Zone1 Did you exist before you were born into this life?

[Paradoxical#1]

Hopefully pointing out truths is not what considered a "poo-pooh". If it is, we're further apart than even I recognized.

I pointed out the truth of evolution and belief being mandated in order to survive, and you dismissed that truth as not being original, and you just skimmed through it. Why? Because you want to contend that belief is not mandated by evolution and is directed by your bible god somehow, some way through this thing called faith, which your elders said was a virtue to stop you from questioning what and why you believe.

 

[Meriweather]

Paul has nothing at all to do with the fact that humans codified laws long before the OT was written and you use a bible verse from Paul in response to my post that moral laws were long before the bible.

The simple truth is that from the beginning I was agreeing that laws were in effect and practiced long before the Old Testament--and also long before Hammurabi's Code. Do you understand why I am asserting you are not even talking to me, but a purely imaginary Meriweather in your own mind.

Paul's observations has everything to do when humans receive the Law. He said even those who hold no belief in God have the Law written in their hearts (written within themselves) and will be judged by their own heart. What more is needed for people to understand mankind, by nature, have always had a moral code--and this code was known long before we started writing down words. Once again: I learned all of this elementary school.

Do you believe you discovered something new and unknown?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

The simple truth is that from the beginning I was agreeing that laws were in effect and practiced long before the Old Testament--and also long before Hammurabi's Code. Do you understand why I am asserting you are not even talking to me, but a purely imaginary Meriweather in your own mind.

Paul's observations has everything to do when humans receive the Law. He said even those who hold no belief in God have the Law written in their hearts (written within themselves) and will be judged by their own heart. What more is needed for people to understand mankind, by nature, have always had a moral code--and this code was known long before we started writing down words. Once again: I learned all of this elementary school.

Do you believe you discovered something new and unknown?

This is absolute lunacy. Paul allegedly said that and Paul somehow knew that? This is where crazy comes in when someone uses a verse from Paul to confirm that something is true. It is scarily psychotic.

 

[Meriweather]

This is absolute lunacy. Paul allegedly said that and Paul somehow knew that? This is where crazy comes in when someone uses a verse from Paul to confirm that something is true. It is scarily psychotic.

Shrug. I'm merely pointing out two thousand years ago that Paul was saying what you newly discovered this past week.

 

[Meriweather]

Since you don't acknowledge that the god of the bible was immoral by today's standards and ordered the killings of innocent children, females, and animals, and hated homosexuals, I assert your lack of response as not liking the horrors of the bible.

I study/research the Bible from the perspective of its original author to his original audience, and from the cultures and histories of those times. As it is their story and their lives and experiences my own interest lies in what they gleaned from their lives and times--not so much on your so-called superior conclusions on not only everything they did wrong but how they chose to tell their story.

 

[Meriweather]

Because you want to contend that belief is not mandated by evolution

You are talking to your own imaginary Meriweather again. I don't contend that at all. Have fun with your imaginary discussions.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Shrug. I'm merely pointing out two thousand years ago that Paul was saying what you newly discovered this past week.

I never said that "those who hold no belief in God have the Law written in their hearts (written within themselves) and will be judged by their own heart."

You are sadly and badly mistaken. I said your plagiarized bible laws were done by humans long before unknown writers wrote them down as if they came from "God". They were and are laws for the orderly functioning of humans. It is stupid and naive to think that people wouldn't create laws on their own. To attribute them to some unseen "God" tells me that someone is still in elementary school, where they are being indoctrinated by religious fanatics.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

I study/research the Bible from the perspective of its original author to his original audience, and from the cultures and histories of those times. As it is their story and their lives and experiences my own interest lies in what they gleaned from their lives and times--not so much on your so-called superior conclusions on not only everything they did wrong but how they chose to tell their story.

That is an admission that this is a human story with zero to do with any higher intelligence or creator. If it were, it would not have created this monster god who orders and conducts genocide.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

You are talking to your own imaginary Meriweather again. I don't contend that at all. Have fun with your imaginary discussions.

