Zone1 Did you exist before you were born into this life?

[presonorek]

Here is scriptural evidence that we all existed as the spirit children of God the Father before we were born into this mortal world:

Man, Antemortal Existence of​

• See also Council in Heaven; Foreordination; Man, a Spirit Child of Heavenly Father; Spirit Creation
• God of the spirits of all flesh, Num. 16:22 (27:16).
• all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:7.
• the spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7.
• Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:5.
• Lord … formeth the spirit of man within him, Zech. 12:1.
• who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind, John 9:2.
• poets have said, For we are also his offspring, Acts 17:28.
• For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, Rom. 8:29.
• chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:4.
• subjection unto the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9.
• angels which kept not their first estate, Jude 1:6.
• Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, Rev. 12:7.
• called and prepared from the foundation of the world, Alma 13:3.
• bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord, Hel. 14:17.
• third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away, D&C 29:36.
• seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made, D&C 38:1.
• man, according to his creation before the world, D&C 49:17.
• Man was also in the beginning with God, D&C 93:29.
• choice spirits who were reserved to come forth, D&C 138:53.
• before they were born … received their first lessons, D&C 138:56.
• in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, Moses 3:5.
• he beheld the spirits that God had created, Moses 6:36.
• intelligences that were organized before the world was, Abr. 3:22.
• he stood among those that were spirits, Abr. 3:23.
• took his spirit … and put it into him, Abr. 5:7.
• See also Prov. 8:22–31; John 1:2, 14; 8:58; 16:28; 17:5, 24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; 3 Ne. 1:13; 26:5; Ether 3:16.

What is the scriptural evidence that we did not exist prior to being born into this world?

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I dedicated you,
a prophet to the nations I appointed you. Jeremiah 1:5 NABRE

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Here is scriptural evidence that we all existed as the spirit children of God the Father before we were born into this mortal world:

Man, Antemortal Existence of​

• See also Council in Heaven; Foreordination; Man, a Spirit Child of Heavenly Father; Spirit Creation
• God of the spirits of all flesh, Num. 16:22 (27:16).
• all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:7.
• the spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7.
• Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:5.
• Lord … formeth the spirit of man within him, Zech. 12:1.
• who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind, John 9:2.
• poets have said, For we are also his offspring, Acts 17:28.
• For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, Rom. 8:29.
• chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:4.
• subjection unto the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9.
• angels which kept not their first estate, Jude 1:6.
• Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, Rev. 12:7.
• called and prepared from the foundation of the world, Alma 13:3.
• bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord, Hel. 14:17.
• third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away, D&C 29:36.
• seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made, D&C 38:1.
• man, according to his creation before the world, D&C 49:17.
• Man was also in the beginning with God, D&C 93:29.
• choice spirits who were reserved to come forth, D&C 138:53.
• before they were born … received their first lessons, D&C 138:56.
• in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, Moses 3:5.
• he beheld the spirits that God had created, Moses 6:36.
• intelligences that were organized before the world was, Abr. 3:22.
• he stood among those that were spirits, Abr. 3:23.
• took his spirit … and put it into him, Abr. 5:7.
• See also Prov. 8:22–31; John 1:2, 14; 8:58; 16:28; 17:5, 24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; 3 Ne. 1:13; 26:5; Ether 3:16.

What is the scriptural evidence that we did not exist prior to being born into this world?

So, lemme get this straight. There is zero evidence that the bible is anything other than the musings of unknown, ignorant sheep herders, and humans quote it A IF god himself wrote it? Is this logical and rational to believe something like that just because someone else said it was true?

 

[onefour1]

So, lemme get this straight. There is zero evidence that the bible is anything other than the musings of unknown, ignorant sheep herders, and humans quote it A IF god himself wrote it? Is this logical and rational to believe something like that just because someone else said it was true?

The Bible teaches us to honor and respect our parents. It teaches us that we shouldn't kill, commit adultery, or steal. It teaches us to not bear false witness against others and to not covet the things that others own or have. The Bible also teaches us to love and to do good to our fellow beings. From many of the teachings in the bible, good laws for society have been created. If these things are not rational in your mind, then perhaps you should go on an in depth study of the Bible and its teachings to see if it has any value for you personally or for society in general. In my mind it has great value.

