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It's totally discriminatory. And I vehemently disagree with the baker's bigotry. I wouldn't do business with someone like that.It can’t be discriminatory practice if the baker doesn’t offer same sex wedding cakes regardless what the sexuality of the couple is!
It's totally discriminatory. And I vehemently disagree with the baker's bigotry. I wouldn't do business with someone like that.
But we're all entitled to have our biases and preferences, and to act on them. To me, it's insane to have government going around second guessing our decisions in this regard.
So, you think "actual" discrimination should be illegal?Nope, it is the picture of non discriminatory practice.
So, you think "actual" discrimination should be illegal?
Ok, whatever. I'm not going to debate with you whether the baker was discriminating. Seems to me pretty obvious he was, but my point is that anti-discrimination laws are overreaching government and violate basic individual rights. You, apparently, think those laws are fine - you just want an exemption for homophobes.If the baker simply does not offer a product, no discrimination legal or illegal exists.
Not a constitutional issue. You don't have a right to break the law and use religion as an excuse. Otherwise, I would have the right to cut out my ex-boss's heart with an obsidian knife to please the Aztec Deities I just started worshipping last week.
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Aw, who am I kidding... that guy didn't have heart.
Events he was perfectly willing to make cakes for if they belonged to certain groups (Heterosexuals).
Only after Congress passed a law, which they only passed after SCOTUS ruled that the first Amendment doesn't protect drug use for religious purposes. You kind of made my point. Do you even read your own links.
yet is is illegal. Now, I'd have no problem making it legal, either, as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult. But the point is, we have a law that says that you can't marry more than one person at a time. Period. Full stop.
What's the difference? How do we know that God wasn't talking to David Koresh any more than he was talking to Joseph Smith, Mohammed or Jesus? Maybe God just likes to fuck with people and tell them crazy stuff to see how it plays out.
Point was, the Branch Davidians believed that God said they should stockpile guns and give their wives and daughters to Koresh as sex slaves. The government had something to say about that.
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Winner of the Darwin Award, 1993
Yes, they do. Some religions- get this - even think Gays should be able to get married! So if there is a church somewhere who approves of this, he really doesn't have a leg to stand on to deny them.
Not a constitutional issue. You don't have a right to break the law and use religion as an excuse. Otherwise, I would have the right to cut out my ex-boss's heart with an obsidian knife to please the Aztec Deities I just started worshipping last week.
Events he was perfectly willing to make cakes for if they belonged to certain groups (Heterosexuals).
yet is is illegal. Now, I'd have no problem making it legal, either, as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult. But the point is, we have a law that says that you can't marry more than one person at a time. Period. Full stop.
What's the difference? How do we know that God wasn't talking to David Koresh any more than he was talking to Joseph Smith, Mohammed or Jesus? Maybe God just likes to fuck with people and tell them crazy stuff to see how it plays out.
Point was, the Branch Davidians believed that God said they should stockpile guns and give their wives and daughters to Koresh as sex slaves. The government had something to say about that.
Yes, they do. Some religions- get this - even think Gays should be able to get married! So if there is a church somewhere who approves of this, he really doesn't have a leg to stand on to deny them.
Children who respect the rights of others - something you apparently can't grasp.
Ohhh... well, maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe you're polishing up your jackboots at this moment. Or, maybe you're just hoping the government will force your will on others because you don't have the balls to do it yourself.
No, it's exactly the point. We have rules to govern bakeries that are just as much for the protection of the customer as the baker. And the end of the day, this was a dispute between the baker and the customer, and the baker was in violation of the law.That's not the point. But I'm sure you know that and are just evading.
Within reason, yes.Yes, and for you, I suppose, the majority should always get its way.
The gall!! Who does he think he is? The government should keep all businesses on a short leash and supervise all their hiring and customer service decisions.And you nitwits whine when people call you socialists.
Bottom line - liberal social engineering has completely jumped the shark. You simply can't control other people the way you'd like, and if you keep trying the whole thing will go down in flames.
www.reuters.com
Shush, the grownups are talking.Joe absolutely kills me!
The problem is, whenever I hear a wingnut talk about "rights" or "Freedoms" they usually mean the ability of those with wealth and privilege to oppress those without it. they certainly don't mean a woman being able to practice the birth control of her choice or gays to marry who they want.
Quite the contrary, we can't have civilization without order. Me, I find it a pain in the ass when a cop pulls me over for a moving violation. But it would be a LOT worse if we had no traffic laws and Rush Hour looked like a Mad Max movie.
But libertarian children think civilization happens without taxes, laws, and rules.
No, it's exactly the point. We have rules to govern bakeries that are just as much for the protection of the customer as the baker. And the end of the day, this was a dispute between the baker and the customer, and the baker was in violation of the law.
Within reason, yes.
Actually, most people support the rights of gays to get services.
Most Americans oppose businesses refusing to serve gay people: Reuters/Ipsos poll
Nearly three quarters of U.S. adults believe that businesses should not have the right on religious grounds to deny services to customers based on their sexual orientation, a Reuters/Ipsos opinion poll released on Monday showed.
if he refused the right of an interracial couple to get
Shush, the grownups are talking.
People like to bring up sacrifices and cannibalism as an argument against religious freedom. I’ll give you and answer you probably are not expecting…and that is: if you belong to a religion that practices that sort of thing, and if you want to offer yourself up as a sacrifice, or as a cannibal sacrifice, as long as you’re willing….have at it. If you don’t want to risk it happening to you…don’t join that religion.
