Zone1 Question for Christians.

[hadit]

Some other denominations leave things out. It has even been pointed out that Reformers went through scripture and decided to take things out. I point out that Catholics have retained tradition as well as scripture while other denominations forego tradition. Because these traditions have been retained by the Catholic Church, I do have more and the denominations I have attended with family and friends have less. I note the differences. When non-Catholic family and friends come with me to Mass, they note the differences. They note the burdens, they do not see riches, or if they do, they feel they are distractions. Different perspectives have always interested me. People see things differently. And these differences have nothing to do with superiority, it has to do with differing perspectives--and respecting these perspectives.

No, I am not arguing semantics. I'm merely offering a different perspective that, naturally, can be dismissed.

I do not dismiss your perspective, merely note that I grew up in a tradition rich environment where every aspect of everyday life was governed by traditions. My grandfather was nearly excommunicated because he had a radio. Study the Amish and Mennonites before you dismiss other denominations as not having traditions.

 

[Meriweather]

Hear me on this. Jesus, at the same time as He gave us communion, commanded us to wash each other's feet as well. Do you literally wash each other's feet, as practiced by Mennonites, or is that something that is only figurative, not literal?

What we, as a people, have today are shoes and socks. In Jesus time, they wore sandals, no socks. Servants washed people's dirty feet. Jesus' point was that we are not to put ourselves above menial tasks. I remembered this when my dad's itchy feet needed lotion; when my mom was incontinent.

What do we do today in the stead of washing feet? We serve the needs of the poor through collections.

 

[Meriweather]

I like what you said about respecting practices, and I respect yours, just don't always understand them and don't understand what appears to be an abject fear of not doing them, or of doing them incorrectly.

There is no abject fear. In fact, there is great joy. There is reverence in doing things formally which is not always present when 'any which way' is good enough. (I'm thinking of formal dining or holiday dinners around a well set table as compared to take-out pizza in front of the TV.) Mass and Sacraments are formal moments. Our carnivals, bake sales, etc., less so.

 

[Meriweather]

Now, I will contest that statement, because you apparently have little or no knowledge of what it means to be Amish or a Conservative Conference Mennonite. I would say that those denominations are even more tradition bound than Catholicism, because the traditions extend to everyday life, not just church practices. The Amish are like the Middle Ages Catholic church, in that services are conducted in German, not English, and hymns are sung in German as well. Most Amish do speak Pennsylvania Dutch and have an idea of what's going on, but church services are not conducted in their native tongue. You should study them before saying they are not rich in tradition.

Remember, I am/was speaking specifically of Apostolic traditions.

 

[Meriweather]

Are you saying that you would not go visit a dear Christian friend and go with them to their worship service, then have communion with them (even if they consecrated the communion, knowing you would be there?) without first going to Mass, then refusing communion? I know Mass is very important to you and am not minimizing it in the least. I just do not understand what appears to be an obsession with doing everything the "Catholic" way, to the exclusion of other Christian beliefs.

I am saying Mass times are earlier than church services in their denomination.

 

[Meriweather]

I do not dismiss your perspective, merely note that I grew up in a tradition rich environment where every aspect of everyday life was governed by traditions. My grandfather was nearly excommunicated because he had a radio. Study the Amish and Mennonites before you dismiss other denominations as not having traditions.

Again, I am specifically noting Apostolic traditions, dating back to Christ.

 

[hadit]

What we, as a people, have today are shoes and socks. In Jesus time, they wore sandals, no socks. Servants washed people's dirty feet. Jesus' point was that we are not to put ourselves above menial tasks. I remembered this when my dad's itchy feet needed lotion; when my mom was incontinent.

What do we do today in the stead of washing feet? We serve the needs of the poor through collections.

So, you view Jesus' command as figurative and thus open to re-interpretation, while viewing His, "This is my body" and "This is my blood" as explicitly literal and any other interpretation is wrong?

 

[Meriweather]

So, you view Jesus' command as figurative

No.

 

[hadit]

No.

If you see it as literal, you should be washing each other's feet. Mennonites did when I was growing up, and it was very meaningful.

 

[ding]

Go find some trans kids to preach to

Not my style. I'll leave the preaching to you. I'm sure in your mind you have rationalized your bigotry towards Christians is justified. But the reality is that you have become what you hate. You are no better than the Christians which are bigots. Just a different flavor of bigotry is all.

 

[ding]

What I find staggeringly senseless is when I listed Catholic teachings and practices that Protestants dropped and that I continue to follow, hadit asserts I do this because I feel "superior". This assessment is befuddling--on the order of reasoning that people who major in accounting do so to feel superior to those majoring in journalism. Or, the reason my sister gave up flower/vegetable gardening to start dry gardening arrangements is to feel superior to me who continues struggling with flowers and vegetables! (I'm smitten by what she is creating.)

Also befuddling is that because I don't attend Protestant services it is because I feel "superior". Again, kind of like me attending the journalism classes instead of accounting classes because I feel "superior".

I've come to this conclusion: As I don't feel the least superior, someone must feel inferior. I'm wondering why this is.

There's no winning with them because their minds are closed and they are slaves to their biases.

 

[ding]

Perhaps that's it. It comes across more like someone who deep down knows s/he made the wrong decision, took the wrong way, and then tries too hard to justify and find excuses for that act. I have Puritan and Quaker ancestors. Puritans constructed meeting houses without any adornment, feeling strongly that adornment was distracting to their worship. Quakers don't baptize nor do they have communion or any other sacrament. Their belief is that outward symbols such as water or bread and wine, are unnecessary because these beliefs should be experienced internally only, that the symbols of water or bread and wine are a distraction from inward reflection.

