Did Pope Francis help the church by going woke?

Tacitus was born in 56 CE, decades after Jesus' crucifixion in around 30 CE. He had to have relied on secondhand information or hearsay from existing records or Christian sources rather than witnessing events himself. Tacitus was not around when Jesus was (allegedly) around. His writings reflect the knowledge available at the time rather than direct observation.

I sincerely hope this puts the matter to bed.

You underestimate the bed. In the time of Tacitus a "second hand information" was far not this what it is today where people forget what they ate yesterday. It is said - for example - the first aborigenes who Europeans met in Australia had been able to listen to a 4 hours long rezitation ("opera") and had been able to repeat this verbally afterwards. Every ancient Greek for example knew Homer's Illiad verbally and so on ...

But this is not why I'm here now. I only liked to say:

"Bye bye, Francis. Nice that you was here. See you. Hopefully."

 
Grin. Where (choose something specific) do you think what I write does not match Catholic dogma? I have moved around a bit in my life and have intently listened to many homilies and read a lot written by Catholics. No. I have not made up my own religion. What I have done is taken from both Church and Scripture matters that pertain to my own life and have worked from there.
Just for starters, you claim that hell is "just" eternal separation from God and that is what the Catholics teach. The Catholic Church has historically taught that hell is eternal and that those who die in a state of mortal sin face eternal separation from God. This teaching is rooted in scripture and affirmed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Church describes hell as a place of eternal punishment, often symbolized by eternal fire. The Catholic church teaches that when someone hears the gospel and simply does not believe this is a rejection of God and leads to eternal separation from God, which is the essence of hell.

There are many people here who were not exposed to and raised as a Catholic and taught by nuns who don't know these teachings. To keep parishioners, the church is trying to soften its previous teachings and turn to a DEI-type church where all are welcome, even the LGTBQ crowd, which is what this thread is all about.

In the 1960s they had many meetings which culminated in them changing their attitudes about women being second-class citizens and many other previously held notions they maintained for centuries. Their copout is that they "reached a deeper understanding of scripture."
 
Just for starters, you claim that hell is "just" eternal separation from God and that is what the Catholics teach. The Catholic Church has historically taught that hell is eternal and that those who die in a state of mortal sin face eternal separation from God. This teaching is rooted in scripture and affirmed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Church describes hell as a place of eternal punishment, often symbolized by eternal fire. The Catholic church teaches that when someone hears the gospel and simply does not believe this is a rejection of God and leads to eternal separation from God, which is the essence of hell.
Curious as to where you came up with this summary, I Googled it...Ah, Artificial Intelligence (AI Summary).

Let's take a look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, specifically the section on hell which focuses on evil doers, those who die in the state of mortal sin, where one knows s/he is offending God and is in danger of hell.

Then let's look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church that addresses those who do not know Christ.

I am supposing you are looking for verses or parts of verses that you believe support your theory that religion is based on fear. Since I've never had any plans to be an evil doer (and know none who do) this is no more fearful to me than a sign at the beach that says Riptide Danger, No swimming. As I never had the desire to go swimming in a riptide, no fear. Anyway, here is a copy/paste for you from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is lengthy and you may not wish to read it as you are content that version. I have something that I think will give you greater delight. I am a big fan of Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle, but she also wrote a book about her life. Before the catechism less look at her vision of hell, one granted her had she opted for a life of vice instead of virtue. Of course, those who don't believe in visions from God, will find Teresa's experience easy to dismiss, correct? I took the Interior Castle at St. Teresa's word, and I also took her at her word of this vision of hell. Note, that like the Catholic Church teaches, hell is a choice.
I found myself, as I thought, plunged right into Hell. I realized that it was the Lord's will that I should see the place which the devils had prepared for me there and which I had merited for my sins. This happened in the briefest space of time, but, even if I were to live for many years, I believe it would be impossible for me to forget it. The entrance, I thought, resembled a very long, narrow passage, like a furnace, very low, dark and closely confined; the ground seemed to be full of water which looked like filthy, evil-smelling mud, and in it were many wicked-looking reptiles. At the end there was a hollow place scooped out of a wall, like a cupboard, and it was here that I found myself in close confinement. But the sight of all this was pleasant by comparison with what I felt there ... My feelings, I think, could not possibly be exaggerated, nor can anyone understand them. I felt a fire within my soul the nature of which I am utterly incapable of describing ... I had been put in this place which looked like a hole in the wall, and those very walls, so terrible to the sight, bore down upon me and completely stifled me. There was no light and everything was in the blackest darkness.

