Zone1 Christian or allegedly Christian religions that disbelieve in eternal punishment (Hell)

[BS Filter]

Do you believe once you are saved, you can never lose your salvation? Weird that I can't find any of that in my Bible.

How about having a personal relationship with Jesus? Weird that I can't find any of that in my Bible

I don't know. All I know is my relationship with Jesus. Of course you can't find a personal relationship with Jesus in your Bible. You don't know your Bible. Duh!.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I don't know. All I know is my relationship with Jesus. Of course you can't find a personal relationship with Jesus in your Bible. You don't know your Bible. Duh!.

well, since all you want to do is put down Catholics and act like they don't know anything about Jesus and since you apparently even LIE (I mean, I did tell you that I read the entire Bible and now you ACCUSE me of not knowing it)

then I don't see the point of us having a conversation... so called

 

[BS Filter]

well, since all you want to do is put down Catholics and act like they don't know anything about Jesus and since you apparently even LIE (I mean, I did tell you that I read the entire Bible and now you ACCUSE me of not knowing it)

then I don't see the point of us having a conversation... so called

I'm not putting down Catholics. I'm stating facts. The devil quoted Scripture to Jesus, so he obviously read the Scriptures, huh. What you practice in your religion is your business. However, many of your rites and doctrines aren't Biblical. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you pray with rosary beads? Perhaps burn some incense and sprinkle some holy water and plead to Mary? Weird that I can't find any of that in my Bible as a practice for Christians.

Look harder and it is easy to find what Catholics are incorporating/practicing in their prayer life. Biblical inspiration is quite wonderful.

 

[ThisIsMe]

There's a teeny tiny difference.

Man is not dog.

You knew that, right? Man has a soul, can reason (although liberals make you wonder about that). They are made in God's image (though liberals make you wonder...), but do not want to retain that image (by avoiding mortal sin) because that would not be "fun." Man wants to do what he wants... even after seeing all the misery his lawless actions cause to self and others... Jesus came and showed the way and died a hideous, painful death on the Cross so that we could be saved from the wrath of God against all sin and actually get into Heaven, where there is absolutely NO sin or the desire for sin.

But some hate Jesus and commit the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (meaning, they know Jesus is who He says He is but reject Him and Heaven both)

The Word says that God's eyes are too pure to look upon sin. So Jesus looked upon it --sin--and suffered because of it and gave His life to save us from it, and from its eternal consequences. There can not be any sin allowed into Heaven so sin has to go. problem is, most people do not want it to go...

so as Jesus said "there are few who find [the Narrow Way]" - (Mt 7?)

Man is not dog.

I understand that. My point was, if a man can have enough compassion for a dog as to not want it to suffer, but would rather just end it's life, wouldn't God be even more compassionate for us?


The whole premise of my post was that, the idea of an eternal, never ending torment in fire, where you are burning and feel that kind of pain, for an eternity, just doesn't make any sense. Again, an eternity of torment..for 80.years of sin? I'm sorry, but I can't see that. The more just and merciful punishment would be to just destroy the sinner, utterly, which means their existence is eliminated.

There are some who argue that the Bible doesn't teach eternal torment. That when it says "the second death", and "destruction", it means exactly that. You are destroyed, dead, both body and spirit. The idea of "smoke of their torment rising forever" referring to the pit of hell, that will burn forever, so the smoke would rise forever, but it doesn't teach that humans will suffer for eternity. There are also those who believe Satan and his demons will suffer forever, but not people.

I'm not sure about those things, but I think I had heard something to that effect.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I'm not putting down Catholics. I'm stating facts. The devil quoted Scripture to Jesus, so he obviously read the Scriptures, huh. What you practice in your religion is your business. However, many of your rites and doctrines aren't Biblical. That's all I'm saying.

The Church has never claimed that everything they do and teach is explicitly or even implicitly in the Bible. However, a lot of the rituals and other practices began in the Jewish faith. They were retained in the Catholic faith and there were reasons for it. It would take all day to explain even what I myself know about this, much less all there is to know about it.

One thing is that in the Jewish synagogue there was always a light burning to signify the Presence of God who was always there. Jesus, through the Catholic priest consecrates the bread and it becomes His Body, which is kept in a tabernacle in the Church and there is a light on at all times to signify that Christ's Presence is there (in the consecrated Hosts--Transubstantiation). I don't know if the Real Presence is still there in ALL the novus ordo 'churches' anymore... but I doubt Jesus has left every single Catholic Church just because of Vatican II and its heretical detritus.. In fact, I went to a Church recently that had the Presence (tangibly felt). Jesus promised to be w/ us until the End (Mt 28:20). I went to one recently that did not seem to have the Presence and that worried me ... (I don't know what that's all about)...