I greatly respect both these practices to the point where I was truly galled when I learned the LDS Church was/is baptizing Quakers posthumously as is their practice.

All good points. I'm not sure what their end game is to be honest. It almost seems that they are arguing that Catholicism is evil and needs to be abolished. I doubt they even know what their end game is or if they do they are afraid of speaking it out loud. Not a lot of difference between them and Hobelim and Breezewood. Maybe it's just that they are hammers looking for nails and have no idea that they are hammers looking for nails.

 

[Meriweather]

If you see it as literal, you should be washing each other's feet. Mennonites did when I was growing up, and it was very meaningful.

What else are you saying I should be doing?

Jesus was having a Passover meal which included lamb, gravy/drippings, bitter herbs, fruit, bread and wine. One person got up and left. They were reclining as they ate the Passover meal.

Besides washing feet, what else would you like me to include? Lamb? Bitter herbs? Appoint someone to leave before the bread and wine? What about the questions that are/were traditionally asked during a Passover meal?

Jesus literally showed we're not to put ourselves above even the most menial of tasks--and this is before they reclined for dinner. He didn't wash feet and then immediately jump up and say, "This is my body...this is my blood..."

 

[hadit]

What else are you saying I should be doing?

Jesus was having a Passover meal which included lamb, gravy/drippings, bitter herbs, fruit, bread and wine. One person got up and left. They were reclining as they ate the Passover meal.

Yes, it was a real meal, not a symbolic tiny piece of bread and a tiny sip of wine. It was enough of a meal that Paul noted some would gorge themselves, leaving little for others and some would drink so much they got drunk. If you're going to latch onto "This is my body" and insist it has to be literally that and nothing else, you should only be celebrating communion during a real Passover meal, not weekly with tiny symbols. IOW, it sounds suspiciously like those traditions were set up to maximize modern utility, not the literal celebration that Jesus was talking about.

Besides washing feet, what else would you like me to include? Lamb? Bitter herbs? Appoint someone to leave before the bread and wine? What about the questions that are/were traditionally asked during a Passover meal?

Jesus literally showed we're not to put ourselves above even the most menial of tasks--and this is before they reclined for dinner. He didn't wash feet and then immediately jump up and say, "This is my body...this is my blood..."

All I'm saying is it's convenient to take one thing He said as literal that must forever be considered such for eternity (to the point of excommunicating people for believing differently) while rewriting another as NOT literal (even though Jesus literally did it and didn't give His literal body and blood to the disciples) to better match up with modern sensibilities.

 

[forkintheroad7]

No one can deny that Christian leaders have taken a larger role in politics over the last several years. Whether that is a good or bad thing covers a wide range of subjects and is not what this thread is about. I just have one question that can be better answered by someone who at least has a working knowledge of the Bible

Prophets in the Bible are generally highly revered. For those that believe in the God of the Bible, receiving direct specific knowledge from God deserves respect. However, even back then, it was known that unscrupulous people might claim God told them something when he didn't. That's why anyone claiming to have a prophecy was held to a high and severe standard. Giving false prophecy that didn't actually occur was grounds for death. Falsely claiming authority of God's knowledge was not tolerated. Obviously, today, we don't kill false prophets, but is there anything in the Bible that says false prophecy should be taken lightly? If a prominent religious leader claims God told him something, and it doesn't happen as claimed, should he maintain his standing in the Christian community?

I don't understand exactly why a non Christian (or that's what you once were anyhow) has an interest in this kind of thing?

In any case, in my view, there are many false prophets: all those who promote the health-wealth-prosperity doctrine, and anyone who attacks the Catholic Church, the One Church Christ founded

(God is not the author of confusion, so we know he wouldn't establish 60,000 "churches" all teaching different things. )

 

[forkintheroad7]

Called them on the phone Dog ???

seriously.....

sing along?......



~S~

Is that your pet pig?

I like little pigs (weird, I guess)

 

[sparky]

Is that your pet pig?

I like little pigs (weird, I guess)

yes, got a good 3 dz right now
give ya's a deal if'n ya come catch one fork
~S~

 

[hadit]

I don't understand exactly why a non Christian (or that's what you once were anyhow) has an interest in this kind of thing?

In any case, in my view, there are many false prophets: all those who promote the health-wealth-prosperity doctrine, and anyone who attacks the Catholic Church, the One Church Christ founded

(God is not the author of confusion, so we know he wouldn't establish 60,000 "churches" all teaching different things. )

They don't, they all teach Jesus is the sacrifice for our sin and to be saved we repent and accept His free gift of salvation, otherwise they are not Christian churches. What do you think is so important about what the leader of the congregation wears or the music style? Here's a hint, they're not.

 

[forkintheroad7]

yes, got a good 3 dz right now
give ya's a deal if'n ya come catch one fork
~S~

LOL. I'd love to chase after one and try to catch one. It would make me feel like a child again.. sigh.

How much do you charge for the baby ones? I don't have a place to put any animals, but just wondering. I always wanted to live on a farm.. well, not always, but after finding out how nuts most cities are. I hate all the traffic and bad drivers.. Anyhow, are u a full time farmer?

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, it was a real meal, not a symbolic tiny piece of bread and a tiny sip of wine. It was enough of a meal that Paul noted some would gorge themselves, leaving little for others and some would drink so much they got drunk. If you're going to latch onto "This is my body" and insist it has to be literally that and nothing else, you should only be celebrating communion during a real Passover meal, not weekly with tiny symbols. IOW, it sounds suspiciously like those traditions were set up to maximize modern utility, not the literal celebration that Jesus was talking about.

Except...Passover is not a Sacrament instituted by Christ. The Eucharist is. Next are you going to suggest we all be baptized in the Jordan River as Christ was...perhaps by someone named John?