Zone1 Christian Wives and Submission

[Eman623]

Yes

Yeah, but really?

 

[SweetSue92]

Yes, as the driver is responsible for the passenger.

So anyone who is responsible is automatically superior? So every time you have flown, the pilot is superior to you?

 

[SweetSue92]

As I read it we submit to each other depending upon our role. Troubles arise when roles are not clearly defined and/or accepted. My role was interfacing with the outside world. My wife's role was running the family. I deferred to her and she deferred to me. When it came to running the family and making those decision she had the ball. I might be her enforcer, but I always had her back even if I disagreed with her decision. Likewise when dealing with the outside world she had my back even if she didn't agree. That's not to say we both didn't try to influence the other's decisions because we did. If I thought she was being too hard or too soft, I'd provide council and she would do the same for me. But in the end we both respected each other's role and authority to make decisions over our respective domains. In other words it is a partnership but there were areas where we both led and followed.

This is a very good summation. Good 'bosses' do this. Imagine a husband hovering over his wife preparing a meal, for example, if he knows squat about cooking. That's absurd, and he's being a bad 'boss'. Let her cook (literally and figuratively)!

 

[1srelluc]

So anyone who is responsible is automatically superior? So every time you have flown, the pilot is superior to you?

Yep, he's the captain at that particular time, once I'm back on the ground we are equals.

 

[SweetSue92]

My marriage is not a car. If anything, it's a pair of bicycles.

We ride together to get to the same mutually agreed on destination.

Great, so each is essentially completely on their own.

 

[SweetSue92]

Yep, he's the captain at that particular time, once I'm back on the ground we are equals.

So right, he has a role. He's not innately superior to you.

 

[Godboy]

Is this whole hierarchy thing really necessary?

I'd prefer to have an equal partner over someone who has to "submit" to me.

Not all partners are equal. Sometimes you have a dumb wife or a dumb husband. In those cases, the smart one needs to be in charge. Im not fond of the word "submit". It holds a massively negative connotation that doesnt really fit in the vast majority of these lopsided relationships.

 

[1srelluc]

So right, he has a role. He's not innately superior to you.

Jeez, you really have to have that explained to you?

 

[SweetSue92]

Not all partners are equal. Sometimes you have a dumb wife or a dumb husband. In those cases, the smart one needs to be in charge. Im not fond of the word "submit". It holds a massively negative connotation that doesnt really fit in the vast majority of these lopsided relationships.

I agree that "submit" is heavily loaded now. Note that the verses say "respect" for a woman, and it's all in the context of understanding the structures of organization. Hopefully, if you work, your boss is worthy of respect. If not, that's on him.

 

[SweetSue92]

Jeez, you really have to have that explained to you?

No, this is the point of the thread. In our marriage my husband is the driver. But the driver is not innately superior. And yes, the ride ends....in Heaven. So same-same.

 

[1srelluc]

No, this is the point of the thread. In our marriage my husband is the driver. But the driver is not innately superior. And yes, the ride ends....in Heaven. So same-same.

Have fun playing your harps together.....Me, I live in the real world where sweet oblivion awaits my passing.

 

[Votto]

This topic triggers all kinds of people, doesn't it.



I suppose it is because of a combination of people abusing this scripture for their own purposes as well as people misunderstanding it.

But at the end of the day, marriage was originally a contract between God, the wife, and the man, assuming both the wife and man were both serving God and looking to his wisdom and instruction and not focused on their own selfish desires.

Then the state came in and took over at which point that contract became secularized and bastardized because now half or more marriages end in divorce due to the fact the wife and husband more often than not get married without putting God at the head of that marriage and subsequent submission to him alone. Trying to join the will of both parties is tuff is all and without God, you might even argue impossible.

 

[0311]

Doesn't really what you disagree with SS, no god. Never has been and never will be. And reading of your very racist post, you version of your god is one hateful Son of a *****.

 

[1srelluc]

I've been married for 49 years to the same woman and I can't say "god" was ever at the head of our marriage.....It's all in what you make of things.

 

[Meriweather]

Let's talk about marital submission of Christian wives, a hot button topic .

Etymology: Aramaic form of the word is to serve.

