Dems, don't let Repubs bamboozle you, America IS a democracy.

[ThunderKiss1965]

{Caveat: those who are weaned on soundbites, one liners and snarky quips, who have subsequent short attention spans, ignore this post]

This trope has been floundering around the conservative/libertarian circles on the right for some time now, and now Trump
has joined the *RNAD regurgitators.

*Republic, Not A Democracy.

Some Republicans claim that 'proof' is in the pledge: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands..."

Uh, no...I'm sorry to inform you on the right, especially republicans, but "Republic", "Constitutional Republic", "Democracy", "Liberal Democracy", "Western Democracy", etc., these are NOT mutually exclusive terms. I know you think they are, but no, they aren't. They are general terms for basically the same principle, that a Democracy, using the broadest sense of the term, which is the most common use of the term, means a nation of liberty, where free speech, freedom of assembly, everyone of age has the vote, and other assorted virtues, prevail, as opposed to a monarchy or dictatorship or totalitarian non democratic nations.


To wit:

...[a] fundamental maxim of republican government...requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22

When Madison/Hamilton (i.e., "Publius") was making a distinction between 'Democracy' and 'Republic', favoring a Republic, he wasn't dissing 'Democracy' in the general sense, he/they were using the term in parochial sense, he was making a distinction between a government where laws are voted on by the electorate, a direct democracy, and one that has laws enacted by a Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, and The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature which includes the Vice President when a tie vote needs to be broken. They weren't using the term as it has been used in academia, journalism and public spheres as it has ben used for a very long time.
Now, just in case some of you on the right assert that my Fed #22 quote is out of context, but no, because the meat of the statement stands alone and the context it was written in doesn't really change that fact, so context wasn't necessary.

And what was that context? Hamilton was actually arguing that the principle of equal suffrage between states of different sizes (of populations) contradicts the principle that it is a maxim of a republican form of government that the majority should prevail. Because he was arguing in favor of that principle, the principle, as a principle, it therefore stands alone --not to mention that he states that contrary arguments are 'sophistry'. Clearly, Hamilton favors that the majority should prevail in elections. This IS democracy.

Note that, as any encyclopedia will define, the term 'Republic', is a broad term, and is merely any government that is not a monarchy, where the leaders are either voted in OR appointed. also note that all elections, yes, the many thousands of them from local municipalities on up, excluding only the Vice Pres. and President, are voted via direct democracy. Thus only the VP and the Prez are voted via the EC. (Of course, laws are enacted via the legislature and the Prez but we do have laws, known as 'ballot initiatives' enacted by direct vote in many states). So, we can rightfully state that the vast majority of elections in the United States are done via direct democracy.

There are all types of Republics; there are Constitutional Republics (AKA Democratic Republics aligned with a Constitution) , Islamic Republics, There are Socialist Republics, Calvinist Republics, and so on. But, listening to any Republican, (of late) they will assert that a 'Republic" and a "Democracy' are not the same thing. Let's be clear on this point, A Republic may not include a democracy but a democracy is just about always a Republic, and so, most of the time, these days, when we say 'Republic' we are thinking of a democracy of a certain type, which is defined by whatever charter the Republic is aligned with and usually that is a representative democracy of some kind.

America is a Constitutional [Federal] Republic, AKA "Representative Democracy: AKA "Liberal Democracy" AKA "Western Democracy", noting that Representative Democracy refers to the House of Representatives, and not so much the Electoral College. If we didn't have an EC, America would still be a representative democracy. A number of western democracies, or rather, most of them, elect their president by direct, majority vote, yet are still known as 'representative democracies' precisely because of the fact that they have, like that of the US, an elected body of representatives who propose legislation on behalf of constituents. Now, if anyone is going to claim otherwise, no, I don't buy it, because I've learned this since middle school, read it everywhere I've ever read about politics, heard it spoken on the tongues of pundits, academicians, and leaders of every type since I was a teenager interested in the subject --- we were taught, without exception, "America is a Democracy", and "Democracy is core value in America".

I mean, this stupid RNAD thing, well, it's getting out of hand, and I can clearly see what is driving it: IN FACT, this idea that 'America is not a Democracy' became popular with Republicans right about the time they started losing the popular vote. Gee, what a coincidence, it seems they need to dis democracy in order to feel about about their winning the presidency via a particular fluke in the electoral college system. And don't tell me that not winning the popular vote doesn't bother Republicans. I know it really annoys Trump which is why he lied when he said that he would have won the popular vote had not 3 million illegals voted (in the 2016 election, which was a lie). No, y'all would definitely prefer to win the popular vote. Don't tell me otherwise, I just don't believe you.

It's really gotten a lot of traction now, the RNAD myth, given that in the last few decades Republicans are not winning the popular vote, so now they're trying to poo poo democracy, and doing a lot to diminish it, as a matter of fact, and this trope allows them to feel good about doing it. Republics don't like democracy given that of late, it appears that Democracy doesn't like Republicans. Well, they are bringing it on themselves.