Okay, now for what the Catholic Church (not AI) teaches about hell:

IV. HELL
1033

We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034

Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather ... all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"

1035

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036

The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."

1037

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

The Church and non-Christians

839

"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,6 "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

840

And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.


841

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

842

The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city...

843

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

844

In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845

To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."


:) Too much reading? I've always loved doing research. I've never been one to scoop something off the surface. However, I've also always had a hard time accepting the idea that people deliberately choose to do evil, that evil is merely a plot in a novel, so good people can overcome it.
 
In the 1960s they had many meetings which culminated in them changing their attitudes about women being second-class citizens and many other previously held notions they maintained for centuries. Their copout is that they "reached a deeper understanding of scripture."

In the 1960s, my paternal grandfather introduced me to genealogy. Even as a ten-year-old, I was not satisfied with the bare bones of names. I wanted stories! Especially stories of my female ancestors. I did research, lots of it. When all this whining about how women had been mistreated and second class citizens emerged, I had no trouble imagining my female ancestors marching into that future to whack all who swallowed such nonsense upside the head. Hard. Smack! Do you really believe your female ancestors would have put up with such nonsense from your mere male ancestors?
 

Did Pope Francis help the church by going woke​




That is exactly why he was elected .
He was always supported by the CIA and they had vested interest in him and his different way of exerting influence and power .

I have elsewhere reminded you of this man's background and he always was a political animal . See my Topic about the not so nice Pope .

He was a Jesuit and it might be instructive to look at the movement and decide what some of them believed and still work to achieve .
And the one thing I will guarantee is that Satan will appear in your research . Prominently .
Make of that what you choose .
 
Curious as to where you came up with this summary, I Googled it...Ah, Artificial Intelligence (AI Summary).

Let's take a look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, specifically the section on hell which focuses on evil doers, those who die in the state of mortal sin, where one knows s/he is offending God and is in danger of hell.

Then let's look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church that addresses those who do not know Christ.

I am supposing you are looking for verses or parts of verses that you believe support your theory that religion is based on fear. Since I've never had any plans to be an evil doer (and know none who do) this is no more fearful to me than a sign at the beach that says Riptide Danger, No swimming. As I never had the desire to go swimming in a riptide, no fear. Anyway, here is a copy/paste for you from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is lengthy and you may not wish to read it as you are content that version. I have something that I think will give you greater delight. I am a big fan of Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle, but she also wrote a book about her life. Before the catechism less look at her vision of hell, one granted her had she opted for a life of vice instead of virtue. Of course, those who don't believe in visions from God, will find Teresa's experience easy to dismiss, correct? I took the Interior Castle at St. Teresa's word, and I also took her at her word of this vision of hell. Note, that like the Catholic Church teaches, hell is a choice.
I found myself, as I thought, plunged right into Hell. I realized that it was the Lord's will that I should see the place which the devils had prepared for me there and which I had merited for my sins. This happened in the briefest space of time, but, even if I were to live for many years, I believe it would be impossible for me to forget it. The entrance, I thought, resembled a very long, narrow passage, like a furnace, very low, dark and closely confined; the ground seemed to be full of water which looked like filthy, evil-smelling mud, and in it were many wicked-looking reptiles. At the end there was a hollow place scooped out of a wall, like a cupboard, and it was here that I found myself in close confinement. But the sight of all this was pleasant by comparison with what I felt there ... My feelings, I think, could not possibly be exaggerated, nor can anyone understand them. I felt a fire within my soul the nature of which I am utterly incapable of describing ... I had been put in this place which looked like a hole in the wall, and those very walls, so terrible to the sight, bore down upon me and completely stifled me. There was no light and everything was in the blackest darkness.