 

[GLASNOST]

The Bible teaches us to honor and respect our parents. It teaches us that we shouldn't kill, commit adultery, or steal. It teaches us to not bear false witness against others and to not covet the things that others own or have. The Bible also teaches us to love and to do good to our fellow beings. From many of the teachings in the bible, good laws for society have been created. If these things are not rational in your mind, then perhaps you should go on an in depth study of the Bible and its teachings to see if it has any value for you personally or for society in general. In my mind it has great value.

The Bible teaches us that you need no evidence for anything written within it and that logic and scientific proof should yield to superstition and hokus-pokus. The Bible does not teach us to evaluate honour and respect for anyone, nor does it teach us not to kill. Quite the contrary.

 

[onefour1]

The Bible teaches us that you need no evidence for anything written within it and that logic and scientific proof should yield to superstition and hokus-pokus. The Bible does not teach us to evaluate honour and respect for anyone, nor does it teach us not to kill. Quite the contrary.

“Honour thy father and thy mother.”
Exodus 20:12

“Thou shalt not kill.”
Exodus 20:13

Those of us who have tasted of the Holy Spirit know that it is true. You also could come to this knowledge if you were to do away with your prejudice and seek after a testimony through honest prayer.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

[GLASNOST]

“Honour thy father and thy mother.”
Exodus 20:12

“Thou shalt not kill.”
Exodus 20:13

And enough found in the Bible to contradict all of that.

You also could come to this knowledge if you were to do away with your prejudice and seek after a testimony through honest prayer.

Prejudice is the judging of something you do not understand. Judging something you know to be true is not prejudice. I soul-search myself each and every day of my life and I appraise both the positive and negative aspects therein. Your accusations of me (that you stated above) is the highest level of prejudice. You need to discover why you have chosen an unrighteous path ... and if you are honest you might begin to mend your ways.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

The Bible teaches us to honor and respect our parents. It teaches us that we shouldn't kill, commit adultery, or steal. It teaches us to not bear false witness against others and to not covet the things that others own or have. The Bible also teaches us to love and to do good to our fellow beings. From many of the teachings in the bible, good laws for society have been created. If these things are not rational in your mind, then perhaps you should go on an in depth study of the Bible and its teachings to see if it has any value for you personally or for society in general. In my mind it has great value.

So lemme get this straight. You're claiming that the moral values of not murdering, stealing, lying, or coveting were invented by the Bible? That without the biblical text, humans had no concept of fairness, decency, or social responsibility? That’s not reverence—that’s historical amnesia.

These ethical principles weren’t whispered from heaven; they were hammered out by human beings—long before a single word of the Bible was written—because they were necessary for survival. I have said this before and written about it. Tribal societies, empires, and communities needed structure and cooperation, not divine thunderbolts, to figure out that killing and stealing leads to chaos. You’ll find these values in:

• The Code of Hammurabi (Babylon, ~1750 BCE),
• The Ma’at traditions of Egypt (~2000 BCE),
• Confucian thought in ancient China,
• And indigenous moral codes from Africa to the Americas.

So no—the Bible didn’t introduce morality. It borrowed, repackaged, and ascribed divine authorship to ideas that were already millennia old. It’s like claiming copyright over fire.

Let’s also address the convenient habit of Christians in cherry-picking the Bible’s “good” teachings while ignoring the brutal ones: genocide, slavery, subjugation of women, and divine endorsement of massacres. If you want to credit the Bible for moral insight, then you must also own the moral atrocities it defends.

Calling the Bible the source of morality is not only inaccurate—it’s intellectually lazy. It confuses the tool with the inventor. Humans shaped morality. The Bible merely stamped it with divine approval.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

The evidence is the lack of in context scriptural passage on the subject. Gathering scattered discrete unrelated passages out of context to coble together a dogmatic belief is fraught with subjectivity and error.

Wait - are you referring to Catholics, or the OP?

 

[GLASNOST]

The Bible teaches us........

So lemme get this straight. You're claiming that the moral values of not murdering, stealing, lying, or coveting were invented by the Bible? That without the biblical text, humans had no concept of fairness, decency, or social responsibility?

Yes, I think that's what he's claiming.

These ethical principles weren’t whispered from heaven; they were hammered out by human beings—long before a single word of the Bible was written —

I am certain that is correct.

..... Tribal societies, empires, and communities needed structure and cooperation, not divine thunderbolts, to figure out that killing and stealing leads to chaos.