Well, I got bad news for Republicans, either you have a democracy or Fascism. It's one or the other and you really need to decide which side you are on. You can move towards one, and when you do, you are moving away from the other, and that, in my view, describes Trumpism, a move away from democracy towards fascism. The Lincoln Repubs recognize this and have rejected Trumpism hence the "Lincoln Project".

America is all about elections. We have local elections in every municipality in America, thousands of them. We have elections in every state for various state level positions form Governor on down. And then we have elections for the House and the Senate, and finally, The President and Vice president via the electoral college. All sorts of elections, so don't tell me, those of you on the right, and Republicans, that America is "not" a democracy because the BS meter is redlining......

View attachment 772373

Any country that has as many elections as America has is a democracy. No, that it's a 'representative democracy' doesn't alter the statement. Remember, the term 'Democracy' has both broad and parochial usages.

The Trumpist claim that we're 'a republic, not a democracy' is even more dangerous than it sounds

Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to ...

www.dailykos.com

Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to statements like, “Trumpism is a threat to democracy!” While your first reaction might have been, “Huh?” or, “Are these stone-cold nincompoops out of their ever-loving minds?” the refrain remains a consistent rebuttal from the extreme right.

Responding to RNAD requires understanding what right-wing extremists mean when they say “a republic, not a democracy.” It means they don’t care about democracy. This line of argument provides an ideological justification for some of the most extreme actions being taken by members of the MAGAsphere—actions aimed at thwarting American democracy itself.

BINGO!

A democracy is often a term referring to....

1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
2. A nation where citizens enjoy certain freedoms, of speech, free assembly, freedom to work, be self-employed, to achieve one's aims, etc.
3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion
4. The right to vote once one is 18.
5. A nation with a government of elected leaders, either directly or indirectly.
6. A Republic, Federal, Constitutional, or otherwise, which is, essentially, a government of elected leaders, indirectly or directly, whose legislation is enacted by the elected representatives constituting a 'representative democracy' generally under the governance of a constitution.

Definition of republic

1a(1): a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
b(1): a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government

View attachment 772394

AKA 'representative democracy' AKA 'liberal democracies' AKA 'western democracies' AKA or just 'democracy'.

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument

Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.

www.theatlantic.com

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument
Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.


And it so states right on the Government's own website:

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/lesson-plans/Government_and_You_handouts.pdf

Democracy in the United States.

The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. Here, citizens vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens’ ideas and concerns in government. Voting is one way to participate in our democracy. Citizens can also contact their officials when they want to support or change a law. Voting in an election and contacting our elected officials are two ways that Americans can participate in their democracy.

Democrats, do not let Republicans bamboozle anyone on this point, America IS a democracy. Yes, there are times when it might be in doubt, but in principle, though our democracy is far from perfect, so with all of it's flaws, America is a Democracy.

You may have heard of this document which is the Supreme Law in the US. The Constitution mentions the Republic. No where in the document is the word Democracy.

The Founding Fathers were very clear that this country is a Constitutional Republic. You idiots are the ones who have been bamboozled by your handlers into believing that if you don't vote for them then you will lose something the US has never been. I blame the shitty state of the education system.

Why America's Founders Didn't Want a Democracy

In a new book, Randall Holcombe lays out the case for why "the Founders had no intention of designing a government that would respond to the will of the majority."

fee.org

 

[Rumpole]

/—-/ I’m responding to your post: “The right to privacy is not in the constitution. ”
Try and keep up with your own remarks. GEEEZE

No, fucktard, you interjeted yourself into a conversation I was having with someone else, assuming that was the only point in my post, and not serving a prior point.

Keep up, if you are interjecting, go back a few posts to see what the actual thing is that is being debated.

You now have my permission to pull your foot out of your mouth and your head out of your ass.

 

[Cellblock2429]

No, fucktard, you interjeted yourself into a conversation I was having with someone else, assuming that was the only point in my post, and not serving a prior point.

Keep up, if you are interjecting, go back a few posts to see what the actual thing is that is being debated.

You now have my permission to pull your foot out of your mouth and your head out of your ass.

/——/ Unless you are debating on a private board, anyone can jump in and comment. Deal with it.

 

[Rumpole]

You may have heard of this document which is the Supreme Law in the US. The Constitution mentions the Republic. No where in the document is the word Democracy.

The Founding Fathers were very clear that this country is a Constitutional Republic. You idiots are the ones who have been bamboozled by your handlers into believing that if you don't vote for them then you will lose something the US has never been. I blame the shitty state of the education system.

Why America's Founders Didn't Want a Democracy

In a new book, Randall Holcombe lays out the case for why "the Founders had no intention of designing a government that would respond to the will of the majority."

fee.org

then why is it that the ONLY TIME IN HISTORY you guys on the right have been making a stink on this point was in the last 2, 3 decades, tops? Hummm? I'll tell you why, when you guys started losing elections and not winning the hearts and minds of the majority. THEN all of a sudden, oh, America is not a democracy. Give me a break.

'Democracy' is a broad term, it has both parochial application and a broad application. In my 7e years I've heard throughout the halls of academia, the military, society at large, at lectures, books, I've heard America is a Democracy some 50 million or more times.

And right about the time Republicans started losing the popular vote, all of the sudden, they are claiming america is not a democracy.