 

[notmyfault2020]

I understand that. My point was, if a man can have enough compassion for a dog as to not want it to suffer, but would rather just end it's life, wouldn't God be even more compassionate for us?


The whole premise of my post was that, the idea of an eternal, never ending torment in fire, where you are burning and feel that kind of pain, for an eternity, just doesn't make any sense. Again, an eternity of torment..for 80.years of sin? I

I can u/stand this and used to think the same way. But in Isaiah 55 it says.. God says: Your ways are not My ways; your thoughts are not My thoughts.

And as stated b4.. I no longer have the LEAST problem believing in eternal hell/misery. It would take a LONG time for me to explain how I came to totally reject.. well, wht u say here and what I used to believe. But I know Hell is eternal and miserable.. The Virgin Mary appeared at Fatima and told the young children about Hell and that they should pray for sinners so they won't go there. Then in .. I think it was a different apparition she said something about how, as awful as Hell is, souls "get used to it" I am not sure that apparition has been approved by the Church but Fatima definitely was.. Fatima was in 1917 before the heretical Council where evil doers took over the Church (60s)

 

[BS Filter]

The Church has never claimed that everything they do and teach is explicitly or even implicitly in the Bible. However, a lot of the rituals and other practices began in the Jewish faith. They were retained in the Catholic faith and there were reasons for it. It would take all day to explain even what I myself know about this, much less all there is to know about it.

One thing is that in the Jewish synagogue there was always a light burning to signify the Presence of God who was always there. Jesus, through the Catholic priest consecrates the bread and it becomes His Body, which is kept in a tabernacle in the Church and there is a light on at all times to signify that Christ's Presence is there (in the consecrated Hosts--Transubstantiation). I don't know if the Real Presence is still there in ALL the novus ordo 'churches' anymore... but I doubt Jesus has left every single Catholic Church just because of Vatican II and its heretical detritus.. In fact, I went to a Church recently that had the Presence (tangibly felt). Jesus promised to be w/ us until the End (Mt 28:20). I went to one recently that did not seem to have the Presence and that worried me ... (I don't know what that's all about)...

Well, now you're coming around. Yes, some Jewish rites and customs were incorporated into Catholicism. My point is still this, all I need to be saved is faith in Jesus, period. That was difficult for the Catholic church when Luther declared that and still is. Peace out.

 

[ThisIsMe]

I can u/stand this and used to think the same way. But in Isaiah 55 it says.. God says: Your ways are not My ways; your thoughts are not My thoughts.

And as stated b4.. I no longer have the LEAST problem believing in eternal hell/misery. It would take a LONG time for me to explain how I came to totally reject.. well, wht u say here and what I used to believe. But I know Hell is eternal and miserable.. The Virgin Mary appeared at Fatima and told the young children about Hell and that they should pray for sinners so they won't go there. Then in .. I think it was a different apparition she said something about how, as awful as Hell is, souls "get used to it" I am not sure that apparition has been approved by the Church but Fatima definitely was.. Fatima was in 1917 before the heretical Council where evil doers took over the Church (60s)

That's fine, I'm not trying to argue you into compromising your beliefs,.I'm just stating my point, and that is, I have a hard time with an eternal punishment for such a short time, considering that some people may have never heard the Gospel, and those who have may have never fully known the truth, but because they didn't accept what what was taught them based on faith alone, they are now facing eternal hell. I'm sorry, that just doesn't sound like justice.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Well, now you're coming around. Yes, some Jewish rites and customs were incorporated into Catholicism. My point is still this, all I need to be saved is faith in Jesus, period. That was difficult for the Catholic church when Luther declared that and still is. Peace out.

If that were true, why did Jesus say... and presumably you care what He said when it is written down in the bible.. though not all He said and did WAS written down.. but why did Jesus say "I will build My CHURCH [emphasis added] and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it"?

why would He bother w/ a Church if all we needed was our faith in Him and the Bible? But wait... it's worse than that... The Bible as we know it did not exist until the printing press was invented in 1440. The manuscripts that existed before then had to be chained to the Church podium so they wouldn't be stolen, they were so rare and hard to come by. And the Gospels weren't even written down until some 50-70 years after Christ ascended.. So according to many protestants, there was no Church until... what... 1440? 1520 when Luther broke away and was excommunicated from the Catholic Church? Btw, even protestants, esp Lutherans, "follow a Catholic" because that's what Luther was.. a Catholic priest... and a very disobedient, rebellious, lawless.. one at that. But anyhow... Christ did establish a Church and its right there in black and white in Mt 16:18.

