Zone1 Beauty Culture and Works-Based Religions: Mormons and Amish

[SweetSue92]

So, in your world, people don' have to accept Christ into their lives.

You are of the "blood bought" crowd?

What?

Yes, they do. If God elected them, they WILL accept Christ. Everyone who accepts Christ was elected by God to do so.

Every other belief in the matter puts the human choice above God's, which is in contradiction to everything we know about God.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Dude you're awful pressed about me not believing the things Joseph Smith believes. Why is that?

I am awful pressed that you are misrepresenting my church's doctrine.

Just who are you to sit in judgement of another's doctrine?

 

[HikerGuy83]

Yes, they do. If God elected them, they WILL accept Christ. Everyone who accepts Christ was elected by God to do so.

What a total copout.

 

[SweetSue92]

You mean by giving people rules?

You keep hammering away at this when I have already stated that rules are not the problem. It's thinking that FOLLOWING THE RULES makes you somehow more acceptable to God. It doesn't. It never could. Every good work we can possibly do is a "filthy rag" because we are fallen.

 

[SweetSue92]

I am awful pressed that you are misrepresenting my church's doctrine.

Just who are you to sit in judgement of another's doctrine?

"The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one" (ESV)--1 Cor 2:15

The spiritual person, judging with the Holy Spirit, is absolutely able and in fact equipped to "judge all things"....namely, all things spiritual.

 

[SweetSue92]

What a total copout.

Yes, well Joseph Smith thought so, and then he went on to control a bunch of people and marry how many wives? How many were teenagers?

 

[HikerGuy83]

Yes, well Joseph Smith thought so, and then he went on to control a bunch of people and marry how many wives? How many were teenagers?

Nothing spiritual here to judge...right?

Seeing how you think you are so "equipped".

Besides it does not matter. He was predestined, like you think you are, to heaven.

 

[HikerGuy83]

"The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one" (ESV)--1 Cor 2:15

The spiritual person, judging with the Holy Spirit, is absolutely able and in fact equipped to "judge all things"....namely, all things spiritual.

People with the Holy Spirit don't behave like you do.

Even I can judge that.

 

[HikerGuy83]

You keep hammering away at this when I have already stated that rules are not the problem. It's thinking that FOLLOWING THE RULES makes you somehow more acceptable to God. It doesn't. It never could. Every good work we can possibly do is a "filthy rag" because we are fallen.

No, this last round was you screaming that rules were a mark of works based faith.

Now they are not a problem.

Being acceptable to God is a foggy term.

What works can't do is take away your sin.

That happens through Christ.

He then asks us to repent (i.e. behave...you know, works...).

 

[HikerGuy83]

If God elected them

Do you get a card when that happens?

Or maybe a certificate you can hang on the wall?

 

[HikerGuy83]

5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Our Amish leaders are serving prison sentences. We had a sheriff that just hated the leader of the group, but had no reason to go after him. When several of the Amish broke off and moved nearby, the Amish leaders here, according to their beliefs, went to the offshoots and cut their hair and shaved off their beards against their will. And the sheriff nailed them. Some were allowed out of prison to bring in their harvests, then had to go back...

 

[SweetSue92]

People with the Holy Spirit don't behave like you do.

Even I can judge that.

I'm not behaving any type of way except not accepting your faith as Christian. This seems to really upset you, but I'm not being at all mean. I am being truthful.

 

[Meriweather]

You keep hammering away at this when I have already stated that rules are not the problem. It's thinking that FOLLOWING THE RULES makes you somehow more acceptable to God. It doesn't. It never could. Every good work we can possibly do is a "filthy rag" because we are fallen.

I believe the "filthy rag" is misconstrued. Isaiah seems to be referring to what men call "good" is to God a filthy rag. A great example of this, in my opinion, is abortion being good and right as it is a woman's choice. Meanwhile, the Bible notes several times that we are to look after orphans, the fatherless, and widows. We are to learn to do what is right, seek justice, and defend the oppressed. We are to love the foreigner and the poor, giving them food and clothing.

However, we should not take pride in doing this, as we are only worthless servants doing as we ought. I find that no matter how much I give, I could have given more. I love that verse, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief." Belief doesn't pertain to me, as I know, but change the word "belief" to almost any other and it fits me to a T. "Lord, I give (sometimes); help my non-giving. Lord, I love, help my not loving. Lord, I am patience, help my impatience. Lord, I am sincere, help my insincerity." And so on. I'll bet I could go through every adjective in the dictionary and find I am lacking in all of them.

