Christians and abortion like a fish with a bicycle?

[Jurginvoncelle]

I would love to see an actual Christian DEBATE (rather than an argument) dealing The abortion issue, I do not desire anger or disgust, merely to voice opinions based upon opinions of scripture:

In Genisus God laid out the science of physics; light, time, space, and all forms of matter. “Man” (humans) are contained in this earthly body moving about in this physical world. We are eternal spirits contained within a human form, when we die the container is left behind. Pregnancy is the forming of this container. Surely we can agree on this.

The human soul is contained by a body. Just as you identify a container, by what it holds, IE a glass of water, a bottle of wine etc. Paul said “I pray I know you by your spirit”. It is not about the body, it is about the soul. The “breath of life” is the act of the soul entering into body. As in Genesis Chapter 2 verse 7 says “AND God breathed the breath of life into Adam’s nostrils and man became a living soul.” A body without breath is just flesh. A fetus is alive, but after the birth has a soul. Whether or not you believe the act of abortion is murder, depends upon if you believe that a life is taken, or a soul has simply been given no container within the “time” that God has created for us. Spirits have no time, rather are eternal. I agree with the Christian doctrine of predestination, or I would not be a Christian, and neither would anyone else. God has plans for all souls. However if the argument of abortion is murder, would not that discount the fact that God doesn’t know whether a fetus will or will not be aborted.
For plausibility reverse the statement “where there is breath there is hope” to possibly mean “where there is no breath (lack of life) there is no need for hope”?

 

[Smartt33]

I would love to see an actual Christian DEBATE (rather than an argument) dealing The abortion issue, I do not desire anger or disgust, merely to voice opinions based upon opinions of scripture:

In Genisus God laid out the science of physics; light, time, space, and all forms of matter. “Man” (humans) are contained in this earthly body moving about in this physical world. We are eternal spirits contained within a human form, when we die the container is left behind. Pregnancy is the forming of this container. Surely we can agree on this.

The human soul is contained by a body. Just as you identify a container, by what it holds, IE a glass of water, a bottle of wine etc. Paul said “I pray I know you by your spirit”. It is not about the body, it is about the soul. The “breath of life” is the act of the soul entering into body. As in Genesis Chapter 2 verse 7 says “AND God breathed the breath of life into Adam’s nostrils and man became a living soul.” A body without breath is just flesh. A fetus is alive, but after the birth has a soul. Whether or not you believe the act of abortion is murder, depends upon if you believe that a life is taken, or a soul has simply been given no container within the “time” that God has created for us. Spirits have no time, rather are eternal. I agree with the Christian doctrine of predestination, or I would not be a Christian, and neither would anyone else. God has plans for all souls. However if the argument of abortion is murder, would not that discount the fact that God doesn’t know whether a fetus will or will not be aborted.
For plausibility reverse the statement “where there is breath there is hope” to possibly mean “where there is no breath (lack of life) there is no need for hope”?

What about God's point of view? He says we are "fearfully and wonderfully made." Was that a lie? When were we made? Just asGod formed Adam and Eve, so He formed us in the womb. He gave every bit of the same care and love in creating each of us. Read Psalm 139, it is clear. He knitted us together in the womb, but not so we could tear it apart as do abortions.

Or woud you just ignore that part of God's creation as being insignificant?

 

[Newby]

I would love to see an actual Christian DEBATE (rather than an argument) dealing The abortion issue, I do not desire anger or disgust, merely to voice opinions based upon opinions of scripture:

In Genisus God laid out the science of physics; light, time, space, and all forms of matter. “Man” (humans) are contained in this earthly body moving about in this physical world. We are eternal spirits contained within a human form, when we die the container is left behind. Pregnancy is the forming of this container. Surely we can agree on this.

The human soul is contained by a body. Just as you identify a container, by what it holds, IE a glass of water, a bottle of wine etc. Paul said “I pray I know you by your spirit”. It is not about the body, it is about the soul. The “breath of life” is the act of the soul entering into body. As in Genesis Chapter 2 verse 7 says “AND God breathed the breath of life into Adam’s nostrils and man became a living soul.” A body without breath is just flesh. A fetus is alive, but after the birth has a soul. Whether or not you believe the act of abortion is murder, depends upon if you believe that a life is taken, or a soul has simply been given no container within the “time” that God has created for us. Spirits have no time, rather are eternal. I agree with the Christian doctrine of predestination, or I would not be a Christian, and neither would anyone else. God has plans for all souls. However if the argument of abortion is murder, would not that discount the fact that God doesn’t know whether a fetus will or will not be aborted.
For plausibility reverse the statement “where there is breath there is hope” to possibly mean “where there is no breath (lack of life) there is no need for hope”?