Why would He bother if all we needed was a "personal relationship with" Him... something NOT mentioned in Scripture..

 

[notmyfault2020]

That's fine, I'm not trying to argue you into compromising your beliefs,.I'm just stating my point, and that is, I have a hard time with an eternal punishment for such a short time, considering that some people may have never heard the Gospel, and those who have may have never fully known the truth, but because they didn't accept what what was taught them based on faith alone, they are now facing eternal hell. I'm sorry, that just doesn't sound like justice.

Do you think God is not big enough to handle those injustices? I have had the exact same thought. But after someone dies, God can put that soul anywhere... Heaven, Hell, Purgatory..

Purgatory is where poeple learn to be more what they need to be in order to enter heaven which is totally holy and without sin. So yeh, I've heard even non-Catholics say that Purgatory makes a lot of sense. A place of purging is also mentioned in the Old T and there are allusions to it in the New T

 

[BS Filter]

If that were true, why did Jesus say... and presumably you care what He said when it is written down in the bible.. though not all He said and did WAS written down.. but why did Jesus say "I will build My CHURCH [emphasis added] and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it"?

why would He bother w/ a Church if all we needed was our faith in Him and the Bible? But wait... it's worse than that... The Bible as we know it did not exist until the printing press was invented in 1440. The manuscripts that existed before then had to be chained to the Church podium so they wouldn't be stolen, they were so rare and hard to come by. And the Gospels weren't even written down until some 50-70 years after Christ ascended.. So according to many protestants, there was no Church until... what... 1440? 1520 when Luther broke away and was excommunicated from the Catholic Church? Btw, even protestants, esp Lutherans, "follow a Catholic" because that's what Luther was.. a Catholic priest... and a very disobedient, rebellious, lawless.. one at that. But anyhow... Christ did establish a Church and its right there in black and white in Mt 16:18.

Why would He bother if all we needed was a "personal relationship with" Him... something NOT mentioned in Scripture..

When you and I read that verse we understand it differently. You believe the Catholic church is what he's referring to only. I believe it means every individual who has faith in Jesus.

 

[notmyfault2020]

You believe the Catholic church is what he's referring to only. I believe it means every individual who has faith in Jesus.

You don't know what I believe.

But here is more info on what I believe: I believe BOTH

 

[BS Filter]

You don't know what I believe.

But here is more info on what I believe: I believe BOTH

Do you believe the Catholic denomination is the only true Christian church?

 

[notmyfault2020]

Do you believe the Catholic denomination is the only true Christian church?

The Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is the Church Christ founded... and again. . I am NOT.. totally NOT referring to the Vatican sect that highjacked the Vatican in the 60s, but few Catholics know about that.. glad I am one who does (finally!)

So your definition of Catholic and mine are going to be 2 different things. To understand the difference btw the V2 Sect and the REAL Catholic Church.. you can read my threads on the topic.. and/or go to .. well, Novus Ordo Watch is ... I don't know.. I just don't think that's the best place for a non-Catholic to begin learning about Catholicism! There are many reasons why I say that... but I would steer clear of most "Catholic" sites.

And if anyone reading this thinks i LIKE being on the outs with most Catholics and the Vatican itself... think again! I would love nothing better than for all Catholics to be united... and all Christians period.

 

[BS Filter]

The Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is the Church Christ founded... and again. . I am NOT.. totally NOT referring to the Vatican sect that highjacked the Vatican in the 60s, but few Catholics know about that.. glad I am one who does (finally!)

So your definition of Catholic and mine are going to be 2 different things. To understand the difference btw the V2 Sect and the REAL Catholic Church.. you can read my threads on the topic.. and/or go to .. well, Novus Ordo Watch is ... I don't know.. I just don't think that's the best place for a non-Catholic to begin learning about Catholicism! There are many reasons why I say that... but I would steer clear of most "Catholic" sites.

And if anyone reading this thinks i LIKE being on the outs with most Catholics and the Vatican itself... think again! I would love nothing better than for all Catholics to be united... and all Christians period.

I also would like all Christians to be united. However, you cling to the idea that the Catholic church is somehow a separate entity from protestants. Once again, the Bible doesn't distinguish an earthly organization as "the church". The church is each individual believer, the body of Christ. Do you understand what I'm saying?

 

[notmyfault2020]

I also would like all Christians to be united. However, you cling to the idea that the Catholic church is somehow a separate entity from protestants. Once again, the Bible doesn't distinguish an earthly organization as "the church". The church is each individual believer, the body of Christ. Do you understand what I'm saying?

just bc I don't agree doesn't mean I dont get what you're saying

you are protestantized, so I have to take that into consideration when I am answering you, although I can't say I really know how to best do that... I myself am Catholicized.. which I guess, accidentally answers your question? The 2 are very different.