Sorry, that's pure ignorance. I's probably because DEmocracy doesn't like Republicans that much, it seems. No wonder they claim America isn't democracy, it makes them feel better about the fact that they don't have a majority support,, and can't win a presidential election but for a fluke in the electoral college.

The word 'Republic" without a qualifier, could mean

Islamic Republic
Calvinist Republic
Socialist Republic
Democratic Republic.

All 'Republic" means is a nation of either appointed or elected leaders, as opposed to a Monarchy. that's all it means.

Now, Mssrs Madison and Hamilton used the terms in a very parochial sense, but the terms, in fact, have broader meanings.

THE ONLY TIME I EVER HEARD 'AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY' IS WHEN REPUBLICANS STOPPED WINNING THE POPULAR VOTE.

Bingo.

The United States is a 'democracy' in the general sense of the word, not the parochial sense, to which you are referring. It is also a Republic in the parochial sense of the word. So, Democracy (broad sense), Republic (narrow sense).

We vote in run offs, primaries, and caucuses.
We vote for representatives.
We vote for senators.
We vote for governors
We vote for mayors, government officials from municipal to state levels in every state and municipality in the United States.
We vote for ballot initiatives in many states and municipalities.

In ALL of the above elections, hundreds, if not thousands of them, they are 'majority wins', i.e., 'direct democracy'.

In all of those elections, only one, a combined ticket for the President, and the Vice president, do we vote for electors to pick the president via the electoral college count.

I'd say that qualifies America to be called a democracy. That, in no way, negates any valid criticism of the democracy, but a democracy, nevertheless.

A democracy is often a term referring to....

1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
2. A nation where citizens enjoy certain freedoms, of speech, free assembly, freedom to work, be self-employed, to achieve one's aims, etc.
3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion
4. The right to vote once one is 18.
5. A nation with a government of elected leaders, either directly or indirectly.
6. A Republic, Federal, Constitutional, or otherwise, which is, essentially, a government of elected leaders, indirectly or directly, whose legislation is enacted by the elected representatives constituting a 'representative democracy' generally under the governance of a constitution.

In the general sense of the word, America most certainly is a democracy, and is included in the consortium of democracies also known as 'the liberal western democracies" of the world. It is also a 'Republic' a broad term meaning any government of appointed or elected leaders, either directly or indirectly, in contrast to a Monarch (despite Madison's parochial use of the term, i.e., the US as a representative democracy, notwithstanding, he is most certainly not the final arbiter of the term's broader usages, history is provides us with that).

I'm sorry to report to you republicans, but "Constitutional Republic", "Democracy", "Liberal Democracy", "Western Democracy", these are NOT mutually exclusive terms.


To wit:

...[a] fundamental maxim of republican government...requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22

"majority should prevail'. That's a democracy, it's also a republic, both of which are not mutually exclusive terms. Semantics are at play.

When Madison/Hamilton (i.e., "Publius") was making a distinction between 'Democracy' and 'Republic', favoring a Republic, he wasn't dissing 'Democracy' in the general sense, he was making a distinction between a government where laws are voted on by the electorate, a direct democracy, and one that has laws enacted by a Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature which includes the Vice President when a tie vote needs to be broken. Note that, as any encyclopedia will define, the term 'Republic', is a broad term, and is merely any government that is not a monarchy, where the leaders are either voted in OR appointed. also note that all elections, yes, the many thousands of them from local municipalities on up, excluding only the Vice Pres. and President, are voted via direct democracy, thus. only the VP and the Prez are voted via the EC. (Of course, laws are enacted via the legislature and the Prez but we do have laws, known as 'ballot initiatives' enacted by direct vote in many states). So, we can rightfully state that the vast majority of elections in the United States are done via direct democracy.

There are all types of Republics, there are Constitutional Republics (AKA Democratic Republics aligned with a Constitution) , Islamic Republics, There are Socialist Republics, Calvinist Republics, and so on. But, listening to any Republican, they will assert that a 'Republic" and a "Democracy' are not the same thing. Let's be clear on this point, A Republic may not include a democracy but a democracy is just about always a Republic, and so, most of the time, these days, when we say 'Republic' we are thinking of a democracy of a certain type, which is defined by whatever charter the Republic is aligned with.

America is a Constitutional Republic, AKA "Representative Democracy: AkA "Liberal Democracy" AKA "Western Democracy", noting that Representative Democracy refers to the House of Representatives, and not so much the Electoral College. If we didn't have an EC, America would still be a representative democracy. Now, if anyone is going to claim otherwise, no, I don't buy it, because I've learned this since middle school, read it everywhere I've ever read about politics, heard it spoken on the tongues of pundits, academicians, and leaders of every type since I was a teenager interested in the subject --- we were taught, without exception, "America is a Democracy", and "Democracy is core value in America". I mean, this stupid RNAD thing, it's getting out of hand, and I can clearly see what is driving it.

It's really gotten a lot of traction now, the RNAD myth, given that in the last few decades Republicans are not winning the popular vote, so now they're trying to poo poo democracy, and doing a lot to diminish it, as a matter of fact, and this trope allows them to feel good about doing it. Republics don't like democracy given that of late, it appears that Democracy doesn't like Republicans. Well, they are bringing it on themselves.