Okay, now for what the Catholic Church (not AI) teaches about hell:

IV. HELL
1033

We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034

Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather ... all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"

1035

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036

The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."

1037

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

The Church and non-Christians

839

"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,6 "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

840

And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.


841

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

842

The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city...

843

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

844

In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

845

To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."


:) Too much reading? I've always loved doing research. I've never been one to scoop something off the surface. However, I've also always had a hard time accepting the idea that people deliberately choose to do evil, that evil is merely a plot in a novel, so good people can overcome it.
Being that I am on a cellphone I can’t cut and paste. You threw an entire book on the wall with all manner of apologetics. To scale it down and summarize your post says the church says, “Believe them or else” and that they warn they speak for God. This is like Paul claiming a vision.
 
Being that I am on a cellphone I can’t cut and paste. You threw an entire book on the wall with all manner of apologetics. To scale it down and summarize your post says the church says, “Believe them or else” and that they warn they speak for God. This is like Paul claiming a vision.
Laughing. The entire book? The Catechism is over 680 pages, 2,865 paragraphs. I post 15 paragraphs, (four pages). What I didn't include (much to your relief, I'm betting) were all the footnotes where these teachings were supported by scripture or Church Fathers.

The first time I read St. Teresa's account of her vision of hell I was surprised by the description of hell was "the place which the devils had prepared". Contrast this with St. Paul's quote originally written in Isaiah (64:3): "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him."

Another thing I originally noted about St. Teresa's description of her vision of hell, is a picture of what had been in store for her had she turned to vice, evil. There is no mention of atheists or those who are not Christian, so I never jumped to the conclusion that her vision of hell also included these.

My favorite cartoon of hell is from Far Side. It sketches a picture of a woman happily whistling walking through the worst of hell, while a devil was doing his best to torment her. The second devil said to the first, "Forget it. We will never get to her--she was a middle school teacher." The reason it is my favorite, is not only am I middle school teacher, I am a substitute teacher for middle schools. :)

It is said the best mental exercise is jumping to conclusions. I'm very lazy when it comes to that. I note that St. Teresa's vision included what the devils had prepared for her had she chosen vice. Do devils even bother to prepare places for those who are merely atheists or non-Christians? I have no idea. I know what the Catechism teaches: God sends no one to hell; individuals choose this separation from God. And, as far as I know, there is no vision about those who choose neither vice nor God.
 
Laughing. The entire book? The Catechism is over 680 pages, 2,865 paragraphs. I post 15 paragraphs, (four pages). What I didn't include (much to your relief, I'm betting) were all the footnotes where these teachings were supported by scripture or Church Fathers.

The first time I read St. Teresa's account of her vision of hell I was surprised by the description of hell was "the place which the devils had prepared". Contrast this with St. Paul's quote originally written in Isaiah (64:3): "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him."

Another thing I originally noted about St. Teresa's description of her vision of hell, is a picture of what had been in store for her had she turned to vice, evil. There is no mention of atheists or those who are not Christian, so I never jumped to the conclusion that her vision of hell also included these.

My favorite cartoon of hell is from Far Side. It sketches a picture of a woman happily whistling walking through the worst of hell, while a devil was doing his best to torment her. The second devil said to the first, "Forget it. We will never get to her--she was a middle school teacher." The reason it is my favorite, is not only am I middle school teacher, I am a substitute teacher for middle schools. :)

It is said the best mental exercise is jumping to conclusions. I'm very lazy when it comes to that. I note that St. Teresa's vision included what the devils had prepared for her had she chosen vice. Do devils even bother to prepare places for those who are merely atheists or non-Christians? I have no idea. I know what the Catechism teaches: God sends no one to hell; individuals choose this separation from God. And, as far as I know, there is no vision about those who choose neither vice nor God.
It is duly noted you didn’t respond to my post where the church fathers say “ Believe them or else” which goes back to what I think was my original statement to you that FEAR SELLS. When they get people to believe that they have them hooked and they know it.
 