As far as your boss goes, if he’s not part of your religion, then no, you would not be able to cut his heart out.
Just like the nobody is going to force those Muslim truckers to violate their religion by forcing them to help someone else commit a sin, same goes for Phillips.
Again, you are being misleading. There’s no evidence to suggest that he won’t serve gay people for any other reason. If there was, by now, they’d be coming out of the woodwork to accuse him of not serving them…at all.
Yeah, and it’s wrong and should be appealed…government has no business in the bedroom. By the way, why hasn’t anyone proposed that? Polygamy is generally considered to be demeaning to women, which is probably why the law still exists, but, in todays age of freedom to marry whoever you want, I don’t understand why it’s not been brought up. If you are a woman and want to be one of 5 wives, you should be able to.
Korean thought he was a prophet, I don’t know any place in the Bible that says people should stockpile weapons.
The difference between the two, however, is that cults often tend to portray themselves as messengers of God…people observing a religion just practice what is written in their holy book.
As I’ve said, there are people in certain religions that have different views on things, just like marriage. Odds are, the churches that accept gay marriage don’t actually believe it’s biblical, they probably just accept it as they don’t believe it’s a big deal. That doesn’t mean they are right, or that Phillips is wrong. What does the Bible say about it?
Then he needs to go find something else to do for a living.I’m not saying it’s perfect, but I’m not the judge of what other people hold to be religious or not, all I know is the Bible does speak against same sex relations, and Phillips, while not refusing service to same sex couples, just won’t do same sex weddings.
i don't. YOu keep waiving your arms up and down like an autistic five year old on a sugar rush trying to get attention.Then why do you keep calling me back to the table??????
I support public accommodation laws. If there is a cake already on display and a gay couple wants to buy it, then the baker does not have the right to refuse.
I do not support forced speech, however, so demands that the baker CREATE a cake or write something on an existing cake, they should be able to refuse.
You miss the point. The Aztecs didn't sacrifice willing subjects, they sacrificed their enemies. In fact the reason why the other tribes joined the Spanish was that they were sick of the Aztecs killing them en masse.
So if I am exempt from laws that offend my religion, I should be totally able to sacrifice my boss to the Winged Serpent!
nope. Because they weren't suing Philips personally, they were suing Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd. A business entity. Businesses aren't people, my friend. (To paraphrase Mitt Romney).
Not relevant.
Except that there's no popular will to change the law.
Nope. There's no difference at all. The only difference is a religion has gotten to the point where it is established and respected. Koresh was molesting kids, but so was the Catholic Church, and I didn't see anyone storming St. Marks.
If you want to go by what the bible says, you need to stone any of your neighbors who work on Sunday.
Then he needs to go find something else to do for a living.
i don't. YOu keep waiving your arms up and down like an autistic five year old on a sugar rush trying to get attention.
Cakes aren't speech. They are a product. No one is 'forcing' him, he opened a shop and offered the services.
You have a right to whatever backwards, bronze age supersitions you want to selectively follow. Your business, however, has to comply with the state laws.
And this protects religious people as much as gay people. Left to your own devices, you'd all be killing each other over whether or not Jesus was made out of wafers.
BINGO JOE, and they can’t force him to sell a product his bakery does not offer!
Feel better now?
He’s never made a self mutilation celebration cake for anyone. It’s a product he does not carry.But his bakery offers cakes with multiple colors of icing.
That is well said, and succinct too.But libertarian children think civilization happens without taxes, laws, and rules.
"...and they can’t force him to sell a product his bakery does not offer!"
He’s never made a self mutilation celebration cake for anyone. It’s a product he does not carry.
That is well said, and succinct too.
Thank you, Joe.
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Yeah, that seems so obvious.
(So let's do this again. After all, we've done it twice in this thread and poor Norm still hasn't gotten the hint)
OK, Norm's baker doesn't offer the cake on the left....because it will be eaten at a wedding for a same sex couple. Duh! That is so obvious.
However, he does offer the cake on the right because it won't be eaten by people at a same-sex wedding.
I cannot conceive how anyone could mistake one for the other.
After all, he doesn't offer the one on the left.....so how could anyone eat it?
And as we know, Norm defines which cake is which by who eats it.
Duh!
Not for Sale .............................For Sale.
Or, the gay couple needs to respect his rights and find another bakery.You miss the point. The Aztecs didn't sacrifice willing subjects, they sacrificed their enemies. In fact the reason why the other tribes joined the Spanish was that they were sick of the Aztecs killing them en masse.
So if I am exempt from laws that offend my religion, I should be totally able to sacrifice my boss to the Winged Serpent!
nope. Because they weren't suing Philips personally, they were suing Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd. A business entity. Businesses aren't people, my friend. (To paraphrase Mitt Romney).
Not relevant.
Except that there's no popular will to change the law.
Nope. There's no difference at all. The only difference is a religion has gotten to the point where it is established and respected. Koresh was molesting kids, but so was the Catholic Church, and I didn't see anyone storming St. Marks.
If you want to go by what the bible says, you need to stone any of your neighbors who work on Sunday.
Then he needs to go find something else to do for a living.
Cake is simply a human construct. So walking out with an empty box is actually a cake.The cake was not mutilated, it merely had two colors of icing. The purpose of the cake once it leaves the bakery is none of the bakers business.
