Dems, don't let Repubs bamboozle you, America IS a democracy.

[dblack]

We are not a democracy never have been and hopefully never will be

Well alrighty then!

You didn't really understand my comment at all, did you?

 

[jc456]

Well alrighty then!

You didn't really understand my comment at all, did you?

The real complication is the fact that we allow one person to make up whatever they want from the President's chair in an Executive Order. No representation at all.

 

[dblack]

The real complication is the fact that we allow one person to make up whatever they want from the President's chair in an Executive Order. No representation at all.

That's definitely a problem.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Well alrighty then!

You didn't really understand my comment at all, did you?

Well if you believe America is a democracy you don't understand what one is

 

[dblack]

Well if you believe America is a democracy you don't understand what one is

Which answers my question. You didn't understand my comment at all. Did you read it?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Which answers my question. You didn't understand my comment at all. Did you read it?

You mentioned democracy many times in your post. That's all I need to know about your thinking

 

[dblack]

You mentioned democracy many times in your post. That's all I need to know about your thinking

LOL - that's funny. Just skim for the words you know and react!

 

[OKTexas]

{Caveat: those who are weaned on soundbites, one liners and snarky quips, who have subsequent short attention spans, ignore this post]

This trope has been floundering around the conservative/libertarian circles on the right for some time now, and now Trump
has joined the *RNAD regurgitators.

*Republic, Not A Democracy.

Some Republicans claim that 'proof' is in the pledge: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands..."

Uh, no...I'm sorry to inform you on the right, especially republicans, but "Republic", "Constitutional Republic", "Democracy", "Liberal Democracy", "Western Democracy", etc., these are NOT mutually exclusive terms. I know you think they are, but no, they aren't. They are general terms for basically the same principle, that a Democracy, using the broadest sense of the term, which is the most common use of the term, means a nation of liberty, where free speech, freedom of assembly, everyone of age has the vote, and other assorted virtues, prevail, as opposed to a monarchy or dictatorship or totalitarian non democratic nations.


To wit:

...[a] fundamental maxim of republican government...requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22

When Madison/Hamilton (i.e., "Publius") was making a distinction between 'Democracy' and 'Republic', favoring a Republic, he wasn't dissing 'Democracy' in the general sense, he/they were using the term in parochial sense, he was making a distinction between a government where laws are voted on by the electorate, a direct democracy, and one that has laws enacted by a Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, and The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature which includes the Vice President when a tie vote needs to be broken. They weren't using the term as it has been used in academia, journalism and public spheres as it has ben used for a very long time.
Now, just in case some of you on the right assert that my Fed #22 quote is out of context, but no, because the meat of the statement stands alone and the context it was written in doesn't really change that fact, so context wasn't necessary.

And what was that context? Hamilton was actually arguing that the principle of equal suffrage between states of different sizes (of populations) contradicts the principle that it is a maxim of a republican form of government that the majority should prevail. Because he was arguing in favor of that principle, the principle, as a principle, it therefore stands alone --not to mention that he states that contrary arguments are 'sophistry'. Clearly, Hamilton favors that the majority should prevail in elections. This IS democracy.

Note that, as any encyclopedia will define, the term 'Republic', is a broad term, and is merely any government that is not a monarchy, where the leaders are either voted in OR appointed. also note that all elections, yes, the many thousands of them from local municipalities on up, excluding only the Vice Pres. and President, are voted via direct democracy. Thus only the VP and the Prez are voted via the EC. (Of course, laws are enacted via the legislature and the Prez but we do have laws, known as 'ballot initiatives' enacted by direct vote in many states). So, we can rightfully state that the vast majority of elections in the United States are done via direct democracy.

There are all types of Republics; there are Constitutional Republics (AKA Democratic Republics aligned with a Constitution) , Islamic Republics, There are Socialist Republics, Calvinist Republics, and so on. But, listening to any Republican, (of late) they will assert that a 'Republic" and a "Democracy' are not the same thing. Let's be clear on this point, A Republic may not include a democracy but a democracy is just about always a Republic, and so, most of the time, these days, when we say 'Republic' we are thinking of a democracy of a certain type, which is defined by whatever charter the Republic is aligned with and usually that is a representative democracy of some kind.