Logic itself points in that direction.

You’ll find these values in:

• The Code of Hammurabi (Babylon, ~1750 BCE),
• The Ma’at traditions of Egypt (~2000 BCE),
• Confucian thought in ancient China,
• And indigenous moral codes from Africa to the Americas.

Yes.

... the Bible didn’t introduce morality. It borrowed, repackaged, and ascribed divine authorship to ideas that were already millennia old.

This is a fact.

Let’s also address the convenient habit of Christians in cherry-picking the Bible’s “good” teachings while ignoring the brutal ones: genocide, slavery, subjugation of women, and divine endorsement of massacres. If you want to credit the Bible for moral insight, then you must also own the moral atrocities it defends.

Good advice.

Calling the Bible the source of morality is not only inaccurate — it’s intellectually lazy.

It's much worse than that. Standing idly observing treachery is (at least in the age we live in today) partly responsible for the atrocities that have been (and are being) committed.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Yes, I think that's what he's claiming.

I am certain that is correct.

Logic itself points in that direction.

Yes.

This is a fact.

Good advice.

It's much worse than that. Standing idly observing treachery is (at least in the age we live in today) partly responsible for the atrocities that have been (and are being) committed.

Glasnot, I used to debate religion for decades until I discovered how entrenched beliefs are and nearly unshakable. This holds true in this forum as well. One poster here only goes by what she sees are good and kind things in the bible and ignores all the rest as if they aren't there. She just won't discuss them or will say "That was in a different day and time," and refuses to say why an all-knowing God couldn't have outlawed slavery or the subjugation of women (she even refuses to admit that women WERE subjugated.

So, we get this denial and silence, like MSM won't report on things that go against their worldview. I have come to realize that this is now hardwired into the human psyche from centuries of repeating the lies of Christianity. The left has borrowed the indoctrination tactics from Christianity of fear, guilt, shame, canceling, retribution (lawfare), and all so they can stay in power and influence. With religion, it is a little different because they claim, without evidence, that religious beliefs are sacrosanct and above reproach because "God" said such and such.

This is why I responded to the poster who asserted that "morals come from 'God". He actually believes that because that lie has been repeated so many times over the centuries, it is burned into the genes that humans have. Humans believe what their parents, elders, and those in authority tell them. It is a survival mandate that they do so, stemming way back from the early man, where they had to believe their tribal elders or die. It's time to disband that way of thinking.

 

[BreezeWood]

“Honour thy father and thy mother.”
Exodus 20:12

“Thou shalt not kill.”
Exodus 20:13

Those of us who have tasted of the Holy Spirit know that it is true. You also could come to this knowledge if you were to do away with your prejudice and seek after a testimony through honest prayer.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Those of us who have tasted of the Holy Spirit know that it is true.

provide the tablets you claim have the etchings you claim for your religion and proof of their origin. madeup by the liar moses.

 

[Meriweather]

So no—the Bible didn’t introduce morality. It borrowed, repackaged, and ascribed divine authorship to ideas that were already millennia old. It’s like claiming copyright over fire.

Let’s also address the convenient habit of Christians in cherry-picking the Bible’s “good” teachings while ignoring the brutal ones: genocide, slavery, subjugation of women, and divine endorsement of massacres. If you want to credit the Bible for moral insight, then you must also own the moral atrocities it defends.

Calling the Bible the source of morality is not only inaccurate—it’s intellectually lazy. It confuses the tool with the inventor. Humans shaped morality. The Bible merely stamped it with divine approval.

Human life first began in Africa with civilizations then being formed in Asia. Before any written material appeared anywhere, there were oral stories, codes, traditions. I'll bet these stories came to Asia from Africa. Then they began appearing in written form, which brings us to today. Of all these stories, that most likely came out of Africa into Asia and then spread across the globe. Introduce the written word, manuscripts, and books. The Bible became the best seller of all time, the most famous as well, placing in print collected morals, stories, brutal histories, comedy, songs, adages, legends, folklore.

My question: What's your problem? The Bible is a story of mankind from its beginning and all facets of his being. Where are you imagining Hammurabi got the code named for him? Hopefully you are thinking that obviously the Hammurabi Code was well-known by all of civilization and had been since before mankind started painting walls in caves. Why not complain that Hammurabi just copied what was already portrayed in caves? The Bible merely contains lessons and stories that our ancestors wished to pass on to their descendants. Why are you always complaining about that?