We can also take a look at Proverbs 31--

POEM ON THE WOMAN OF WORTH

Who can find a woman of worth?
Far beyond jewels is her value.
Her husband trusts her judgment;
he does not lack income.

She brings him profit, not loss,
all the days of her life.
She seeks out wool and flax
and weaves with skillful hands.

Like a merchant fleet,
she secures her provisions from afar.
She rises while it is still night,
and distributes food to her household,
a portion to her maidservants.

She picks out a field and acquires it;
from her earnings she plants a vineyard.
She girds herself with strength;
she exerts her arms with vigor.

She enjoys the profit from her dealings;
her lamp is never extinguished at night.
She puts her hands to the distaff,
and her fingers ply the spindle.

She reaches out her hands to the poor,
and extends her arms to the needy.
She is not concerned for her household when it snows—
all her charges are doubly clothed.

She makes her own coverlets;
fine linen and purple are her clothing.
Her husband is prominent at the city gates
as he sits with the elders of the land.

She makes garments and sells them,
and stocks the merchants with belts.
She is clothed with strength and dignity,
and laughs at the days to come.

She opens her mouth in wisdom;
kindly instruction is on her tongue.
She watches over the affairs of her household,
and does not eat the bread of idleness.

Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband, too, praises her:
“Many are the women of proven worth,
but you have excelled them all.”

Charm is deceptive and beauty fleeting;
the woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
Acclaim her for the work of her hands,
and let her deeds praise her at the city gates.

 

[Votto]

Doesn't really what you disagree with SS, no god. Never has been and never will be. And reading of your very racist post, you version of your god is one hateful Son of a *****.

Actually, if you look at statistics regarding divorce, you will see that divorce among those of faith and those not of faith are about the same. However, if you break that down and ask if the couple regularly attends church together, the rates of divorce actually go down by about half.

That is the dirty little secret. If God is the focus, the marriage is more likely to succeed.

 

[Andylusion]

Let's talk about marital submission of Christian wives, a hot button topic .This passage from Ephesians is pertinent, followed by a verse in 1 Peter. Please keep reading after the verses for commentary:

Ephesians 22-25

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. So as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her...."

And then in Ephesians 22:33

"However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband."

1 Peter 3:7

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

A Christian wife's job is to respect the husband as yes, boss. A GOOD boss doesn't 'boss' you around because he can. The best bosses realize your value and want to optimize it. Moreover, the best bosses trust you to do your job and seek to help you do it to the best of your ability.

A Christian husband's role is to love his wife so much he would lay down his life for her, as Christ loved the church. How seriously does God take a husband's job? Well, if he's not living with his wife in understanding, God won't even hear his prayers. And this is for believers!

To wrap up, a Christian wife doesn't have to stay home, have babies, bake sourdough, grow her hair long, wear only skirts, have no opinions, refrain from voting or participating in the community, or any other thing because she is submitted. She and her husband, seeking Biblical wisdom, gets to decide how he feels respected and she feels loved.

Questions welcome!

No I agree with all that.

As for your last comment, I would suggest that while all of those things are extreme useful and important.... the Bible also shows that a good wife is a Capitalist.

Proverbs 31.

Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.

She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.

She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.

She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.

She gets up while it is still night;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her female servants.

She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.

She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.

In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.

She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.

When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.

She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.

So in this passage, the desirable woman, works with hands when needed, engages in trade, acts like a merchant ship and is profitable. She considers things to do like buying a field after thinking it over, and planting a vineyard. She is caring towards the poor, prepares food for her family, and even her servants if she has any. She makes the family a home.

Interestingly, she's a Capitalist. Another example that Capitalist is everywhere in the Bible.

And honestly, that is amazingly attractive to a guy. I've seen this first hand, when I met a family, where the wife lived this out, and it was first time in my life I thought to myself that if this is what marriage is, and what having a wife is, then I would like that.

 

[theHawk]

Let's talk about marital submission of Christian wives, a hot button topic .This passage from Ephesians is pertinent, followed by a verse in 1 Peter. Please keep reading after the verses for commentary:

Ephesians 22-25

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. So as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her...."

And then in Ephesians 22:33

"However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband."

1 Peter 3:7

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

A Christian wife's job is to respect the husband as yes, boss. A GOOD boss doesn't 'boss' you around because he can. The best bosses realize your value and want to optimize it. Moreover, the best bosses trust you to do your job and seek to help you do it to the best of your ability.