America is a Constitutional [Federal] Republic, AKA "Representative Democracy: AKA "Liberal Democracy" AKA "Western Democracy", noting that Representative Democracy refers to the House of Representatives, and not so much the Electoral College. If we didn't have an EC, America would still be a representative democracy. A number of western democracies, or rather, most of them, elect their president by direct, majority vote, yet are still known as 'representative democracies' precisely because of the fact that they have, like that of the US, an elected body of representatives who propose legislation on behalf of constituents. Now, if anyone is going to claim otherwise, no, I don't buy it, because I've learned this since middle school, read it everywhere I've ever read about politics, heard it spoken on the tongues of pundits, academicians, and leaders of every type since I was a teenager interested in the subject --- we were taught, without exception, "America is a Democracy", and "Democracy is core value in America".

I mean, this stupid RNAD thing, well, it's getting out of hand, and I can clearly see what is driving it: IN FACT, this idea that 'America is not a Democracy' became popular with Republicans right about the time they started losing the popular vote. Gee, what a coincidence, it seems they need to dis democracy in order to feel about about their winning the presidency via a particular fluke in the electoral college system. And don't tell me that not winning the popular vote doesn't bother Republicans. I know it really annoys Trump which is why he lied when he said that he would have won the popular vote had not 3 million illegals voted (in the 2016 election, which was a lie). No, y'all would definitely prefer to win the popular vote. Don't tell me otherwise, I just don't believe you.

It's really gotten a lot of traction now, the RNAD myth, given that in the last few decades Republicans are not winning the popular vote, so now they're trying to poo poo democracy, and doing a lot to diminish it, as a matter of fact, and this trope allows them to feel good about doing it. Republics don't like democracy given that of late, it appears that Democracy doesn't like Republicans. Well, they are bringing it on themselves.

Well, I got bad news for Republicans, either you have a democracy or Fascism. It's one or the other and you really need to decide which side you are on. You can move towards one, and when you do, you are moving away from the other, and that, in my view, describes Trumpism, a move away from democracy towards fascism. The Lincoln Repubs recognize this and have rejected Trumpism hence the "Lincoln Project".

America is all about elections. We have local elections in every municipality in America, thousands of them. We have elections in every state for various state level positions form Governor on down. And then we have elections for the House and the Senate, and finally, The President and Vice president via the electoral college. All sorts of elections, so don't tell me, those of you on the right, and Republicans, that America is "not" a democracy because the BS meter is redlining......

View attachment 772373

Any country that has as many elections as America has is a democracy. No, that it's a 'representative democracy' doesn't alter the statement. Remember, the term 'Democracy' has both broad and parochial usages.

The Trumpist claim that we're 'a republic, not a democracy' is even more dangerous than it sounds

Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to ...

www.dailykos.com

Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to statements like, “Trumpism is a threat to democracy!” While your first reaction might have been, “Huh?” or, “Are these stone-cold nincompoops out of their ever-loving minds?” the refrain remains a consistent rebuttal from the extreme right.

Responding to RNAD requires understanding what right-wing extremists mean when they say “a republic, not a democracy.” It means they don’t care about democracy. This line of argument provides an ideological justification for some of the most extreme actions being taken by members of the MAGAsphere—actions aimed at thwarting American democracy itself.

BINGO!

A democracy is often a term referring to....

1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
2. A nation where citizens enjoy certain freedoms, of speech, free assembly, freedom to work, be self-employed, to achieve one's aims, etc.
3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion
4. The right to vote once one is 18.
5. A nation with a government of elected leaders, either directly or indirectly.
6. A Republic, Federal, Constitutional, or otherwise, which is, essentially, a government of elected leaders, indirectly or directly, whose legislation is enacted by the elected representatives constituting a 'representative democracy' generally under the governance of a constitution.

