether you remain an atheist or return to your family's faith. You appear to see people of faith as blind. Consider for the moment that this may be a mirror of your own blindness. Just for a moment. Try to see what we see.

1. I was born into a family of atheists and a family of faith. I wanted to meet God just as other Biblical characters did. I was a mere toddler when I began seeking. Years later, I found. I experienced the living presence of God. Once found, this is something one can never deny or shut one's eyes to or turn one's back on. It would be like denying the earth, moon, and sun.

2. The same is true with miracles. Experience a miracle and miracles others experience cannot be easily dismissed. I experienced miracles so I have no grounds to dismiss the miracles of others.

3. When I was working with the Jewish atheists whose primary language was Hebrew, my confusions about how God was presented in the Old Testament and my own experiences seemed to be in stark contradiction. Its difficult to do with the King James English, but try to read it from God's point of view, the Hebrew point of view. An entirely different perspective emerges. Once that perspective emerges, it eclipses the modern, Western culture, King James version and shines forth.

Do You Hear What I Hear is a Christmas carol that also includes the question, Do you see what I see?

We, as a people, do not all see/perceive the same thing. You do not see what I see, what people of faith see. But that not the main difference between us. The true difference is that I accept you do not see what I see. I accept you do not see God and have reached the conclusion there is no God and that you must proclaim this conclusion to others. I accept you see God, as portrayed in the King James English, as cruel and I understand why you do. I understand you do not see miracles as you have had no miracles in your own life--and therefore, no one else could have miracles in their life either.

If I can accept you cannot see--and all your conclusions stem from this--can you accept many can answer the song's question of Do you see what I see? with a resounding, Yes...

One of my favorite quotes: A conclusion is the point where you stop thinking. Once more, I have no preference of whether you are an atheist or a person of faith. My preference is that you at least consider that as a people we do not all see/perceive the same thing the same way. Can you try to understand that what you do not see is still there for others to see?

It is hardwired into humanity through centuries of conditioning that humans desire and need people to believe what they do. This is not inherent in just poorly educated people but in everyone, including billionaires, presidents, politicians, and priests. You poo poohed it but if humans did not believe their cave dweller elders they would die and did die, leaving a gene pool of only those who believed.

Now, you attribute everything and anything to what you call "God" and try to skirt away from the Christian God to pretend that the god you believe in is some sort of deist god who imbued humans with a belief gene and that the laws we discussed earlier came from God even though no bible of Old Testament had been written. In this manner, you want your cake and eat it too. You dismiss the evolutionary survival mandate as being necessary for the human species to have survived and evolved, and like a magician's parlor trick with balls in a cup on a table, you move them around and assert that it doesn't matter if every single law that humans were told to follow were proscribed long before the fictional Moses came along existed, that it still was your bible God who created those laws. It's "Don't look under that cup because when I moved the cups around the table, the truth was under the red cup and the ball is now gone under the table because I made it disappear and assert that god did it."

You don't like that I point out the atrocities that god allowed and condoned like slavery, subjugation or women, hating homosexuals, killing almost the entire human race, ordering the slaughter of men, women, children and animals and on and on because you know deep down those are human writings and want to hide the ball and pretend that either they aren't there or were products of that day and time. In doing so, you admit that your God isn't one who makes laws that are timeless.

I was suspended once for saying faith stands for False Assumptions, Illogical Thinking, Heresay, because believers don't like an attack on F A I T H because religious leaders told them that faith was precious and sacred but never said why it was. In no other area of life or belief do people use faith as a proper way to believe. An engineer won't make a building design on faith. A person won't start a business based on faith. In all walks of life, people believe based on facts and evidence that stand up under scrutiny. They don't say "I have faith this bridge will hold 100 cars"

 

[Meriweather]

It is hardwired into humanity through centuries of conditioning that humans desire and need people to believe what they do. This is not inherent in just poorly educated people but in everyone, including billionaires, presidents, politicians, and priests. You poo poohed it but if humans did not believe their cave dweller elders they would die and did die, leaving a gene pool of only those who believed.

I do not "poo-pooh" anything, so please quote where you see that I did this so we can straighten the matter out. Otherwise, I am going to have to shrug and accept you read what you want to read out of what I am saying. If you are going to do this, then I'll have one more person to leave to converse with whatever Meriweather they are imagining in their own heads, because it's not me, and I am not going to join the two of you.

