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You're still missing the point. This entire debate is spawned, usually, by the following sort of exchange:None of that supports the notion that America is not a democracy, which was my point.
mandating is definitely democracyYou're still missing the point. This entire debate is spawned, usually, by the following sort of exchange:
Dems: There outta be a law!
Non-dems: But that would violate our rights!
Dems: But we took a vote. We're a democracy! Majority rules. Suck it!
Non-dems: No we're not. Fuck you.
Now, that last bit is dumb and pointless. The debate isn't whether we "are" a democracy. The debate is how much can government ram down our throats in the name of democracy.
One man's approved regulation is another's tyranny. That's been the dilemna of democracy ever since there has been democracy, and like one famous politician said, something on the order of (was it Churchill?) 'democracy sucks, but all the others are worse'.You're still missing the point. This entire debate is spawned, usually, by the following sort of exchange:
Dems: There outta be a law!
Non-dems: Nope, that law would violate our rights!
Dems: But we took a vote. We're a democracy! Majority rules. Suck it!
Non-dems: No we're not. Fuck you.
Now, that last bit is dumb and pointless. The debate isn't whether we "are" a democracy. The debate is how much can government ram down our throats in the name of democracy.
Which is why about half our Constitution amounts to limits on democracy.One man's approved regulation is another's tyranny. That's been the dilemna of democracy ever since there has been democracy, and like one famous politician said, something on the order of (was it Churchill?) 'democracy sucks, but all the others are worse'.
Actually, most of society is excluded from the democracy bellyache. Most of the decisions we make as a society aren't subjected to majority rule. And that's a good thing. But it seems many Democrats want to change that. They want nearly everything to conform to the desires of the majority. This is what the "We aren't a democracy" people are pushing back on.Welcome to the club. No one is excluded from the democracy bellyache.
I'm not sure what that means. But I just noticed who I'm responding to, so I can't care.mandating is definitely democracy
I was confirming what you said. mandates are pure dictatorship. Not anything resembling a democracy.I'm not sure what that means. But I just noticed who I'm responding to, so I can't care.
{Caveat: those who are weaned on soundbites, one liners and snarky quips, who have subsequent short attention spans, ignore this post]
This trope has been floundering around the conservative/libertarian circles on the right for some time now, and now Trump
has joined the *RNAD regurgitators.
*Republic, Not A Democracy.
Some Republicans claim that 'proof' is in the pledge: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands..."
Uh, no...I'm sorry to inform you on the right, especially republicans, but "Republic", "Constitutional Republic", "Democracy", "Liberal Democracy", "Western Democracy", etc., these are NOT mutually exclusive terms. I know you think they are, but no, they aren't. They are general terms for basically the same principle, that a Democracy, using the broadest sense of the term, which is the most common use of the term, means a nation of liberty, where free speech, freedom of assembly, everyone of age has the vote, and other assorted virtues, prevail, as opposed to a monarchy or dictatorship or totalitarian non democratic nations.
To wit:
...[a] fundamental maxim of republican government...requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22
When Madison/Hamilton (i.e., "Publius") was making a distinction between 'Democracy' and 'Republic', favoring a Republic, he wasn't dissing 'Democracy' in the general sense, he/they were using the term in parochial sense, he was making a distinction between a government where laws are voted on by the electorate, a direct democracy, and one that has laws enacted by a Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, and The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature which includes the Vice President when a tie vote needs to be broken. They weren't using the term as it has been used in academia, journalism and public spheres as it has ben used for a very long time.
Now, just in case some of you on the right assert that my Fed #22 quote is out of context, but no, because the meat of the statement stands alone and the context it was written in doesn't really change that fact, so context wasn't necessary.
And what was that context? Hamilton was actually arguing that the principle of equal suffrage between states of different sizes (of populations) contradicts the principle that it is a maxim of a republican form of government that the majority should prevail. Because he was arguing in favor of that principle, the principle, as a principle, it therefore stands alone --not to mention that he states that contrary arguments are 'sophistry'. Clearly, Hamilton favors that the majority should prevail in elections. This IS democracy.
Note that, as any encyclopedia will define, the term 'Republic', is a broad term, and is merely any government that is not a monarchy, where the leaders are either voted in OR appointed. also note that all elections, yes, the many thousands of them from local municipalities on up, excluding only the Vice Pres. and President, are voted via direct democracy. Thus only the VP and the Prez are voted via the EC. (Of course, laws are enacted via the legislature and the Prez but we do have laws, known as 'ballot initiatives' enacted by direct vote in many states). So, we can rightfully state that the vast majority of elections in the United States are done via direct democracy.