Definition of republic

1a(1): a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
b(1): a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government

View attachment 772394

AKA 'representative democracy' AKA 'liberal democracies' AKA 'western democracies' AKA or just 'democracy'.

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument

Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.

www.theatlantic.com

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument
Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.


And it so states right on the Government's own website:

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/lesson-plans/Government_and_You_handouts.pdf

Democracy in the United States.

The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. Here, citizens vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens’ ideas and concerns in government. Voting is one way to participate in our democracy. Citizens can also contact their officials when they want to support or change a law. Voting in an election and contacting our elected officials are two ways that Americans can participate in their democracy.

Democrats, do not let Republicans bamboozle anyone on this point, America IS a democracy. Yes, there are times when it might be in doubt, but in principle, though our democracy is far from perfect, so with all of it's flaws, America is a Democracy.

The fact that you didn't find the quote below problematic just shows how ignorant you are. (my bold)

Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, and The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature

So now you're saying there are 3 components to our federal legislative body?

Also under our constitutional republican form of government, democracy ends at the State lines. All elections occur at the State level. Of course there is one exception, the electoral college where the top two executives in the federal government are elected by State representatives.

.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

LOL - that's funny. Just skim for the words you know and react!

Shrugs show me the word democracy in the Constitution?

 

[Rumpole]

All the weird fixation over labeling misses the point. It doesn't matter what we call it, what matters is the role that democracy plays in our government. And more importantly, what limits are placed on the power of democracy.

That's really what we're arguing about. Those insisting that America is a democracy, generally want less limits on democratic power, more things decided by majority rule. Those saying it's a republic want more limits on democratic power, less things decided by majority rule.

My point was that Repubs are going around saying that America is not a democracy, I started noticing that they started making this argument since they have been losing the popular vote since the early 90s. In fact, they only won the popular vote once since then. So, they claim 'America is not a democracy' to feel better about themselves, and their increasingly authoritarian tendencies of Donald Trump.

 

[Rumpole]

We are not a democracy never have been and hopefully never will be

A democracy is any republic where people vote.

The terms 'constitutional republic' and 'liberal/representative democracy' are not mutually exclusive terms. I gave more details about this in the OP, and you are ignoring them without providing an adequate counter argument.

 

[dblack]

Shrugs show me the word democracy in the Constitution?

You're bone fucking stupid.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

My point was that Repubs are going around saying that America is not a democracy, I started noticing that they started making this argument since they have been losing the popular vote since the early 90s. In fact, they only won the popular vote once since then. So, they claim 'America is not a democracy' to feel better about themselves, and their increasingly authoritarian tendencies of Donald Trump.

Show me the word democracy in the Constitution?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

A democracy is any republic where people vote.

The terms 'constitutional republic' and 'liberal/representative democracy' are not mutually exclusive terms. I gave more details about this in the OP, and you are ignoring them without providing an adequate counter argument.

No a republic is not a democracy
America is a Constitutional Federal Republic.

 

[Rumpole]

Shrugs show me the word democracy in the Constitution?

The right to privacy is not in the constitution. The right of judicial review is not in the constitution. The right to a jury of peers is not in the constitution. The right to vote is not explicit in the constitution. The right to a fair trial is not in the constitution. The presumption of innocence is not in the constitution. The right to travel is not in the constitution. The fact that democracy is not in the constitution doesn't mean America is not a democracy, no more than the fact that America is a nation of immigrants is not written in the constitution, either, but, indeed, AMerica is a nation of immigrants. That's a description. That America is a democracy is also a description. Neither are legal terms. they are DESCRIPTIONS and you are conflating a descriptive term with a more documentary/legal term (republic). They are NOT mutually exclusive. Their ONLY argument is how Madison used the term, but even Madison's contemporaries objected to his parochial use of the term.

 

[Rumpole]

No a republic is not a democracy
America is a Constitutional Federal Republic.

#275

 

[dblack]

My point was that Repubs are going around saying that America is not a democracy, I started noticing that they started making this argument since they have been losing the popular vote since the early 90s. In fact, they only won the popular vote once since then. So, they claim 'America is not a democracy' to feel better about themselves, and their increasingly authoritarian tendencies of Donald Trump.