I see. You talk in vagaries and won't admit your beliefs because they sometimes run counter to what you think you are supposed to believe in order to please the elders.

 

[Meriweather]

I never said that "those who hold no belief in God have the Law written in their hearts (written within themselves) and will be judged by their own heart."

Listen: The point is that people knew right from wrong (or moral values) long before they learned to write. People in Paul's day and age (two thousand years ago) knew that. Do you disagree? That's all I've been saying throughout our discussion. However, you've wanted an argument with your imaginary Meriweather.

You are sadly and badly mistaken. I said your plagiarized bible laws were done by humans long before unknown writers wrote them down as if they came from "God". They were and are laws for the orderly functioning of humans. It is stupid and naive to think that people wouldn't create laws on their own. To attribute them to some unseen "God" tells me that someone is still in elementary school, where they are being indoctrinated by religious fanatics.

Sigh. Adam and Eve knew right and wrong (Genesis) long before Exodus records when God wrote them down. In other words, God's Law was in play long before it was written. I have no argument that Hammurabi could have written down laws before Exodus. What has that to do with anything? Mankind was aware of laws from the beginning, before anyone (including God) put them in written form. You are more than welcome to say, "Yes, but there is no God, so it has to be evolution." I've never argued that because I've always accepted atheists hold no belief in God and they point out other possibilities. That has been going on my entire life. Tell me I'm "sadly and badly mistaken" about any of this. I've set forth what's in the Bible and I've set forth all you have been saying. You are so determined to argue, you can't seem to recognize your own position!

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Listen: The point is that people knew right from wrong (or moral values) long before they learned to write. People in Paul's day and age (two thousand years ago) knew that. Do you disagree? That's all I've been saying throughout our discussion. However, you've wanted an argument with your imaginary Meriweather.

Sigh. Adam and Eve knew right and wrong (Genesis) long before Exodus records when God wrote them down. In other words, God's Law was in play long before it was written. I have no argument that Hammurabi could have written down laws before Exodus. What has that to do with anything? Mankind was aware of laws from the beginning, before anyone (including God) put them in written form. You are more than welcome to say, "Yes, but there is no God, so it has to be evolution." I've never argued that because I've always accepted atheists hold no belief in God and they point out other possibilities. That has been going on my entire life. Tell me I'm "sadly and badly mistaken" about any of this. I've set forth what's in the Bible and I've set forth all you have been saying. You are so determined to argue, you can't seem to recognize your own position!

You either miss or intentionally ignore the point of many of our discussions. What I am saying is that there is and was no god needed in order for humans to formulate their own laws.They were made so that humans could coexist as peacefully as possible. Please don't try to "insert God here" like Christians do when they claim that "God" made the moral laws. They were here long before that, and there was no Adam and Eve anyway. That is fiction.

 

[Meriweather]

You either miss or intentionally ignore the point of many of our discussions. What I am saying is that there is and was no god needed in order for humans to formulate their own laws.They were made so that humans could coexist as peacefully as possible. Please don't try to "insert God here" like Christians do when they claim that "God" made the moral laws. They were here long before that, and there was no Adam and Eve anyway. That is fiction.

Mirror: You missed and ignored everything I said. Have fun with your imaginary Meriweather.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Mirror: You missed and ignored everything I said. Have fun with your imaginary Meriweather.

Yep. As I said when I first came into this religion part of the site......you need a questionnaire filled out to debate a Christian because they intentionally obfuscate and dance around what they believe so that they cannot be tied to a belief that can be scrutinized. I should have known better.

 

[Meriweather]

Yep. As I said when I first came into this religion part of the site......you need a questionnaire filled out to debate a Christian because they intentionally obfuscate and dance around what they believe so that they cannot be tied to a belief that can be scrutinized. I should have known better.