God may have plans for all souls, but he also gave all free will. Whether or not he knows if a fetus will be aborted is irrelevant, the mother is practicing her free will to kill the child she is carrying. He cannot intervene in her act of free will, just as He cannot act in other terrible events that take place due to mankinds free will.

 

[Missourian]

""Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Jeremiah 1:5​

 

[Jurginvoncelle]

""Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Jeremiah 1:5​

We have already stated the God has a plan for all life.

And does this statement from our God refer to the pre-existence of the human soul waiting for a container, to be placed within the “physical” and held for a “time”?

You seem to support, the inseparability of an un-breathing flesh container that is fed thru the mother's body. You would argue the flesh has contracted a soul at the exact time of penetration of a single sperm into an unfertilized egg?

No human fertilization becomes something else. It is a container “made in our image.”
Make no mistake I believe “life” begins at conception. The argument is whether said configuration has a soul.

For argument, How can 2 souls co-exist spiritually within the same host?

Do you not believe the eventual birth and therefore unavoidable physical separation between mother and child would be even greater if a fetus had a soul?

Is the mother not just a life support system at this point of time,
as the bible said “Time was created for humans”.
Spirits have no need for time, but they do need containers for this physical world.

And someone please address the issue As in Genesis Chapter 2 verse 7 says “AND God breathed the breath of life into Adam’s nostrils and man became a living soul.” A body without “breath” is just flesh. A fetus is alive, but after the birth would have a soul, the “Breath of life”.
Is it more than coincidence a child be born with mucus plugs in it’s nose, if Genesis made it such a point?

 

[Smartt33]

""Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Jeremiah 1:5​

We have already stated the God has a plan for all life.

And does this statement from our God refer to the pre-existence of the human soul waiting for a container, to be placed within the “physical” and held for a “time”?

You seem to support, the inseparability of an un-breathing flesh container that is fed thru the mother's body. You would argue the flesh has contracted a soul at the exact time of penetration of a single sperm into an unfertilized egg?

No human fertilization becomes something else. It is a container “made in our image.”
Make no mistake I believe “life” begins at conception. The argument is whether said configuration has a soul.

For argument, How can 2 souls co-exist spiritually within the same host?

Do you not believe the eventual birth and therefore unavoidable physical separation between mother and child would be even greater if a fetus had a soul?

Is the mother not just a life support system at this point of time,
as the bible said “Time was created for humans”.
Spirits have no need for time, but they do need containers for this physical world.

And someone please address the issue As in Genesis Chapter 2 verse 7 says “AND God breathed the breath of life into Adam’s nostrils and man became a living soul.” A body without “breath” is just flesh. A fetus is alive, but after the birth would have a soul, the “Breath of life”.
Is it more than coincidence a child be born with mucus plugs in it’s nose, if Genesis made it such a point?

I am not sure just what you have been trying to say. You are bouncing around something, but what is it? Do you believe abortion is OK because you think there is no soul in the life that is unborn?

Here is my thought on the things you are saying. I believe that when Gods made Adam, that was His creation of "manking." Made in His image. I believe that "breath of life" was for mankind, not just Adam. The breath of life that He gave Adam was mankind's breath of life. If that were not so, I believe Eve would not have a soul. At least that is how it would be if every person has to have that breath directly from God when they are born. I believe God is involved in our being even from before conception. He knew us, but we were not yet alive.

 

[Cal]

I consider myself to be a Christian and I support a womans right to choose. IMO, This site does a pretty good job of explaining why Christians should respect a womans right to choice..
Why Christians and Jews should be pro-choice

 

[Jurginvoncelle]

Now here is a passage in which the Scripture appears to say that "The Lord" instructs the clergy to use an abortifacient drink to expose a wife's infidelity:
Numbers 5: 11 – 31
also

Exodus 21: 22 – 25
reads:
"When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, ( i.e. an 'involuntary abortion') and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman's husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine.
If any harm follows (to the human being involved here), then you shall give life for life (i.e. death penalty), eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

If the fetus is as much a human being as the mother, why does the death of the full-size human merit capital punishment, while all the death of the premature human being merits is a fine?