I think their point is that we don't decide everything democratically.

 

[Rumpole]

The fact that you didn't find the quote below problematic just shows how ignorant you are. (my bold)



So now you're saying there are 3 components to our federal legislative body?

Also under our constitutional republican form of government, democracy ends at the State lines. All elections occur at the State level. Of course there is one exception, the electoral college where the top two executives in the federal government are elected by State representatives.

.

That isn't problematic, they (republic & democracy) are not mutually exclusive terms.
Bigreb argues, assuming that just because the term 'democracy' is not in the constitution,. therefore, America is not a democracy. This belies ignorance of the the broader term, 'democracy'.

Shrugs show me the word democracy in the Constitution?

The right to privacy is not in the constitution. The right of judicial review is not in the constitution. The right to a jury of peers is not in the constitution. The right to vote is not explicit in the constitution. The right to a fair trial is not in the constitution. The presumption of innocence is not in the constitution. The right to travel is not in the constitution. The fact that democracy is not in the constitution doesn't mean America is not a democracy, no more than the fact that America is a nation of immigrants is not written in the constitution, either, but, indeed, AMerica is a nation of immigrants. That's a description. That America is a democracy is also a description. Neither are legal terms. they are DESCRIPTIONS and you are conflating a descriptive term with a more documentary/legal term (republic). They are NOT mutually exclusive. Their ONLY argument is how Madison used the term, but even Madison's contemporaries objected to his parochial use of the term.

 

[Cellblock2429]

The right to privacy is not in the constitution. The right of judicial review is not in the constitution. The right to a jury of peers is not in the constitution. The right to vote is not explicit in the constitution. The right to a fair trial is not in the constitution. The presumption of innocence is not in the constitution. The right to travel is not in the constitution. The fact that democracy is not in the constitution doesn't mean America is not a democracy, no more than the fact that America is a nation of immigrants is not written in the constitution, either, but, indeed, AMerica is a nation of immigrants. That's a description. That America is a democracy is also a description. Neither are legal terms. they are DESCRIPTIONS and you are conflating a descriptive term with a more documentary/legal term (republic). They are NOT mutually exclusive. Their ONLY argument is how Madison used the term, but even Madison's contemporaries objected to his parochial use of the term.

/——-/
“As early as 1923 the Supreme Court, recognized through decisions, that the liberty given in the 14th amendment guarantees a relatively broad right of privacy in regards to procreation, child-rearing, marriage, and medical treatment termination.

Two decisions by the Supreme Court during the 1920s solidified this view of the 14th amendment. They found the liberty clause of the 14th amendment to prohibit the states from trying to interfere with the private decisions of parents and educators when shaping the children’s education. During the case Meyer v Nebraska in 1923, the Supreme Court said that a state law that did not allow the teaching of German or other foreign languages to students before the ninth grade was unconstitutional.”

Right to Privacy

Right to Privacy - Understand Right to Privacy, LAWS.COM - American Constitution 1789, its processes, and crucial LAWS.COM - American Constitution 1789 information needed.

constitution.laws.com

 

[Rumpole]

/——-/
“As early as 1923 the Supreme Court, recognized through decisions, that the liberty given in the 14th amendment guarantees a relatively broad right of privacy in regards to procreation, child-rearing, marriage, and medical treatment termination.

Two decisions by the Supreme Court during the 1920s solidified this view of the 14th amendment. They found the liberty clause of the 14th amendment to prohibit the states from trying to interfere with the private decisions of parents and educators when shaping the children’s education. During the case Meyer v Nebraska in 1923, the Supreme Court said that a state law that did not allow the teaching of German or other foreign languages to students before the ninth grade was unconstitutional.”

Right to Privacy

Right to Privacy - Understand Right to Privacy, LAWS.COM - American Constitution 1789, its processes, and crucial LAWS.COM - American Constitution 1789 information needed.

constitution.laws.com

None of that supports the notion that America is not a democracy, which was my point.