Again, a mirror image of yourself. Were you even awake during Catholic education? Scrutiny was one of the main aspects of middle school religion classes. So yes. You should know better, and I expected you to know basic concepts--which clearly you do not. I take it you never bothered with adult Bible and Catechism studies either.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Again, a mirror image of yourself. Were you even awake during Catholic education? Scrutiny was one of the main aspects of middle school religion classes. So yes. You should know better, and I expected you to know basic concepts--which clearly you do not. I take it you never bothered with adult Bible and Catechism studies either.

One of the things Catholics are is being know-it-alls and condescending, asserting that nonbelievers just don't know what they know. Scrutiny of Catholic dogma is NOT taught except how to DEFEND the dogma. You doo a poor job of it too, never really saying anything, like the Jordan Peteson of Catholicism. Talk in vague flowery terms about how God is all peace and love and wants a relationship and blah blah blah, and when cornered, the verses are allegory and stories and were meant for that time period, and God reveals himself through humans and did so even before the OT was written because Paul said so and that way there you can make God into whoever you want and say he is, the bible be damned. It is to tell stories to teach humans morals, which of course, god is responsible for because he imbued those in man, and all the gospel writers did was to say that Goddidit. To someone like you and Jordan Peterson, god is a moving target and like a hippie, he is peace and love in spite of genocide, hate, jealousy, etc.

 

[Meriweather]

One of the things Catholics are is being know-it-alls and condescending, asserting that nonbelievers just don't know what they know. Scrutiny of Catholic dogma is NOT taught except how to DEFEND the dogma. You doo a poor job of it too, never really saying anything, like the Jordan Peteson of Catholicism. Talk in vague flowery terms about how God is all peace and love and wants a relationship and blah blah blah, and when cornered, the verses are allegory and stories and were meant for that time period, and God reveals himself through humans and did so even before the OT was written because Paul said so and that way there you can make God into whoever you want and say he is, the bible be damned. It is to tell stories to teach humans morals, which of course, god is responsible for because he imbued those in man, and all the gospel writers did was to say that Goddidit. To someone like you and Jordan Peterson, god is a moving target and like a hippie, he is peace and love in spite of genocide, hate, jealousy, etc.

Again, mirror imaging. You are imagining I don't know what you know. When you said you did know Catholic teaching, I took you at your word and talked to you on that level. It took me a while to understand which level you have actually reached when it comes to Catholicism.

Of course I am not defending Catholic dogma; I have no interest in that. What interests me is sharing perspectives and I can share the perspectives of people of faith, and I do understand the perspectives of those who do not believe. I think, perhaps, you are only interested in sharing your own perspective and you have no interest in examining/scrutinizing any other perspective. Correct?

You must have again been talking to your imaginary Meriweather if you had a discussion about God is all peace. I do have conversations/discussions about God is love, but I've never brought up peace. Nor did I say that Paul wrote God that revealed himself before the Old Testament was written. Once again your imaginary Meriweather. Also, I am pretty sure it was in posts with you where I pointed out as far as the heavens are above the earth are God's thoughts from our thoughts and his ways above our ways. This is something ever in my mind.

"To someone like me", you say? Go back to your imaginary Meriweather. You may have figured her out, but when it comes to me, I am surprised just how clueless you are--not just about me, but about many things.

You take the last word if you want it. When it comes to this discussion, I am through.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Again, mirror imaging. You are imagining I don't know what you know. When you said you did know Catholic teaching, I took you at your word and talked to you on that level. It took me a while to understand which level you have actually reached when it comes to Catholicism.

Of course I am not defending Catholic dogma; I have no interest in that. What interests me is sharing perspectives and I can share the perspectives of people of faith, and I do understand the perspectives of those who do not believe. I think, perhaps, you are only interested in sharing your own perspective and you have no interest in examining/scrutinizing any other perspective. Correct?

You must have again been talking to your imaginary Meriweather if you had a discussion about God is all peace. I do have conversations/discussions about God is love, but I've never brought up peace. Nor did I say that Paul wrote God that revealed himself before the Old Testament was written. Once again your imaginary Meriweather. Also, I am pretty sure it was in posts with you where I pointed out as far as the heavens are above the earth are God's thoughts from our thoughts and his ways above our ways. This is something ever in my mind.