First of all, I am very tired of protestants telling me what I believe! And of course it is always based on some pastor of theirs telling them what Catholics believe and always getting that WRONG as hell. (Can you spell hearsay?)

So I always feel like I am trying to teach 3rd graders rocket science or something.. Yes, I am sure you have felt the same way vis a vis Catholics.. but in any case, you bring up the Bible and claim that it doesn't distinguish an earthly organization as "the church." I'm not sure what your terms mean exactly but..

The Church will never be united if it is what you claim it is. You say here that the church is "each individual believer"... which is what most protestants say. But again there will never be unity if that is true. Think about it.. Each person believes differently.. that's why there are 60,000 or more different protestant "churches." Is that unity?

But wait... didn't Jesus establish ONE Church? (Mt 16:18 says CHURCH, not ChurchES--plural)

Well... I have to wait for you to answer that one b4 I go on...

 

[BS Filter]

just bc I don't agree doesn't mean I dont get what you're saying

you are protestantized, so I have to take that into consideration when I am answering you, although I can't say I really know how to best do that... I myself am Catholicized.. which I guess, accidentally answers your question? The 2 are very different.

First of all, I am very tired of protestants telling me what I believe! And of course it is always based on some pastor of theirs telling them what Catholics believe and always getting that WRONG as hell. (Can you spell hearsay?)

So I always feel like I am trying to teach 3rd graders rocket science or something.. Yes, I am sure you have felt the same way vis a vis Catholics.. but in any case, you bring up the Bible and claim that it doesn't distinguish an earthly organization as "the church." I'm not sure what your terms mean exactly but..

The Church will never be united if it is what you claim it is. You say here that the church is "each individual believer"... which is what most protestants say. But again there will never be unity if that is true. Think about it.. Each person believes differently.. that's why there are 60,000 or more different protestant "churches." Is that unity?

But wait... didn't Jesus establish ONE Church? (Mt 16:18 says CHURCH, not ChurchES--plural)

Well... I have to wait for you to answer that one b4 I go on...

Here's the difference. I use Scripture as my final authority. You use Catholicism.

 

[LibertyKid]

That's fine, I'm not trying to argue you into compromising your beliefs,.I'm just stating my point, and that is, I have a hard time with an eternal punishment for such a short time, considering that some people may have never heard the Gospel, and those who have may have never fully known the truth, but because they didn't accept what what was taught them based on faith alone, they are now facing eternal hell. I'm sorry, that just doesn't sound like justice.

Has anyone read my post and the link to Greg Boyd's thoughts?

• #95

Oh, and before you completely discredit Boyd because he may theologically disagree on hell, he actually gives credence to the thought on purgatory, however it's not the traditional Catholic view.

 

[LibertyKid]

If that were true, why did Jesus say... and presumably you care what He said when it is written down in the bible.. though not all He said and did WAS written down.. but why did Jesus say "I will build My CHURCH [emphasis added] and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it"?

why would He bother w/ a Church if all we needed was our faith in Him and the Bible? But wait... it's worse than that... The Bible as we know it did not exist until the printing press was invented in 1440. The manuscripts that existed before then had to be chained to the Church podium so they wouldn't be stolen, they were so rare and hard to come by. And the Gospels weren't even written down until some 50-70 years after Christ ascended.. So according to many protestants, there was no Church until... what... 1440? 1520 when Luther broke away and was excommunicated from the Catholic Church? Btw, even protestants, esp Lutherans, "follow a Catholic" because that's what Luther was.. a Catholic priest... and a very disobedient, rebellious, lawless.. one at that. But anyhow... Christ did establish a Church and its right there in black and white in Mt 16:18.

Why would He bother if all we needed was a "personal relationship with" Him... something NOT mentioned in Scripture..

This is a very high level and not entirely accurate.
The catholic church had ALL the say as to what was considered canon. Shortly after the life of Christ, the need to write the gospels downs from oral traditions was needed. Then you have early Christians who comprised their own texts in an attempt to document Christ but also his nature with God. This caused many sects to begin to branch out because of theological differences. Within the first two centuries, many writings existed and were being circulated. For over a thousand years, scholars and theologians have debated what should be considered "Canon". And during much of this period the RCC had the monopoly over scripture. The RCC was the only ones who could read and interpret scripture. Talk about the ability to control the masses. And yes, that did occur, like it or not. Scripture was used and abused.