Well, I got bad news for Republicans, either you have a democracy or Fascism. It's one or the other and you really need to decide which side you are on. You can move towards one, and when you do, you are moving away from the other, and that, in my view, describes Trumpism, a move away from democracy towards fascism. The Lincoln Repubs recognize this and have rejected Trumpism.

America is all about elections. We have local elections in every municipality in AMerica, thousands of them. We have elections in every state for various state level positions form Governor on down. And then we have elections for the House and the Senate, and finally, The President and Vice president via the electoral college. All sorts of elections, so don't tell me, Republicans, that America is "not" a democracy because the BS
meter is redlining.

 

[Rigby5]

Numbnuts the right to privacy is in the bill of rights which is on the Constitution. All that you mention is in the constitution. You idiot

Wrong.
Privacy is never mentioned in the Bill of Rights, and the SCOTUS had to remind people that most rights are NOT enumerated.

Here is when it first came up:
{...

Olmstead v. United States, 1928​

In 1928, the Supreme Court ruled that wiretaps obtained without a warrant and used as evidence in courts didn't violate the Fourth and Fifth Amendments. In his dissent, Associate Justice Louis Brandeis delivered what is by now one of the most famous assertions that privacy is indeed an individual right. The Founders said Brandeis “conferred against the government, the right to be let alone—the most comprehensive of rights and the rightmost favored by civilized men.” In his dissent, he also argued for a constitutional amendment to guarantee the right to privacy.
...}

 

[Rumpole]

i only gave this a "like" but , after further review, this should close the thread as a winner.

this is a "distinction without a difference" to quote a founder

speaking of which, "a republic madame, if you can keep it" seems malaprop when directed at a person no founder would allow to vote.

yes, semantics rules, republic, democracy, these are not mutually exclusive terms. My argument was to counter those on the right who seem to think they are mutually exclusive terms, which is wrong.

 

[Rigby5]

then why is it that the ONLY TIME IN HISTORY you guys on the right have been making a stink on this point was in the last 2, 3 decades, tops? Hummm? I'll tell you why, when you guys started losing elections and not winning the hearts and minds of the majority. THEN all of a sudden, oh, America is not a democracy. Give me a break.

'Democracy' is a broad term, it has both parochial application and a broad application. In my 7e years I've heard throughout the halls of academia, the military, society at large, at lectures, books, I've heard America is a Democracy some 50 million or more times.

And right about the time Republicans started losing the popular vote, all of the sudden, they are claiming america is not a democracy.

Sorry, that's pure ignorance. I's probably because DEmocracy doesn't like Republicans that much, it seems. No wonder they claim America isn't democracy, it makes them feel better about the fact that they don't have a majority support,, and can't win a presidential election but for a fluke in the electoral college.

The word 'Republic" without a qualifier, could mean

Islamic Republic
Calvinist Republic
Socialist Republic
Democratic Republic.

All 'Republic" means is a nation of either appointed or elected leaders, as opposed to a Monarchy. that's all it means.

Now, Mssrs Madison and Hamilton used the terms in a very parochial sense, but the terms, in fact, have broader meanings.

THE ONLY TIME I EVER HEARD 'AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY' IS WHEN REPUBLICANS STOPPED WINNING THE POPULAR VOTE.

Bingo.

The United States is a 'democracy' in the general sense of the word, not the parochial sense, to which you are referring. It is also a Republic in the parochial sense of the word. So, Democracy (broad sense), Republic (narrow sense).

We vote in run offs, primaries, and caucuses.
We vote for representatives.
We vote for senators.
We vote for governors
We vote for mayors, government officials from municipal to state levels in every state and municipality in the United States.
We vote for ballot initiatives in many states and municipalities.

In ALL of the above elections, hundreds, if not thousands of them, they are 'majority wins', i.e., 'direct democracy'.

In all of those elections, only one, a combined ticket for the President, and the Vice president, do we vote for electors to pick the president via the electoral college count.

I'd say that qualifies America to be called a democracy. That, in no way, negates any valid criticism of the democracy, but a democracy, nevertheless.

A democracy is often a term referring to....

1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
2. A nation where citizens enjoy certain freedoms, of speech, free assembly, freedom to work, be self-employed, to achieve one's aims, etc.
3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion
4. The right to vote once one is 18.
5. A nation with a government of elected leaders, either directly or indirectly.
6. A Republic, Federal, Constitutional, or otherwise, which is, essentially, a government of elected leaders, indirectly or directly, whose legislation is enacted by the elected representatives constituting a 'representative democracy' generally under the governance of a constitution.

In the general sense of the word, America most certainly is a democracy, and is included in the consortium of democracies also known as 'the liberal western democracies" of the world. It is also a 'Republic' a broad term meaning any government of appointed or elected leaders, either directly or indirectly, in contrast to a Monarch (despite Madison's parochial use of the term, i.e., the US as a representative democracy, notwithstanding, he is most certainly not the final arbiter of the term's broader usages, history is provides us with that).