"To someone like me", you say? Go back to your imaginary Meriweather. You may have figured her out, but when it comes to me, I am surprised just how clueless you are--not just about me, but about many things.

You take the last word if you want it. When it comes to this discussion, I am through.

I think I will end this here because I can no longer debate a mirage. It's like trying to pick up Jello. You use many words that say nothing. You truly are a Jordan Peterson. Sam Harris debated him several times and said he still didn't understand what his positions and beliefs were. Recently, he had a round table where each person debated him and one of the people asked him if he was a Christian, and he refused to answer, saying it was personal. When the poster criticized that reply, he was booted.

YOU said "Paul's observations has everything to do when humans receive the Law. He said even those who hold no belief in God have the Law written in their hearts (written within themselves) and will be judged by their own heart. What more is needed for people to understand mankind, by nature, have always had a moral code--and this code was known long before we started writing down words. Once again: I learned all of this elementary school."
In your above response, you claimed that "Nor did I say that Paul wrote God that revealed himself before the Old Testament was written."

Any reader would take that as meaning that before the law was written, the law was written on their hearts, meaning that your God somehow implanted them and not humans. This is nonsensical gibberish I do not wish to continue trying to grab a mirage.

 

[BackAgain]

What does “exist” mean as the OP uses that term?

Why do we have to define “life” by resort to “birth?”

When the little human spermatazoa gets inside that little ovum, there is literally a spark of light that results signifying “life.”

Assuming that resulting zygote isn’t aborted or destroyed in some other manner while the mother remains alive, it WILL develop into a human being. It can’t develop into a giraffe, after all. So, it is a human life.

Being born is a part of that life. So is drawing first breath. So is opening its eyes. So is taking its first meal without reliance on the placenta and umbilical cord.

Every single one of the humans on Earth today and as far back as humans existed went through that process. They therefore all existed and exist without being “born.”

 

[onefour1]

What does “exist” mean as the OP uses that term?

Why do we have to define “life” by resort to “birth?”

When the little human spermatazoa gets inside that little ovum, there is literally a spark of light that results signifying “life.”

Assuming that resulting zygote isn’t aborted or destroyed in some other manner while the mother remains alive, it WILL develop into a human being. It can’t develop into a giraffe, after all. So, it is a human life.

Being born is a part of that life. So is drawing first breath. So is opening its eyes. So is taking its first meal without reliance on the placenta and umbilical cord.

Every single one of the humans on Earth today and as far back as humans existed went through that process. They therefore all existed and exist without being “born.”

As the OP, what I mean by existence before being born is did we exist as a spirit being totally independent from the birthing process of this life.

 

[Shiversepter]

.
This is such a deep question that causes one to step back and look at the universe in its entirety and even search anything within the Scriptures that could answer this amazing question.

we look at the animals on the planet and we see that they are much different than humans, the only difference in outward appearance distinguishing human intelligence between animals is the finger digits that humans have as where animals do not have finger digits.

But ... . . monkeys, chimpanzees, apes and gorillas all do have finger digits with chimpanzees " considered " being - the very smartest animals. But other animals are intelligent too,

is it just their lack of " digit fingers " that prevent other animals from utilizing that intelligence in the same way that humans perceive intelligence...

MOSTLY TOOL PRODUCTION and RECOGNITION are what humans utilize with their intelligence. Other animals have intelligence such as abilities to migrate during seasonal cold weather and following ocean currents and even Metamorphosis changing of caterpillar to butterfly and tadpole to frog...

But the Bible literature does not recognize nor mention animals with any possibility of an afterlife with a unity in God and also does not recognize humans with a possibility of a unity and eternity in God unless the human is called upon by God and recognizes God and the human must accept God and God's path to this afterlife with God.

It is impossible to understand how or if a human spirit would have existed before the human was born and the Bible simply does not explain if this pre-birth existence of a human spirit is even a reality,

If it is a reality, humans would have no way to understand nor comprehend this as they do not even comprehend or understand how the Spirit Of God exists in eternity....