There are all types of Republics; there are Constitutional Republics (AKA Democratic Republics aligned with a Constitution) , Islamic Republics, There are Socialist Republics, Calvinist Republics, and so on. But, listening to any Republican, (of late) they will assert that a 'Republic" and a "Democracy' are not the same thing. Let's be clear on this point, A Republic may not include a democracy but a democracy is just about always a Republic, and so, most of the time, these days, when we say 'Republic' we are thinking of a democracy of a certain type, which is defined by whatever charter the Republic is aligned with and usually that is a representative democracy of some kind.
America is a Constitutional [Federal] Republic, AKA "Representative Democracy: AKA "Liberal Democracy" AKA "Western Democracy", noting that Representative Democracy refers to the House of Representatives, and not so much the Electoral College. If we didn't have an EC, America would still be a representative democracy. A number of western democracies, or rather, most of them, elect their president by direct, majority vote, yet are still known as 'representative democracies' precisely because of the fact that they have, like that of the US, an elected body of representatives who propose legislation on behalf of constituents. Now, if anyone is going to claim otherwise, no, I don't buy it, because I've learned this since middle school, read it everywhere I've ever read about politics, heard it spoken on the tongues of pundits, academicians, and leaders of every type since I was a teenager interested in the subject --- we were taught, without exception, "America is a Democracy", and "Democracy is core value in America".
I mean, this stupid RNAD thing, well, it's getting out of hand, and I can clearly see what is driving it: IN FACT, this idea that 'America is not a Democracy' became popular with Republicans right about the time they started losing the popular vote. Gee, what a coincidence, it seems they need to dis democracy in order to feel about about their winning the presidency via a particular fluke in the electoral college system. And don't tell me that not winning the popular vote doesn't bother Republicans. I know it really annoys Trump which is why he lied when he said that he would have won the popular vote had not 3 million illegals voted (in the 2016 election, which was a lie). No, y'all would definitely prefer to win the popular vote. Don't tell me otherwise, I just don't believe you.
It's really gotten a lot of traction now, the RNAD myth, given that in the last few decades Republicans are not winning the popular vote, so now they're trying to poo poo democracy, and doing a lot to diminish it, as a matter of fact, and this trope allows them to feel good about doing it. Republics don't like democracy given that of late, it appears that Democracy doesn't like Republicans. Well, they are bringing it on themselves.
Well, I got bad news for Republicans, either you have a democracy or Fascism. It's one or the other and you really need to decide which side you are on. You can move towards one, and when you do, you are moving away from the other, and that, in my view, describes Trumpism, a move away from democracy towards fascism. The Lincoln Repubs recognize this and have rejected Trumpism hence the "Lincoln Project".
America is all about elections. We have local elections in every municipality in America, thousands of them. We have elections in every state for various state level positions form Governor on down. And then we have elections for the House and the Senate, and finally, The President and Vice president via the electoral college. All sorts of elections, so don't tell me, those of you on the right, and Republicans, that America is "not" a democracy because the BS meter is redlining......
View attachment 772373
Any country that has as many elections as America has is a democracy. No, that it's a 'representative democracy' doesn't alter the statement. Remember, the term 'Democracy' has both broad and parochial usages.
The Trumpist claim that we're 'a republic, not a democracy' is even more dangerous than it sounds
Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to ...www.dailykos.com
Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to statements like, “Trumpism is a threat to democracy!” While your first reaction might have been, “Huh?” or, “Are these stone-cold nincompoops out of their ever-loving minds?” the refrain remains a consistent rebuttal from the extreme right.
Responding to RNAD requires understanding what right-wing extremists mean when they say “a republic, not a democracy.” It means they don’t care about democracy. This line of argument provides an ideological justification for some of the most extreme actions being taken by members of the MAGAsphere—actions aimed at thwarting American democracy itself.
BINGO!
A democracy is often a term referring to....
1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
2. A nation where citizens enjoy certain freedoms, of speech, free assembly, freedom to work, be self-employed, to achieve one's aims, etc.