I'm sorry to report to you republicans, but "Constitutional Republic", "Democracy", "Liberal Democracy", "Western Democracy", these are NOT mutually exclusive terms.


To wit:

...[a] fundamental maxim of republican government...requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22

"majority should prevail'. That's a democracy, it's also a republic, both of which are not mutually exclusive terms. Semantics are at play.

When Madison/Hamilton (i.e., "Publius") was making a distinction between 'Democracy' and 'Republic', favoring a Republic, he wasn't dissing 'Democracy' in the general sense, he was making a distinction between a government where laws are voted on by the electorate, a direct democracy, and one that has laws enacted by a Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature which includes the Vice President when a tie vote needs to be broken. Note that, as any encyclopedia will define, the term 'Republic', is a broad term, and is merely any government that is not a monarchy, where the leaders are either voted in OR appointed. also note that all elections, yes, the many thousands of them from local municipalities on up, excluding only the Vice Pres. and President, are voted via direct democracy, thus. only the VP and the Prez are voted via the EC. (Of course, laws are enacted via the legislature and the Prez but we do have laws, known as 'ballot initiatives' enacted by direct vote in many states). So, we can rightfully state that the vast majority of elections in the United States are done via direct democracy.

There are all types of Republics, there are Constitutional Republics (AKA Democratic Republics aligned with a Constitution) , Islamic Republics, There are Socialist Republics, Calvinist Republics, and so on. But, listening to any Republican, they will assert that a 'Republic" and a "Democracy' are not the same thing. Let's be clear on this point, A Republic may not include a democracy but a democracy is just about always a Republic, and so, most of the time, these days, when we say 'Republic' we are thinking of a democracy of a certain type, which is defined by whatever charter the Republic is aligned with.

America is a Constitutional Republic, AKA "Representative Democracy: AkA "Liberal Democracy" AKA "Western Democracy", noting that Representative Democracy refers to the House of Representatives, and not so much the Electoral College. If we didn't have an EC, America would still be a representative democracy. Now, if anyone is going to claim otherwise, no, I don't buy it, because I've learned this since middle school, read it everywhere I've ever read about politics, heard it spoken on the tongues of pundits, academicians, and leaders of every type since I was a teenager interested in the subject --- we were taught, without exception, "America is a Democracy", and "Democracy is core value in America". I mean, this stupid RNAD thing, it's getting out of hand, and I can clearly see what is driving it.

It's really gotten a lot of traction now, the RNAD myth, given that in the last few decades Republicans are not winning the popular vote, so now they're trying to poo poo democracy, and doing a lot to diminish it, as a matter of fact, and this trope allows them to feel good about doing it. Republics don't like democracy given that of late, it appears that Democracy doesn't like Republicans. Well, they are bringing it on themselves.

Well, I got bad news for Republicans, either you have a democracy or Fascism. It's one or the other and you really need to decide which side you are on. You can move towards one, and when you do, you are moving away from the other, and that, in my view, describes Trumpism, a move away from democracy towards fascism. The Lincoln Repubs recognize this and have rejected Trumpism.

America is all about elections. We have local elections in every municipality in AMerica, thousands of them. We have elections in every state for various state level positions form Governor on down. And then we have elections for the House and the Senate, and finally, The President and Vice president via the electoral college. All sorts of elections, so don't tell me, Republicans, that America is "not" a democracy because the BS
meter is redlining.

Wrong.
We KNOW what a "democracy" is, and it was a failed experiment by the ancient Greeks in Athens, where everyone had to vote on any and all legislation directly.
That is mob rule and leads to lynchings, slavery, burning witches, etc.

When someone now say democracy, they actually mean "democratically elected, representative, republic.
But the most significant aspect is "republic", and everyone should be taught that.

 

[Rigby5]

yes, semantics rules, republic, democracy, these are not mutually exclusive terms. My argument was to counter those on the right who seem to think they are mutually exclusive terms, which is wrong.

Yes they are mutually exclusive terms because a democracy can do anything at all the majority wants, like slavery, lynchings, etc.
A republic is constrained not only being representative instead of direct, but also by a constitution to protect individual rights by the Rule of Law.
Totally and completely at odd with each other.

 

[Rumpole]

A democracy is mob rule that no one should want or allow.

So, in all 50 states, governors were elected by direct majority.

Are governors elected, therefore, by 'mobs'?

In all districts, representatives are elected by direct majority.

Are representatives at federal and state levels, elected by 'mobs'?

In a number of states, ballot initiatives are passed by direct majority vote.

Are ballot initiative elected by mobs?

In all but 5 elections since the first election in America was held,. the popular vote agreed with the electoral count. Were all those voting blocks, 'mobs'?

Hmmmm?

 

[Rumpole]

Wrong.
We KNOW what a "democracy" is, and it was a failed experiment by the ancient Greeks in Athens, where everyone had to vote on any and all legislation directly.
That is mob rule and leads to lynchings, slavery, burning witches, etc.

When someone now say democracy, they actually mean "democratically elected, representative, republic.
But the most significant aspect is "republic", and everyone should be taught that.

"Direct democracy' is democracy of a certain type.