 

[Jurginvoncelle]

""Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Jeremiah 1:5​

We have already stated the God has a plan for all life.

And does this statement from our God refer to the pre-existence of the human soul waiting for a container, to be placed within the “physical” and held for a “time”?

You seem to support, the inseparability of an un-breathing flesh container that is fed thru the mother's body. You would argue the flesh has contracted a soul at the exact time of penetration of a single sperm into an unfertilized egg?

No human fertilization becomes something else. It is a container “made in our image.”
Make no mistake I believe “life” begins at conception. The argument is whether said configuration has a soul.

For argument, How can 2 souls co-exist spiritually within the same host?

Do you not believe the eventual birth and therefore unavoidable physical separation between mother and child would be even greater if a fetus had a soul?

Is the mother not just a life support system at this point of time,
as the bible said “Time was created for humans”.
Spirits have no need for time, but they do need containers for this physical world.

And someone please address the issue As in Genesis Chapter 2 verse 7 says “AND God breathed the breath of life into Adam’s nostrils and man became a living soul.” A body without “breath” is just flesh. A fetus is alive, but after the birth would have a soul, the “Breath of life”.
Is it more than coincidence a child be born with mucus plugs in it’s nose, if Genesis made it such a point?

I am not sure just what you have been trying to say. You are bouncind around something, but what is it? Do you believe abortion is OK because you think there is no soul in the life that is unborn?

Here is my thought on the things you are saying. I believe that when Gods made Adam, that was His creation of "manking." Made in His image. I believe that "breath of life" was for mankind, not just Adam. The breath of life that He gave Adam was mankind's breath of life. If that were not so, I believe Eve would not have a soul. At least that is how it would be if every person has to have that breath directly from God when they are born. I believe God is involved in our being even from before conception. He knew us, but we were not yet alive.

While in existence, (the act of "being"); a leg is part of a "human" but no one could argue that a leg is a "human being".
The leg grows thru time and continues to grow and/or change, as long as it attached to your body. Regardless of size it remains recognized as a leg, and will never become anything other than a leg.
While said leg is “a part of your life”, it is not “a life apart”.
IE It cannot exist on it's own and if amputated will die.
Your life will continue (barring complications etc).

Although it does seem to be the norm of the “freedom of choice” and justifiable as a debate. The above is not my TOTAL argument. I think this a controversial, and seemingly flippant, and uncaring approach to ending a pregnancy. My idea goes a bit further.

Rather my question is If a human soul is contained within a human body, then when does this body become human enough to contain such a spirit? Sighting Genisis 2;7 was my battle line. My argument is birth begins a separate soul, and a "belly button" is my proof. We do not remove 10 lunar months from a birth date, and celebrate a day of conception, rather a Birth day remains a celebration of life.
I welcome debate upon this issue.

 

[Smartt33]

We have already stated the God has a plan for all life.

And does this statement from our God refer to the pre-existence of the human soul waiting for a container, to be placed within the “physical” and held for a “time”?

You seem to support, the inseparability of an un-breathing flesh container that is fed thru the mother's body. You would argue the flesh has contracted a soul at the exact time of penetration of a single sperm into an unfertilized egg?

No human fertilization becomes something else. It is a container “made in our image.”
Make no mistake I believe “life” begins at conception. The argument is whether said configuration has a soul.

For argument, How can 2 souls co-exist spiritually within the same host?

Do you not believe the eventual birth and therefore unavoidable physical separation between mother and child would be even greater if a fetus had a soul?

Is the mother not just a life support system at this point of time,
as the bible said “Time was created for humans”.
Spirits have no need for time, but they do need containers for this physical world.

And someone please address the issue As in Genesis Chapter 2 verse 7 says “AND God breathed the breath of life into Adam’s nostrils and man became a living soul.” A body without “breath” is just flesh. A fetus is alive, but after the birth would have a soul, the “Breath of life”.
Is it more than coincidence a child be born with mucus plugs in it’s nose, if Genesis made it such a point?

I am not sure just what you have been trying to say. You are bouncind around something, but what is it? Do you believe abortion is OK because you think there is no soul in the life that is unborn?