Another point you addressed is that we are called to be perfect as God is perfect, which is impossible for us. The Hebrew etymology of 'perfect' is best translated "complete". People might shrug at "perfect" thinking that "perfect" is impossible and therefore is silly to strive for. However, "incomplete" is within our reach. We can work to become more complete in our generosity, patience, sincerity, etc." Working towards completeness is not working for salvation/redemption/heaven. Salvation and redemption are God's gift to us, no matter how incomplete we are. Working towards our own completeness is our gift to God.

 

[ding]

You keep hammering away at this when I have already stated that rules are not the problem. It's thinking that FOLLOWING THE RULES makes you somehow more acceptable to God. It doesn't. It never could. Every good work we can possibly do is a "filthy rag" because we are fallen.

The phrase "faith without works is dead" comes from the writings of James (James 2:26). James argued that if someone claims to have faith but does nothing to help a brother or sister in need, their faith is useless and inactive.

While Jesus did not use this exact phrasing, His teachings in the Gospels heavily emphasized that true faith must naturally produce good actions. Jesus taught that a person's faith is known by its actions, just as a tree is known by its fruit. He stated, "every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit" (Matthew 7:17). Jesus summarized the greatest commandments as loving God and loving your neighbor. He made it clear that helping those in need (the hungry, the naked, and the imprisoned) is the true mark of a follower. In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, He indicated that those who actively serve others are the ones who truly know Him (Matthew 25:31-46). In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus warned that merely calling Him "Lord" is not enough. He said that anyone who hears His words and does them is like a wise man building on a solid rock, while those who only hear but don't act are building on sinking sand (Matthew 7:24-27).

Across Christian theology, there is a consensus that this does not mean good deeds earn your redemption (which is a free gift). Instead, good works are seen as the natural, necessary evidence of a living and genuine faith.

 

[SweetSue92]

I believe the "filthy rag" is misconstrued. Isaiah seems to be referring to what men call "good" is to God a filthy rag. A great example of this, in my opinion, is abortion being good and right as it is a woman's choice. Meanwhile, the Bible notes several times that we are to look after orphans, the fatherless, and widows. We are to learn to do what is right, seek justice, and defend the oppressed. We are to love the foreigner and the poor, giving them food and clothing.

However, we should not take pride in doing this, as we are only worthless servants doing as we ought. I find that no matter how much I give, I could have given more. I love that verse, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief." Belief doesn't pertain to me, as I know, but change the word "belief" to almost any other and it fits me to a T. "Lord, I give (sometimes); help my non-giving. Lord, I love, help my not loving. Lord, I am patience, help my impatience. Lord, I am sincere, help my insincerity." And so on. I'll bet I could go through every adjective in the dictionary and find I am lacking in all of them.

Another point you addressed is that we are called to be perfect as God is perfect, which is impossible for us. The Hebrew etymology of 'perfect' is best translated "complete". People might shrug at "perfect" thinking that "perfect" is impossible and therefore is silly to strive for. However, "incomplete" is within our reach. We can work to become more complete in our generosity, patience, sincerity, etc." Working towards completeness is not working for salvation/redemption/heaven. Salvation and redemption are God's gift to us, no matter how incomplete we are. Working towards our own completeness is our gift to God.

This is so well-stated and I love "God help me in my....". Thank you!

 

[SweetSue92]

The phrase "faith without works is dead" comes from the writings of James (James 2:26). James argued that if someone claims to have faith but does nothing to help a brother or sister in need, their faith is useless and inactive.

While Jesus did not use this exact phrasing, His teachings in the Gospels heavily emphasized that true faith must naturally produce good actions. Jesus taught that a person's faith is known by its actions, just as a tree is known by its fruit. He stated, "every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit" (Matthew 7:17). Jesus summarized the greatest commandments as loving God and loving your neighbor. He made it clear that helping those in need (the hungry, the naked, and the imprisoned) is the true mark of a follower. In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, He indicated that those who actively serve others are the ones who truly know Him (Matthew 25:31-46). In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus warned that merely calling Him "Lord" is not enough. He said that anyone who hears His words and does them is like a wise man building on a solid rock, while those who only hear but don't act are building on sinking sand (Matthew 7:24-27).

Across Christian theology, there is a consensus that this does not mean good deeds earn your redemption (which is a free gift). Instead, good works are seen as the natural, necessary evidence of a living and genuine faith.

Yes, all of this. Without Him, we don't lean into this naturally. But with Him, we become better at it over time.