The term 'democracy' can include both direct, or indirect.

Even Madisons' parochial use of the term was resisted by his contemporaries.

Democracy - Representation, Equality, Participation

Democracy - Representation, Equality, Participation: Is democracy the most appropriate name for a large-scale representative system such as that of the early United States? At the end of the 18th century, the history of the terms whose literal meaning is “rule by the people”—democracy and...

www.britannica.com

Is democracy the most appropriate name for a large-scale representative system such as that of the early United States? At the end of the 18th century, the history of the terms whose literal meaning is “rule by the people”—democracy and republic—left the answer unclear. Both terms had been applied to the assembly-based systems of Greece and Rome, though neither system assigned legislative powers to representatives elected by members of the dēmos. As noted above, even after Roman citizenship was expanded beyond the city itself and increasing numbers of citizens were prevented from participating in government by the time, expense, and hardship of travel to the city, the complex Roman system of assemblies was never replaced by a government of representatives—a parliament—elected by all Roman citizens. Venetians also called the government of their famous city a republic, though it was certainly not democratic.


When the members of the United States Constitutional Convention met in 1787, terminology was still unsettled. Not only were democracy and republic used more or less interchangeably in the colonies, but no established term existed for a representative government “by the people.” At the same time, the British system was moving swiftly toward full-fledged parliamentary government. Had the framers of the United States Constitution met two generations later, when their understanding of the constitution of Britain would have been radically different, they might have concluded that the British system required only an expansion of the electorate to realize its full democratic potential. Thus, they might well have adopted a parliamentary form of government.


Embarked as they were on a wholly unprecedented effort to construct a constitutional government for an already large and continuously expanding country, the framers could have had no clear idea of how their experiment would work in practice. Fearful of the destructive power of “factions,” for example, they did not foresee that in a country where laws are enacted by representatives chosen by the people in regular and competitive elections, political parties inevitably become fundamentally important institutions.Given the existing confusion over terminology, it is not surprising that the framers employed various terms to describe the novel government they proposed. A few months after the adjournment of the Constitutional Convention, James Madison, the future fourth president of the United States, proposed a usage that would have lasting influence within the country though little elsewhere. In “Federalist 10,” one of 85 essays by Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay known collectively as the Federalist papers, Madison defined a “pure democracy” as “a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person,” and a republic as “a government in which the scheme of representation takes place.” According to Madison, “The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic, are: first, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; secondly, the greater the number of citizens, and greater sphere of country, over which the latter may be extended.” In short, for Madison, democracy meant direct democracy, and republic meant representative government.

Madison's usage was contrived, but, over millenia, up to modernity, the terms have been used in broader contexts. My point is Repubs are stuck on Madison, but he is NOT the final word on this point. Never was.

 

[0311]

You're not here to debate? Then what the fuck are you here for?

I say you are a liar. Or, you just want to sling mud. How quaint. Now fuck off.

He wants to spread Reich Wing Progpaganda.

 

[my2¢]

Much like how Shakespear said of a rose, I don't see where it makes a whole heck of a difference.

If it is any matter that you wish us to be referred to as a democracy, perhaps you can take comfort that China and Iran refer to themselves as republics as well. Or at least in the English names they go by.

 

[0311]

Much like how Shakespear said of a rose, I don't see where it makes a whole heck of a difference.

If it is any matter that you wish us to be referred to as a democracy, perhaps you can take comfort that China and Iran refer to themselves as republics as well. Or at least in the English names they go by.

Direct election's of State Governors. Direct elections State Rerpresentatives. Direct Election of Senators. Direct Electos of Congresspeople. The United States is a Democracy, I know you hate democracy, shut the fuck up buttercup.

 

[Leo123]

You're not here to debate? Then what the fuck are you here for?

I say you are a liar. Or, you just want to sling mud. How quaint. Now fuck off.

You asked me to post an argument. You didn't say anything about debate. Did you forget that?

 

[Cellblock2429]

then why is it that the ONLY TIME IN HISTORY you guys on the right have been making a stink on this point was in the last 2, 3 decades, tops? Hummm? I'll tell you why, when you guys started losing elections and not winning the hearts and minds of the majority. THEN all of a sudden, oh, America is not a democracy. Give me a break.

'Democracy' is a broad term, it has both parochial application and a broad application. In my 7e years I've heard throughout the halls of academia, the military, society at large, at lectures, books, I've heard America is a Democracy some 50 million or more times.

And right about the time Republicans started losing the popular vote, all of the sudden, they are claiming america is not a democracy.

Sorry, that's pure ignorance. I's probably because DEmocracy doesn't like Republicans that much, it seems. No wonder they claim America isn't democracy, it makes them feel better about the fact that they don't have a majority support,, and can't win a presidential election but for a fluke in the electoral college.

The word 'Republic" without a qualifier, could mean

Islamic Republic
Calvinist Republic
Socialist Republic
Democratic Republic.

All 'Republic" means is a nation of either appointed or elected leaders, as opposed to a Monarchy. that's all it means.

Now, Mssrs Madison and Hamilton used the terms in a very parochial sense, but the terms, in fact, have broader meanings.

