Zone1 Did you exist before you were born into this life?

[Meriweather]

The Hammurabi code and others were not written?

Were they written before they were told orally?

 

[Donald H]

Think about it. How can any written material come before the story?

Jonah and his 3 days in the big fish had to be written before the story, if we are to accept that it's not a true story.
Which is of course one of the bible stories that is popularly considered to be untrue.

And Genesis could have been written first before the stories were invented.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Were they written before they were told orally?

Doesn't matter. They were written and codified before your bible.

 

[Meriweather]

Doesn't matter. They were written and codified before your bible.

It doesn't matter who or when passed the oral information onto the writer? It just matters who wrote it down first--even though most of the population was still hearing the oral version? Tell me why this doesn't matter.

Also...say a written portion of the Bible was found and dated before the Hammurabi code was dated. Would you then agree everything came from the written Bible, or would you point out that learning came from oral tradition long before anything was recorded?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

It doesn't matter who or when passed the oral information onto the writer? It just matters who wrote it down first--even though most of the population was still hearing the oral version? Tell me why this doesn't matter.

Also...say a written portion of the Bible was found and dated before the Hammurabi code was dated. Would you then agree everything came from the written Bible, or would you point out that learning came from oral tradition long before anything was recorded?

No. It wouldn't matter because the Hammurabi code doesn't mention the bible or "God". Their moral laws were fashioned by humans as was the bible.

 

[Meriweather]

No. It wouldn't matter because the Hammurabi code doesn't mention the bible or "God". Their moral laws were fashioned by humans as was the bible.

Just how long did it take you to figure that out? From where do you believe the oral accounts originated? Let me give you a hint. Finishing filling in the blank: ....fashioned by hu____.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Just how long did it take you to figure that out? From where do you believe the oral accounts originated? Let me give you a hint. Finishing filling in the blank: ....fashioned by hu____.

and____________________________?

 

[Meriweather]

and____________________________?

I'm wondering why you are all about telling us the obvious. You seem totally shocked by the thought that before humans had the written word they had morals that they passed on to their descendants by word of mouth. And, to you, it seems totally incomprehensible that before the written word, humans had stories they passed around by word of mouth. I wonder...can you even imagine humans cooking before there were written cookbooks?

 

[GLASNOST]

Think about it. How can any written material come before the story? Biblical stories were oral accounts before they ever became written accounts. Of course the material was there before it was recorded and then gathered into what became known as the Bible. Tell me. Name the person who claimed authorship of which book/passages in the Bible and the name of the person from whom it was stolen.

The same basic morals crop up in every culture around the world, even those unfamiliar with the Bible. They have all been spoken of. Even if we could track down the very first person who spoke them, there is still the question of where did he learn them.

You seem not only astonished--but both hurt and angry--that they also showed up in the Bible. What--the Bible should have skipped common knowledge?


Well, duh! These stories and morals were around long before the written word! The written word did not come about yet for millennia. We learned this back in elementary school. When did you figure it out, because you make it sound like it was a recent discovery, and an unwelcome discovery at that.


Any other theories?

Responding honestly to your post would require me to use some pretty foul language so I think I'll refrain and leave to stew in your own mental filth.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

I'm wondering why you are all about telling us the obvious. You seem totally shocked by the thought that before humans had the written word they had morals that they passed on to their descendants by word of mouth. And, to you, it seems totally incomprehensible that before the written word, humans had stories they passed around by word of mouth. I wonder...can you even imagine humans cooking before there were written cookbooks?

Ummmm, I do believe I was the one who clued you into the fact that long before the bible, humans created morals without your bible God.

 

[Meriweather]

Ummmm, I do believe I was the one who clued you into the fact that long before the bible, humans created morals without your bible God.

You were one of my elementary school teachers? Amazing. I take it you didn't care for reading, either.

 

[onefour1]

Ummmm, I do believe I was the one who clued you into the fact that long before the bible, humans created morals without your bible God.

How do you know that it was without God?

 

[BreezeWood]

How do you know that it was without God?

try not to confuse the life causing metaphysical forces of the universe - with desert dweller bibles.

3.45 billion years of evolution occurred before humans ever existed on planet earth.

 

[Meriweather]

How do you know that it was without God?

This bring us to a response of, "How do we know it was with God?" People of faith believe we were created, which creates the belief there is a Creator. A picture cannot know the artist who created it, because the artist's existence is completely outside the existence of the painting.

From this alone, people of faith should understand the atheist position. Another issue with some atheists, is the very odd conclusions they jump to i.e.--at least one atheist here believes humans learned how to read and write before they learned moral behavior. It's his belief that humans learned moral behavior after the Code of Hammurabi was written but before the Bible was written--because the oldest copy of the Code of Hammurabi still in existence is older than the oldest written copy of Biblical writings still in existence.

Those who accept we are a creation, accept the logic there is a creator. While it was grasped very early on that God exists outside his creation, what also came to light is the perception God is in our midst. Stories emerged from these experiences. While some grasped the truths being expressed, others concluded it was imaginary. These are the same positions that are held today.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

You were one of my elementary school teachers? Amazing. I take it you didn't care for reading, either.

Not a clue what you are saying other than a weak attempt to shoehorn in your God as the originator of morals even though it would be centuries later that some of the morals that were conceived and codified before your god was invented were already written and followed.

Talk about plagiarizing with a straight face. This is classic.

Look, folks, I know all of you believe that somehow your bible god all of a sudden invented moral values and clued in Moses. But long before Moses, the laws you claim are god-ordained were long ago followed and written down. Leave the stealing up to the politicians and don't be so brazen as to claim you didn't rob that bank when they found a gun, a mask, and the money in your car.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

How do you know that it was without God?