People of faith believe God is our creator, and that from the beginning our hearts/inner being knew right from wrong. We were created with this knowledge. With this knowledge, we were given this world to shape. In fact, we credit humans with moral insights, and also with moral atrocities. Why? Because we were created knowing right from wrong.

 

[BreezeWood]

In fact, we credit humans with moral insights, and also with moral atrocities. Why? Because we were created knowing right from wrong.

your claim is not what jesus taught ...

Then they said, “Let us make life in our image, in our likeness, the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky the livestock and all the wild animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground.”

you mimic judaism an apartheid religion and the very reason for the 1st century events where the heavens are for everyone not just a select few and their creation the sabbath is to be kept holy as they created life not for the selfish purposes claimed by the desert bibles.

 

[GLASNOST]

... I used to debate religion for decades until I discovered how entrenched beliefs are and nearly unshakable.

I disagree with your use of he term "entrenched". They'd have to dig deeply in order to be "entrencehed" and "unshabable". Their beliefs lie on the surface. It's like reading the headlines and being too lazy to read the fine print. CHRISTIANITY IS TRUTH although fractured into many off shoots that contradict one other.

One poster here only goes by what she sees are good and kind things in the bible and ignores all the rest as if they aren't there.

I know.

She just won't discuss them or will say "That was in a different day and time,"

Yes, and being oblivious to the fact that those "good and kind things" were also "in a different day and time".

and refuses to say why an all-knowing God couldn't have outlawed slavery or the subjugation of women (she even refuses to admit that women WERE subjugated.

So ..... "entrenched" or just surface Turtle Wax and kept out of the sun and rain for fear of seeing what lies beneath the shine?

So, we get this denial and silence, like MSM won't report on things that go against their worldview.

Yes.

I have come to realize that this is now hardwired into the human psyche from centuries of repeating the lies of Christianity.

"Hardwired"? Maybe. But no insulation to be found.

This is why I responded to the poster who asserted that "morals come from 'God". He actually believes that because that lie has been repeated so many times .

This is the reason the Bible was sectioned and allotted chapter and verse. Quoting scripture protects them from thought. It makes no sense but they hope you will be stymied and "put in your place". It's like noting the record high abundance of mass and serial killers in the US and some Bozo will claim, "This is not how we do things in America!"

It's time to disband that way of thinking.

High time.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Human life first began in Africa with civilizations then being formed in Asia. Before any written material appeared anywhere, there were oral stories, codes, traditions. I'll bet these stories came to Asia from Africa. Then they began appearing in written form, which brings us to today. Of all these stories, that most likely came out of Africa into Asia and then spread across the globe. Introduce the written word, manuscripts, and books. The Bible became the best seller of all time, the most famous as well, placing in print collected morals, stories, brutal histories, comedy, songs, adages, legends, folklore.

My question: What's your problem? The Bible is a story of mankind from its beginning and all facets of his being. Where are you imagining Hammurabi got the code named for him? Hopefully you are thinking that obviously the Hammurabi Code was well-known by all of civilization and had been since before mankind started painting walls in caves. Why not complain that Hammurabi just copied what was already portrayed in caves? The Bible merely contains lessons and stories that our ancestors wished to pass on to their descendants. Why are you always complaining about that?

People of faith believe God is our creator, and that from the beginning our hearts/inner being knew right from wrong. We were created with this knowledge. With this knowledge, we were given this world to shape. In fact, we credit humans with moral insights, and also with moral atrocities. Why? Because we were created knowing right from wrong.

The bible is a story indeed like a movie, creating characters and stories about dungeons and dragons and villains, and heroes. Talking snakes, a fully formed human plopped down in paradise, a great flood that killed all humans, and patterned after the stories that came BEFORE the bible. Anyone can steal and plagiarize the works and writings of the past and claim them as their own, inspired by the "God" that the writers wanted people to believe in.

Fact is, none of it is original or could not have been written by a human making a story, and during a time when false Greek gods had long ago been invented and believed in. It would have been easy to fabricate just one more god, more powerful than all the Greek gods combined.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

I disagree with your use of he term "entrenched". They'd have to dig deeply in order to be "entrencehed" and "unshabable". Their beliefs lie on the surface. It's like reading the headlines and being too lazy to read the fine print. CHRISTIANITY IS TRUTH although fractured into many off shoots that contradict one other.