It is duly noted you didn’t respond to my post where the church fathers say “ Believe them or else” which goes back to what I think was my original statement to you that FEAR SELLS. When they get people to believe that they have them hooked and they know it.
No, the Church Fathers did not say, "Believe or else..." Perhaps you can name which of the Church Fathers you think said this? The early Church Fathers were most concerned that Jesus' and Apostolic teachings were maintained. They were definitely against Arian heresy. The topic of hell didn't develop until about the fifth century.

Let's go back to the Romans and political leaders of other nations. Obey the leaders/government or face death, crucifixion for example. Christianity was a shock to them, because Christians no longer feared death, the prime instrument wielded to insure obedience. Keep in mind crucifixion and many death sentences were out in the open for the people to see, to warn people the death to expect.

I don't know about you, but in the decades I have been attending Mass, the subject of hell, in homilies, has come up three times. I was never fearful and I am astonished to learn that you were. What made you so fearful? If you choose God, you get what you want; if you choose to remain apart from God, you get what you want. I don't see fearful people in church. Yet you have convinced yourself that the only reason people are in Church is fear. I recommend seeking and finding God. You will be in Church for an entirely different reason, all fear allayed.
 
He referred to a guy named Christus.
And said he was the guy who the Christians got their name from and the guy who suffered the extreme penalty at the hands of Pontius Pilatus, and was the cause of a most mischievous superstition (i.e. resurrection).

Jesus was historical and the first Christians worshipping Jesus as God was historical.
 
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Tacitus was born in 56 CE, decades after Jesus' crucifixion in around 30 CE. He had to have relied on secondhand information or hearsay from existing records or Christian sources rather than witnessing events himself. Tacitus was not around when Jesus was (allegedly) around. His writings reflect the knowledge available at the time rather than direct observation.

I sincerely hope this puts the matter to bed.
The topic Tacitus was writing about was Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64. Tacitus recorded that these so called Christians derived their name from Christus - which was Jesus. He goes on to say that this Jesus fellow was put to death by Pontius Pilot in an extreme fashion and that Jesus was the source of a most mischievous superstition. The fact that this was still known decades after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ means that it was common knowledge of that day.

I sincerely hope this puts the matter to bed.
 
And said he was the guy who the Christians got their name from and the guy who suffered the extreme penalty at the hands of Pontius Pilatus, and was the cause of a most mischievous superstition (i.e. resurrection).

Jesus was historical and the first Christians worshipping Jesus as God was historical.
Let us dime for the moment that he said it in those exact words. The topic was where are the accounts of the people who were non cultists when Jesus walked the earth who were there (eye witnesses)?
 
The topic Tacitus was writing about was Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64. Tacitus recorded that these so called Christians derived their name from Christus - which was Jesus. He goes on to say that this Jesus fellow was put to death by Pontius Pilot in an extreme fashion and that Jesus was the source of a most mischievous superstition. The fact that this was still known decades after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ means that it was common knowledge of that day.

I sincerely hope this puts the matter to bed.
And only Tacitus writes anything? 40 years after? This is like CNN reporting something about about slavery.
 
....which goes back to what I think was my original statement to you that FEAR SELLS. When they get people to believe that they have them hooked and they know it.
I spent a few hours this morning doing a little research about fear sells. As I also learned during my university years, when it comes to sale of products, fear sells. However, when it comes to religion, there was no data, only a conclusion of...maybe? One study I looked at was about fear in general. Who were the least fearful overall of things in general? The least fearful were people who attended church once a week--and, people who never went to church. Fears grew among those who sometimes went to church. Another study focusing on fear of hell noted that the more people attended church, the less fear they had of hell.

Another study: People who remained with religion was because of faith based on reason, both from scripture and their own experiences of their beliefs making a difference on how they lived their daily lives. The reasons from people who decided to leave were based on emotions that boiled down to they did not want faith and biblical accounts about Jesus to be true.
 