Duh! There was zero mention of god is why.

 

[Meriweather]

Not a clue what you are saying other than a weak attempt to shoehorn in your God as the originator of morals even though it would be centuries later that some of the morals that were conceived and codified before your god was invented were already written and followed.

Talk about plagiarizing with a straight face. This is classic.

Look, folks, I know all of you believe that somehow your bible god all of a sudden invented moral values and clued in Moses. But long before Moses, the laws you claim are god-ordained were long ago followed and written down. Leave the stealing up to the politicians and don't be so brazen as to claim you didn't rob that bank when they found a gun, a mask, and the money in your car.

You haven't a clue as to what I am saying. I am telling you morals were in play long before the written word was in Hammurabi's Code or the Bible. You won't even agree with that. The questions that arise beyond that is, How did morals develop? If you paid any attention at all to possible theories, some say that humans learned through trial and error that certain behaviors brought desired results and the whole community benefited; other brought about undesirable results that at best brought no benefits and at worst, proved fatal. All of the this occurred before the written word and, as it has been long known, I was taught it in elementary school. My grandmother knew this, although I guess she wasn't taught it until she was in her late teens and was attending a Catholic nursing school (1920s)

Are you following me? If so, read on. Beyond this questions of how morals developed in humans, is how did humans come into being? Some postulate we just came into being through some kind of chemical compounds and energy and humans evolved from there. Others postulate there is a creator and that creator endowed within us that intrinsic sense of right and wrong and moral values. You believe there was no creator. Fine. You believe in adaptations and the Theory of Evolution which is fine with me. You are an atheist, which means you join the club of all the other atheists that have been in my life since the day I was born.

What I am getting from you, is: Don't believe the Bible. It was written after the Code of Hammurabi. And that observation has nothing to do with the price of tea in China let alone how morals and belief in God developed in humanity.

So...No, dear, all of us do not "believe that somehow your bible god all of a sudden invented moral values and clued in Moses." On the other hand, you have made up your own set of beliefs on what people of faith believe and how we came to believe them. You started with an incorrect premise and that is why your conclusions are so far off of left field, they are no longer even in the ballpark. No wonder you think you've won. You are off in another ballpark and game of your own creation. Kind of ironic as you hold no belief in creation....

 

[BreezeWood]

- on what people of faith believe ....

that's your calling card you believe has the weight of reason when in fact the desert religions are based on whom they have decided to believe without verification the stories that appeal to them and nothing more -

as the example of the liar and murderer moses claim to have spoken to the desert god and were given etched tablets from them they destroyed before being witnessed by a single individual and others as abraham and their apartheid religion of judaism ...

what exact proof do people of faith have for their insistence to be believed than simply their own reasons to believe in their own madeup stories.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

You haven't a clue as to what I am saying. I am telling you morals were in play long before the written word was in Hammurabi's Code or the Bible. You won't even agree with that. The questions that arise beyond that is, How did morals develop? If you paid any attention at all to possible theories, some say that humans learned through trial and error that certain behaviors brought desired results and the whole community benefited; other brought about undesirable results that at best brought no benefits and at worst, proved fatal. All of the this occurred before the written word and, as it has been long known, I was taught it in elementary school. My grandmother knew this, although I guess she wasn't taught it until she was in her late teens and was attending a Catholic nursing school (1920s)

Are you following me? If so, read on. Beyond this questions of how morals developed in humans, is how did humans come into being? Some postulate we just came into being through some kind of chemical compounds and energy and humans evolved from there. Others postulate there is a creator and that creator endowed within us that intrinsic sense of right and wrong and moral values. You believe there was no creator. Fine. You believe in adaptations and the Theory of Evolution which is fine with me. You are an atheist, which means you join the club of all the other atheists that have been in my life since the day I was born.

What I am getting from you, is: Don't believe the Bible. It was written after the Code of Hammurabi. And that observation has nothing to do with the price of tea in China let alone how morals and belief in God developed in humanity.

So...No, dear, all of us do not "believe that somehow your bible god all of a sudden invented moral values and clued in Moses." On the other hand, you have made up your own set of beliefs on what people of faith believe and how we came to believe them. You started with an incorrect premise and that is why your conclusions are so far off of left field, they are no longer even in the ballpark. No wonder you think you've won. You are off in another ballpark and game of your own creation. Kind of ironic as you hold no belief in creation....

While it is wild and outlandish. I do think that I am now getting your premise. You just assume without evidence that the alleged moral values contained in the commandments somehow came from "God" in a manner unknown, even though most of those morals were written down and codified long before the bible was written. I must admit this is certainly a new spin and invention that I hadn't heard before.

Perhaps you missed another rather lengthy post I made to another poster, where I informed him that morals are necessary for the proper and best life for humans, and the very survival of humanity itself most likely would not have happened if cave dwellers did not make their children fear various things. Those who did not believe their caveman father perished, whereas those who did believe lived. That fact created a gene pool of humans who believed their elders. Belief became ingrained in humans and especially belief in authority figures such as cave man dad and mom, the tribal chieftan, older and loud tribal members, and older siblings. All that morphed centuries later to belief in influential societal members, kings, queens, emperors, senators, and those who invented various gods such as Thor, Ra, Mithra.

Belief is in our genetic makeup, and it was convenient for leaders to just assert that the god of that time period could do magical things, and you better listen or that god would get angry and make you starve, create a drought, or strike you dead with lightning. Later, a god was invented who insisted that humans not kill, steal, covet a neighbor's wife, not believe in any other gods because he was jealous, not work on the Sabbath, etc.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

How do you know that it was without God?

How do you know it was not without Allah, Zeus, Mithra, or the thousands of other invented gods that came and went?