 

[Meriweather]

Now, you attribute everything and anything to what you call "God" and try to skirt away from the Christian God to pretend that the god you believe in is some sort of deist god who imbued humans with a belief gene and that the laws we discussed earlier came from God even though no bible of Old Testament had been written. In this manner, you want your cake and eat it too. You dismiss the evolutionary survival mandate as being necessary for the human species to have survived and evolved, and like a magician's parlor trick with balls in a cup on a table, you move them around and assert that it doesn't matter if every single law that humans were told to follow were proscribed long before the fictional Moses came along existed, that it still was your bible God who created those laws. It's "Don't look under that cup because when I moved the cups around the table, the truth was under the red cup and the ball is now gone under the table because I made it disappear and assert that god did it."

Once more you are imagining your own Meriweather creation. (Read all the "you" in the above post.) They are not me, and are so far from me as to be unrecognizable. Whoever it is you want or think you are talking to, it isn't me.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

I do not "poo-pooh" anything, so please quote where you see that I did this so we can straighten the matter out. Otherwise, I am going to have to shrug and accept you read what you want to read out of what I am saying. If you are going to do this, then I'll have one more person to leave to converse with whatever Meriweather they are imagining in their own heads, because it's not me, and I am not going to join the two of you.

Post # 141

Perhaps you missed another rather lengthy post I made to another poster, where I informed him that morals are necessary for the proper and best life for humans, and the very survival of humanity itself most likely would not have happened if cave dwellers did not make their children fear various things. Those who did not believe their caveman father perished, whereas those who did believe lived. That fact created a gene pool of humans who believed their elders. Belief became ingrained in humans and especially belief in authority figures such as cave man dad and mom, the tribal chieftan, older and loud tribal members, and older siblings. All that morphed centuries later to belief in influential societal members, kings, queens, emperors, senators, and those who invented various gods such as Thor, Ra, Mithra.

No, I didn't miss it, nor did I need to do more than scan it. It was scarcely original.

 

[Meriweather]

You don't like that I point out the atrocities that god allowed and condoned like slavery, subjugation or women, hating homosexuals, killing almost the entire human race, ordering the slaughter of men, women, children and animals and on and on because you know deep down those are human writings and want to hide the ball and pretend that either they aren't there or were products of that day and time. In doing so, you admit that your God isn't one who makes laws that are timeless.

Again, you are imaging someone else. That I "don't like" should be the first clue.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Once more you are imagining your own Meriweather creation. (Read all the "you" in the above post.) They are not me, and are so far from me as to be unrecognizable. Whoever it is you want or think you are talking to, it isn't me.

Again, post #141

While it is wild and outlandish. I do think that I am now getting your premise. You just assume without evidence that the alleged moral values contained in the commandments somehow came from "God" in a manner unknown, even though most of those morals were written down and codified long before the bible was written. I must admit this is certainly a new spin and invention that I hadn't heard before.

YOU: Hardly a "new spin". Passages is Paul's letters speak of God's law being written in the hearts of men; he also said people with no belief would be judged by their own hearts.


Paul has nothing at all to do with the fact that humans codified laws long before the OT was written and you use a bible verse from Paul in response to my post that moral laws were long before the bible.

 

[Meriweather]

I was suspended once for saying faith stands for False Assumptions, Illogical Thinking, Heresay, because believers don't like an attack on F A I T H because religious leaders told them that faith was precious and sacred but never said why it was. In no other area of life or belief do people use faith as a proper way to believe. An engineer won't make a building design on faith. A person won't start a business based on faith. In all walks of life, people believe based on facts and evidence that stand up under scrutiny. They don't say "I have faith this bridge will hold 100 cars"

An ignorance of the definition and etymology of faith shouldn't have caused someone to suspend anyone. In fact, people start businesses based on faith all of the time. A synonym of faith, is confidence also trust. One has confidence/trust that they can build and run a successful business. In the same way people have confidence/trust that loving others and giving God first place in their lives (Gayle Sayers I am Third: God is first, my friends/family are second, I am third) will bring better results than resentment and hate.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Again, you are imaging someone else. That I "don't like" should be the first clue.

Since you don't acknowledge that the god of the bible was immoral by today's standards and ordered the killings of innocent children, females, and animals, and hated homosexuals, I assert your lack of response as not liking the horrors of the bible.

 

[Meriweather]

Post # 141


No, I didn't miss it, nor did I need to do more than scan it. It was scarcely original.

Hopefully pointing out truths is not what considered a "poo-pooh". If it is, we're further apart than even I recognized.