3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion
4. The right to vote once one is 18.
5. A nation with a government of elected leaders, either directly or indirectly.
6. A Republic, Federal, Constitutional, or otherwise, which is, essentially, a government of elected leaders, indirectly or directly, whose legislation is enacted by the elected representatives constituting a 'representative democracy' generally under the governance of a constitution.
Definition of republic
1a(1): a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
b(1): a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
View attachment 772394
AKA 'representative democracy' AKA 'liberal democracies' AKA 'western democracies' AKA or just 'democracy'.
‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument
‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument
Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.www.theatlantic.com
Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.
And it so states right on the Government's own website:
Democracy in the United States.
The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. Here, citizens vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens’ ideas and concerns in government. Voting is one way to participate in our democracy. Citizens can also contact their officials when they want to support or change a law. Voting in an election and contacting our elected officials are two ways that Americans can participate in their democracy.
Democrats, do not let Republicans bamboozle anyone on this point, America IS a democracy. Yes, there are times when it might be in doubt, but in principle, though our democracy is far from perfect, so with all of it's flaws, America is a Democracy.
Which is why about half our Constitution amounts to limits on democracy.
Actually, most of society is excluded from the democracy bellyache. Most of the decisions we make as a society aren't subjected to majority rule. And that's a good thing. But it seems many Democrats want to change that. They want nearly everything to conform to the desires of the majority. This is what the "We aren't a democracy" people are pushing back on.
who doesn't have equal rights? Besides Trump?What about equal rights under the law, our Constitution says that as well.
Which is why about half our Constitution amounts to limits on democracy.
Actually, most of society is excluded from the democracy bellyache. Most of the decisions we make as a society aren't subjected to majority rule. And that's a good thing. But it seems many Democrats want to change that. They want nearly everything to conform to the desires of the majority. This is what the "We aren't a democracy" people are pushing back on.
That isn't problematic, they (republic & democracy) are not mutually exclusive terms.
Bigreb argues, assuming that just because the term 'democracy' is not in the constitution,. therefore, America is not a democracy. This belies ignorance of the the broader term, 'democracy'.
The right to privacy is not in the constitution. The right of judicial review is not in the constitution. The right to a jury of peers is not in the constitution. The right to vote is not explicit in the constitution. The right to a fair trial is not in the constitution. The presumption of innocence is not in the constitution. The right to travel is not in the constitution. The fact that democracy is not in the constitution doesn't mean America is not a democracy, no more than the fact that America is a nation of immigrants is not written in the constitution, either, but, indeed, AMerica is a nation of immigrants. That's a description. That America is a democracy is also a description. Neither are legal terms. they are DESCRIPTIONS and you are conflating a descriptive term with a more documentary/legal term (republic). They are NOT mutually exclusive. Their ONLY argument is how Madison used the term, but even Madison's contemporaries objected to his parochial use of the term.
What??The push back on precisely what you are pushing back on. Articulate exactly your meaning.
Because if you are declaring that America is not a democracy, you'd be wrong.
What??
Psst, it’s factually a representative republicThe push back on precisely what you are pushing back on. Articulate exactly your meaning.
Because if you are declaring that America is not a democracy, you'd be wrong.
What??It is call One Person One Vote. Limiting Democracy kills Democracy.
Limiting democracy is the only thing that keeps it alive. Unlimited democracy disintegrates pretty quickly, if it ever gets off the ground at all.It is call One Person One Vote. Limiting Democracy kills Democracy.
Damn man you really are stupid and ignorant.
Privacy: See the 4th Amendment
Judicial Review: See Article 3 and Marbury v. Madison
Jury and Presumption of Innocence: See the 5th and 6th Amendments
Right to vote: See Articles 1, 2 and the 15th, 23rd, 24th and 26th Amendments
And you can harp about it all fucking day, but the FACT that we only have democracies at the State level won't change.
.
Limiting democracy is the only thing that keeps it alive. Unlimited democracy disintegrates pretty quickly, if it ever gets off the ground at all.
RIGHT!!!! Limiting democracy is the only thing that makes it tenable. Otherwise, the minority has no reason to play along. And, without solid protections against the unfettered will of the majority, they won't.WRONG!!!! Democracy lives as long as there Americans to protect it. When you limit democracy, you kill democracy.
it RIGHT!!!! Limiting democracy is the only thing that makes it tenable. Otherwise, the minority has no reason to play along. And, without solid protections against the unfettered will of the majority, they won't.