THE ONLY TIME I EVER HEARD 'AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY' IS WHEN REPUBLICANS STOPPED WINNING THE POPULAR VOTE.

Bingo.

The United States is a 'democracy' in the general sense of the word, not the parochial sense, to which you are referring. It is also a Republic in the parochial sense of the word. So, Democracy (broad sense), Republic (narrow sense).

We vote in run offs, primaries, and caucuses.
We vote for representatives.
We vote for senators.
We vote for governors
We vote for mayors, government officials from municipal to state levels in every state and municipality in the United States.
We vote for ballot initiatives in many states and municipalities.

In ALL of the above elections, hundreds, if not thousands of them, they are 'majority wins', i.e., 'direct democracy'.

In all of those elections, only one, a combined ticket for the President, and the Vice president, do we vote for electors to pick the president via the electoral college count.

I'd say that qualifies America to be called a democracy. That, in no way, negates any valid criticism of the democracy, but a democracy, nevertheless.

A democracy is often a term referring to....

1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
2. A nation where citizens enjoy certain freedoms, of speech, free assembly, freedom to work, be self-employed, to achieve one's aims, etc.
3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion
4. The right to vote once one is 18.
5. A nation with a government of elected leaders, either directly or indirectly.
6. A Republic, Federal, Constitutional, or otherwise, which is, essentially, a government of elected leaders, indirectly or directly, whose legislation is enacted by the elected representatives constituting a 'representative democracy' generally under the governance of a constitution.

In the general sense of the word, America most certainly is a democracy, and is included in the consortium of democracies also known as 'the liberal western democracies" of the world. It is also a 'Republic' a broad term meaning any government of appointed or elected leaders, either directly or indirectly, in contrast to a Monarch (despite Madison's parochial use of the term, i.e., the US as a representative democracy, notwithstanding, he is most certainly not the final arbiter of the term's broader usages, history is provides us with that).

I'm sorry to report to you republicans, but "Constitutional Republic", "Democracy", "Liberal Democracy", "Western Democracy", these are NOT mutually exclusive terms.


To wit:

...[a] fundamental maxim of republican government...requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22

"majority should prevail'. That's a democracy, it's also a republic, both of which are not mutually exclusive terms. Semantics are at play.

When Madison/Hamilton (i.e., "Publius") was making a distinction between 'Democracy' and 'Republic', favoring a Republic, he wasn't dissing 'Democracy' in the general sense, he was making a distinction between a government where laws are voted on by the electorate, a direct democracy, and one that has laws enacted by a Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature which includes the Vice President when a tie vote needs to be broken. Note that, as any encyclopedia will define, the term 'Republic', is a broad term, and is merely any government that is not a monarchy, where the leaders are either voted in OR appointed. also note that all elections, yes, the many thousands of them from local municipalities on up, excluding only the Vice Pres. and President, are voted via direct democracy, thus. only the VP and the Prez are voted via the EC. (Of course, laws are enacted via the legislature and the Prez but we do have laws, known as 'ballot initiatives' enacted by direct vote in many states). So, we can rightfully state that the vast majority of elections in the United States are done via direct democracy.

There are all types of Republics, there are Constitutional Republics (AKA Democratic Republics aligned with a Constitution) , Islamic Republics, There are Socialist Republics, Calvinist Republics, and so on. But, listening to any Republican, they will assert that a 'Republic" and a "Democracy' are not the same thing. Let's be clear on this point, A Republic may not include a democracy but a democracy is just about always a Republic, and so, most of the time, these days, when we say 'Republic' we are thinking of a democracy of a certain type, which is defined by whatever charter the Republic is aligned with.

America is a Constitutional Republic, AKA "Representative Democracy: AkA "Liberal Democracy" AKA "Western Democracy", noting that Representative Democracy refers to the House of Representatives, and not so much the Electoral College. If we didn't have an EC, America would still be a representative democracy. Now, if anyone is going to claim otherwise, no, I don't buy it, because I've learned this since middle school, read it everywhere I've ever read about politics, heard it spoken on the tongues of pundits, academicians, and leaders of every type since I was a teenager interested in the subject --- we were taught, without exception, "America is a Democracy", and "Democracy is core value in America". I mean, this stupid RNAD thing, it's getting out of hand, and I can clearly see what is driving it.

It's really gotten a lot of traction now, the RNAD myth, given that in the last few decades Republicans are not winning the popular vote, so now they're trying to poo poo democracy, and doing a lot to diminish it, as a matter of fact, and this trope allows them to feel good about doing it. Republics don't like democracy given that of late, it appears that Democracy doesn't like Republicans. Well, they are bringing it on themselves.

Well, I got bad news for Republicans, either you have a democracy or Fascism. It's one or the other and you really need to decide which side you are on. You can move towards one, and when you do, you are moving away from the other, and that, in my view, describes Trumpism, a move away from democracy towards fascism. The Lincoln Repubs recognize this and have rejected Trumpism.

America is all about elections. We have local elections in every municipality in AMerica, thousands of them. We have elections in every state for various state level positions form Governor on down. And then we have elections for the House and the Senate, and finally, The President and Vice president via the electoral college. All sorts of elections, so don't tell me, Republicans, that America is "not" a democracy because the BS
meter is redlining.