I know.

Yes, and being oblivious to the fact that those "good and kind things" were also "in a different day and time".

So ..... "entrenched" or just surface Turtle Wax and kept out of the sun and rain for fear of seeing what lies beneath the shine?

Yes.

"Hardwired"? Maybe. But no insulation to be found.

This is the reason the Bible was sectioned and allotted chapter and verse. Quoting scripture protects them from thought. It makes no sense but they hope you will be stymied and "put in your place". It's like noting the record high abundance of mass and serial killers in the US and some Bozo will claim, "This is not how we do things in America!"

High time.

You and I appear to be on the same page. With regard to entrenched, by that I mean that they are unshakable because of our genetic makeup, honed now by many centuries of evolution, where humans had to believe authority figures or die. The humans who did not believe a tribal elder or father about going off alone into another area where they saw caveman bandits didn't return. That left only the believers to continue the gene pool of believers in authority until believing was what humans did because those who did not believe were eliminated by death for not believing they couldn't eat that frog, which is poisonous, that they cannot travel off without company in case of attack, that they couldn't kill a tribal member or the elders would kill them for it.

That is what I mean by entrenched. The lie had already been repeated for 2,000 years and everyone (almost) believed it, and their family members did, their friends did, townspeople did, and to NOT believe surely meant banishment, ostracization, ridicule and even when young they knew not to cross those people or else, so they believed to save themselves from being an outcast. Besides, who would question a tribal elder or townspeople who were supposed to know these things and didn't lie to them about other things. The belief was and is easy. You follow the herd or you get lost in the forest to surely die of starvation or predators.

 

[GLASNOST]

The bible is a story indeed like a movie, creating characters and stories about dungeons and dragons and villains, and heroes. Talking snakes, a fully formed human plopped down in paradise, a great flood that killed all humans ......

 

[GLASNOST]

You and I appear to be on the same page.

No doubt about that.

With regard to entrenched, by that I mean that they are unshakable because of our genetic makeup, honed now by many centuries of evolution, where humans had to believe authority figures or die.

I see what you mean.

 

[Meriweather]

The bible is a story indeed like a movie, creating characters and stories about dungeons and dragons and villains, and heroes. Talking snakes, a fully formed human plopped down in paradise, a great flood that killed all humans, and patterned after the stories that came BEFORE the bible. Anyone can steal and plagiarize the works and writings of the past and claim them as their own, inspired by the "God" that the writers wanted people to believe in.

Think about it. How can any written material come before the story? Biblical stories were oral accounts before they ever became written accounts. Of course the material was there before it was recorded and then gathered into what became known as the Bible. Tell me. Name the person who claimed authorship of which book/passages in the Bible and the name of the person from whom it was stolen.

The same basic morals crop up in every culture around the world, even those unfamiliar with the Bible. They have all been spoken of. Even if we could track down the very first person who spoke them, there is still the question of where did he learn them.

You seem not only astonished--but both hurt and angry--that they also showed up in the Bible. What--the Bible should have skipped common knowledge?

Fact is, none of it is original or could not have been written by a human making a story

Well, duh! These stories and morals were around long before the written word! The written word did not come about yet for millennia. We learned this back in elementary school. When did you figure it out, because you make it sound like it was a recent discovery, and an unwelcome discovery at that.

Fact is, none of it is original or could not have been written by a human making a story, and during a time when false Greek gods had long ago been invented and believed in. It would have been easy to fabricate just one more god, more powerful than all the Greek gods combined.

Any other theories?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Think about it. How can any written material come before the story? Biblical stories were oral accounts before they ever became written accounts. Of course the material was there before it was recorded and then gathered into what became known as the Bible. Tell me. Name the person who claimed authorship of which book/passages in the Bible and the name of the person from whom it was stolen.

The same basic morals crop up in every culture around the world, even those unfamiliar with the Bible. They have all been spoken of. Even if we could track down the very first person who spoke them, there is still the question of where did he learn them.

You seem not only astonished--but both hurt and angry--that they also showed up in the Bible. What--the Bible should have skipped common knowledge?


Well, duh! These stories and morals were around long before the written word! The written word did not come about yet for millennia. We learned this back in elementary school. When did you figure it out, because you make it sound like it was a recent discovery, and an unwelcome discovery at that.


Any other theories?

The Hammurabi code and others were not written?