A Christian husband's role is to love his wife so much he would lay down his life for her, as Christ loved the church. How seriously does God take a husband's job? Well, if he's not living with his wife in understanding, God won't even hear his prayers. And this is for believers!

To wrap up, a Christian wife doesn't have to stay home, have babies, bake sourdough, grow her hair long, wear only skirts, have no opinions, refrain from voting or participating in the community, or any other thing because she is submitted. She and her husband, seeking Biblical wisdom, gets to decide how he feels respected and she feels loved.

Questions welcome!

The important thing is, she can’t be a feminist.

 

[BreezeWood]

A GOOD boss doesn't 'boss' you around because he can.

there is no boss in the heavens, all are equal -

simply another 4th century bias written by the same who crucified jesus who taught liberation theology, self determination as a good example for their, christianities refusal to embrace change for the better vs their backward and stubborn ways.

 

[Andylusion]

So what happens when you disagree over a decision?

Great question.

What happens when there are disagreements at the white house over a political or military issue?

What happens when there are disagreements at a business over a decision?

What happens when there are disagreements at a sporting event over an action or play?

What happens in any organization when there are disagreements?

Someone.... has to make the final decision.

The President makes the final call after hearing all sides.
The CEO makes the final call after hearing all sides.
The Umpire or Referee makes the final call after hearing all sides.
Whoever leads the organization, has to make the final call.

And that's absolutely 100% required. Has to happen. If you don't have a leader of the group, the group will in-fight until they destroy everything.

And we've seen this in big companies, that have a weak CEO that doesn't have the respect of the rest of company. The in-fighting will absolutely destroy everything.

Now the military, you MUST follow the chain of command or you will get yourself shot, or court-martialed, or something else.

But that is not the Christian way. Other religious system try and force adherence to their beliefs. But that is not what Christianity teaches. We do not believe in forced conversion, by the sword... submit or die.... Nor do we believe in forcing women to submit to their husbands. That's not in the Bible.

Instead, it is a choice. A Christian woman should voluntarily choose to submit herself to her husbands leading of the family. That doesn't mean she does nothing either. You can still be a powerful influence in your husbands life and children's lives, without being bossy and rude and deeming, and disrespectful.

One example I use from the Bible is Abigail and David.

The story is listed out in 1st Samuel chapter 25. I won't copy the whole thing here, but here's the short version. A very wealthy man named Maon is married to Abigail, has a huge flocks of sheep and animals. His flocks are out in the pasture, where David and his band of men are, out in the country side, and David and his men agree to keep watch over all of Maon's flocks and herdsman, and he commands his men to protect them and not take anything.

After some time, Maon takes his flocks to have them sheered, and David sends a messenger to ask for any thing he could spare. Some food for his troops of men, or anything he might offer for keeping his flocks safe and guarding his servants.

The man ridicules and mocks David, and says basically 'thanks for the help, now get lost.'. So when David hears this, he tells his troops to armor up, and march on Maon.

Abigail hears of this. Now what could she have done? She could have gone to her husband

"You are one dumb SOB! You are such a loser, and you are going to get yourself killed! What idiot tells the next king of the country, which all his fighting men to go suck it?"

She could have have done that. Or any number of things. But she didn't. She saddled up to ride fast. Loaded up bread and wine and whatever she could carry, and rode to meet David, and offered him everything she could, to ask forgiveness for her husband.

And then when she got back, her husband was having a party. Did she waltz into the party and tell her husband in front of everyone, that David was coming to punish him? No. She waited until the next day, and told him after everyone was gone.

That is what Christianity teaches. And you men, put yourself in that place. Tell me that isn't the kind of woman you would want? The kind that respects you, even when you screw up... and we all screw up. The kind that talks with a soft voice, not bitter and biting. That one that keeps your mistakes private, even when they are bad mistakes.

(now just to clarify I'm not talking about going off and committed murder or adultery. If that happens, you need to tell everyone)

But again... Christianity teaches to CHOOSE to be that kind of woman. That's not a command for husbands to beat their wives into being that kind of woman. No. It's their choices. They should make that choice. But it is still the choices of the wife to be that way.

It is the choice of the woman to be that virtuous.