/——/ What a load of crap. I’m 72 and I recall this argument even when a Republican was president. And your notion that we only care about it when we lose is just plain stupid.
Except for president all other elections are majority rules, you know nothing.

 

[jc456]

Who the fuck gives one turd about you?

I do!! So please stop misinforming

 

[my2¢]

I know you hate democracy, shut the fuck up buttercup.

My believing it makes no difference (whether we're referred to as a Republic or Democracy) equates to hating democracy? Jeez, you're so sensitive, I hurt your whittle feelings.

 

[OKTexas]

I'm going explain to you, at the 3rd grade level, what a fucking idiot you are.

Do you see what the topic is? Got that?

Now listen up, fuckface, the ONLY reason I pointed those items out was that someone said 'democracy' wasn't in the constitution, implying that because it wasn't in the constitution, that America,. therefore, can't be a democracy.

I countered with a list if items that do exist, but are not in the constitution deconstructing that argument.

Now do you understand, you dumbass fucktard?

What a fucking dipshit you people on the right are. I swear, there are more right ring morons on this forum that most forums I've had the occasion to visit.

Don't try to gaslight someone who knows the Constitution, which you obviously don't. I'm just surprised two of your comrades gave your post a positive rating, I guess they are just as ignorant as you are

BTW, a couple of the items you used in your little "deconstruction" are explicitly mentioned in the Constitution.

Now take your little BS and your fawning comrades and fuck off.

.

 

[Rumpole]

Don't try to gaslight someone who knows the Constitution, which you obviously don't. I'm just surprised two of your comrades gave your post a positive rating, I guess they are just as ignorant as you are

BTW, a couple of the items you used in your little "deconstruction" are explicitly mentioned in the Constitution.

Now take your little BS and your fawning comrades and fuck off.

.

Ahh, so, on top if it all, your a projectionist.

Wonderful.

Back up your claim, hot shot, or you are dismissed.

Oh yeah, now you are twisting my words with 'mentioned', did I say 'show me where the vote is mentioned?"

No, fucktard, that is not what I said. now pay attention, I know it's hard, but try harder this time;

Show me the explicit chapter, line, quote that says the right to privacy is in the constitution.

Show me the chapter, line, quote that says the right for judicial review is in the constitution.

Show me the chapter, line, quote that says the right to vote is in the constitution.

And if you think those are in the constitution, they are not. So, clearly, you do not know the constitution. No, I didn't say mention, I said 'right to....." got that, asshole? We're talking about rights. Are they penumbra rights? Probably, but that isn't the point. The point is they are NOT in the constitution just as 'democracy' is not in the constitution, but that fact does not prove that America is not a democracy, which WAS MY POINT ALL ALONG (the thread title should be the fucking tip off) I was making to bigreb, which you are pettifogging on my examples, which aren't the point.


See, Bigreb was claiming democracy not in the constitution, therefore, 'America isn't a democracy', so I raised the above points, deconstructing his point.

But no, you had to pettifog my conversation harping on my examples, and ignoring the actual argument, which you were unaware of because you didn't check back to see what the conversation was about, like a fool would do. You do a drive-by and think you are hot shit, and you most certainly are not.

Of For fucks sake, I have to repeat myself to make sure you get it, because you are so gawddamn stupid.

Pay attention, jerk breath.

 

[OKTexas]

Ahh, so, on top if it all, your a projectionist.

Wonderful.

Back up your claim, hot shot, or you are dismissed.

Oh yeah, now you are twisting my words with 'mentioned', did I say 'show me where the vote is mentioned?"

No, fucktard, that is not what I said. now pay attention, I know it's hard, but try harder this time;

Show me the explicit chapter, line, quote that says the right to privacy is in the constitution.

Show me the chapter, line, quote that says the right for judicial review is in the constitution.

Show me the chapter, line, quote that says the right to vote is in the constitution.

And if you think those are in the constitution, they are not. So, clearly, you do not know the constitution. No, I didn't say mention, I said 'right to....." got that, asshole? We're talking about rights. Are they penumbra rights? Probably, but that isn't the point. The point is they are NOT in the constitution just as 'democracy' is not in the constitution, but that fact does not prove that America is not a democracy, which WAS MY POINT ALL ALONG (the thread title should be the fucking tip off) I was making to bigreb, which you are pettifogging on my examples, which aren't the point.


See, Bigreb was claiming democracy not in the constitution, therefore, 'America isn't a democracy', so I raised the above points, deconstructing his point.

But no, you had to pettifog my conversation harping on my examples, and ignoring the actual argument, which you were unaware of because you didn't check back to see what the conversation was about, like a fool would do. You do a drive-by and think you are hot shit, and you most certainly are not.

Of For fucks sake, I have to repeat myself to make sure you get it, because you are so gawddamn stupid.

Pay attention, jerk breath.

Been there done that freak, see post 291. Oh and I forgot one in that post, "Jury", see Article 3, Section 2. Now once again, take your semantics game and shove it.

.