Here is my thought on the things you are saying. I believe that when Gods made Adam, that was His creation of "manking." Made in His image. I believe that "breath of life" was for mankind, not just Adam. The breath of life that He gave Adam was mankind's breath of life. If that were not so, I believe Eve would not have a soul. At least that is how it would be if every person has to have that breath directly from God when they are born. I believe God is involved in our being even from before conception. He knew us, but we were not yet alive.

While in existence, (the act of "being"); a leg is part of a "human" but no one could argue that a leg is a "human being".
The leg grows thru time and continues to grow and/or change, as long as it attached to your body. Regardless of size it remains recognized as a leg, and will never become anything other than a leg.
While said leg is “a part of your life”, it is not “a life apart”.
IE It cannot exist on it's own and if amputated will die.
Your life will continue (barring complications etc).

Although it does seem to be the norm of the “freedom of choice” and justifiable as a debate. The above is not my TOTAL argument. I think this a controversial, and seemingly flippant, and uncaring approach to ending a pregnancy. My idea goes a bit further.

Rather my question is If a human soul is contained within a human body, then when does this body become human enough to contain such a spirit? Sighting Genisis 2;7 was my battle line. My argument is birth begins a separate soul, and a "belly button" is my proof. We do not remove 10 lunar months from a birth date, and celebrate a day of conception, rather a Birth day remains a celebration of life.
I welcome debate upon this issue.

So, would you say that a person who is on a breathing machine because he cannot breathe on his own, no longer has life? Does he have a soul living in him?

I say that soul has been a part of who he was from conception, how he breathes makes no difference. The breathing of life that God dis for Adam was the breath of "eternel life" which then continued through Adam to all mankind.

 

[Newby]

I consider myself to be a Christian and I support a womans right to choose. IMO, This site does a pretty good job of explaining why Christians should respect a womans right to choice..
Why Christians and Jews should be pro-choice

Sorry, not very compelling in my opinion. They are just setting their own definitions and interpreting scripture for how they wish to see it. It's no different than what you say the pro-life point of view does.

 

[Jurginvoncelle]

So, would you say that a person who is on a breathing machine because he cannot breathe on his own, no longer has life? Does he have a soul living in him?

I say that soul has been a part of who he was from conception, how he breathes makes no difference. The breathing of life that God dis for Adam was the breath of "eternel life" which then continued through Adam to all mankind.

No as a matter of fact I would not say that. The soul has entered the body at birth and will remain in it's container, until the point of death. It is trapped within time and space, and held within its container that occupies space in this physical world.

The "death rattle" it the last breath as an exhale. You CAN actually here it leave! There are many who have heard this, and am sure they will attest to their experience, as will I to my own.

If put onto breathing machines, the body will live, however does this action delay a souls hereafter? Would us as humans have that right?
For that argument what is a coma? And yet some recover.
To be absent from the body is to be with God, the bible says. Hmmm. Interesting.

Once the soul leaves the body the "breath of life" , the soul, leaves with it. Epinephrine will keep the heart beating, breathing machines will supply the lungs with air, but are you in fact imprisoning a soul who's time has come for the great beyond? Is this hostage to the material plane, imprisoned within their own body? A prison of a human container?

This argument of abortion is more than just the fact of right to life, perhaps it is also; a right to death.

Let me present you with my thoughts of “the next life”:
We are spirits having human experiences, not vice versa; because this is what we perceive to be "real". Our eyes see, our ears hear, we have the 5 (some argue 6) scenes. There exists colors you can not see because of human eyes, and sounds to complex for earthy ears. All remain unknown because of a human body, and it's an limiting filter to our souls consciousness. No one argues that life should be given a chance, but assisted life and death could be biblically argued as illegal/immoral to both points of view.
This link between the body to the soul is what our soul is given for this world. This is what I believe makes heaven even more wonderful, and hell all the more unbearable. Free from the physical, the soul will know no limitation of perception. More than the body can withstand will not be a factor, for neither pleasure nor pain.
In our lack for comparisons, we have no basis. Rather we attempt to make sense although physical perception. This may be justifiable or not, we are humans and we are not infallible.

We do certainly have laws, and decency would call the government to step out of these difficult personal, individual, and family decision(s), especially where we consider the immortal hereafter, and physical lives of loved ones left behind.