I spent a few hours this morning doing a little research about fear sells. As I also learned during my university years, when it comes to sale of products, fear sells. However, when it comes to religion, there was no data, only a conclusion of...maybe? One study I looked at was about fear in general. Who were the least fearful overall of things in general? The least fearful were people who attended church once a week--and, people who never went to church. Fears grew among those who sometimes went to church. Another study focusing on fear of hell noted that the more people attended church, the less fear they had of hell.

Another study: People who remained with religion was because of faith based on reason, both from scripture and their own experiences of their beliefs making a difference on how they lived their daily lives. The reasons from people who decided to leave were based on emotions that boiled down to they did not want faith and biblical accounts about Jesus to be true.
I normally don’t do links but this time I’ll make an exception. Please post the link which I suspect already is by a devout person or organization
 
I normally don’t do links but this time I’ll make an exception. Please post the link which I suspect already is by a devout person or organization
I don't do links either. People can do their own research. Nor do I research only one source, but several, unrelated ones. I expect you are most interested in the source that had people staying with their faith due to their logic; and people giving up their faith for more emotional reasons and because they don't want it to be true. That particular one was the only one that was obviously faith biased, and if I recall correctly, it was based on something CS Lewis (atheist turned Christian) said.

But I was curious. Have you ever asked yourself, "Do I want the Catholic/religious faith to be true? Do I want the Catholic/religious faith to be false?"

Personally, I give no credence at all to your theory people are only in church because they fear hell. All the information I picked up from several sites this morning was, Maybe, but hard to tell. There was one site that noted very few people (believers and non-believers) thought they were going to hell.
 
15th post
I don't do links either. People can do their own research. Nor do I research only one source, but several, unrelated ones. I expect you are most interested in the source that had people staying with their faith due to their logic; and people giving up their faith for more emotional reasons and because they don't want it to be true. That particular one was the only one that was obviously faith biased, and if I recall correctly, it was based on something CS Lewis (atheist turned Christian) said.

But I was curious. Have you ever asked yourself, "Do I want the Catholic/religious faith to be true? Do I want the Catholic/religious faith to be false?"

Personally, I give no credence at all to your theory people are only in church because they fear hell. All the information I picked up from several sites this morning was, Maybe, but hard to tell. There was one site that noted very few people (believers and non-believers) thought they were going to hell.
I may have posted here or elsewhere that I stopped being a believer in my mid to late twenties and was terrified because that meant going to hell if there was this Bible god that unknown primitives wrote about. I got over that in several years. After that I spent considerable time exploring the truth of religions and how they all came about. It was through fear. Of volcanoes, major floods, tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, the sun not shining long enough for growing crops resulting in tribal starvation. As you see all fear based and the Greek gods were invent and feared and prayed to. Your God is merely a combination of all of them with all the powers they had. Remember your story of Noah’s ark? Copied almost verbatim as is and was just about everything else from previous gods.
 
I may have posted here or elsewhere that I stopped being a believer in my mid to late twenties and was terrified because that meant going to hell if there was this Bible god that unknown primitives wrote about. I got over that in several years. After that I spent considerable time exploring the truth of religions and how they all came about. It was through fear. Of volcanoes, major floods, tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, the sun not shining long enough for growing crops resulting in tribal starvation. As you see all fear based and the Greek gods were invent and feared and prayed to. Your God is merely a combination of all of them with all the powers they had. Remember your story of Noah’s ark? Copied almost verbatim as is and was just about everything else from previous gods.
I've always loved mythology--especially Greek/Roman. No, God is different from Greek gods, and the story of Noah in the great flood differs from the story of the Greek flood. Think about it. What was the major difference between Zeus and God in the accounts?
 
Francis the talking Pope was a disgrace to his robes.
Good riddance hopefully they replace him with conservative traditional Pope.
The whole religion has been a disgrace from its inception. Jesus was NEVER with them.
 
The whole religion has been a disgrace from its inception. Jesus was NEVER with them.

The Pope who had three young men drained of their blood so he could have a transfusion...
 
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