Apologetics Debate: God's Plan vs Free Will

[Votto]

Here is a riddle, if God created everything, then did God create sin?

Sin is "missing the mark." God created the ideal. He's willing to help us reach that mark or ideal if that is our desire.

That's the way I see it. Sin does not really exist. Sin is just the absence of God's love.

It is no small coincidence that darkness is described as the kingdom of Satan. Darkness does not really exist because it cannot be measured. All that can be measured is the absence of light, not darkness.

 

[Meriweather]

Here is a riddle, if God created everything, then did God create sin?

Sin is "missing the mark." God created the ideal. He's willing to help us reach that mark or ideal if that is our desire.

That's the way I see it. Sin does not really exist. Sin is just the absence of God's love.

It is no small coincidence that darkness is described as the kingdom of Satan. Darkness does not really exist because it cannot be measured. All that can be measured is the absence of light, not darkness.

Yes. Well said.

 

[Mudda]

God's plan is to fool us to think that we have free will, when in fact, we have none. If we don't choose god, we burn in hell. That's not free will, that's a threat.

No, it's man who enslaves us, it is God who gives us liberty.

For example, had it not been for Moses and the 10 commandments we would still probably be slaves working 24/7.

You're way off topic. God threatens us with hell if we don't choose him. That's a threat.

God offers us a choice. We choose life/love, which he represents and which he is the source of, or we are on our own.

God offers a choice, him or hell. That's not a choice that's a threat. We are not on our own, we'd be in hell. Total crap.

 

[Mudda]

God says choose me or hell. That's no choice it's a threat.

No, it is not a threat. It is an invitation into an eternal existence of goodness and love. No one is forced to accept the invitation as an existence of goodness and love does not appeal to everyone. Once again, if an eternal existence of goodness and love does not appeal, other options are limited either to an existence devoid of love and goodness--or no existence at all.

What kind of existence do you enjoy right now? Do you wish to continue in that mode eternally, or would you like to try something else?

What if you don't want his "invitation" and don't want to go to hell? I don't have free will to do something else?
And what makes you think that what you sat will happen? Got some proof?

If I have a million dollars and you want some of it, you must come to me. Maybe we can do business.

If you meet my needs/demands/criteria, then you may obtain it. If not, it's not yours to take in the first place.

So if I refuse your milsky, you burn me alive. Does that even make any sense to you? And where's your proof of hell if I don't obey?

 

[Mudda]

What if you don't want his "invitation" and don't want to go to hell? I don't have free will to do something else?
And what makes you think that what you sat will happen? Got some proof?

If you don't want God's invitation to live in His presence (love and goodness), then why would you complain about an existence outside the presence of God (what believers who wish to be with God call "hell")? I would think you would be extolling the pleasures of being in a place that, unlike earth, has no inkling of God, goodness, and love. Why aren't you trying to persuade people of the pleasures of being in a place where all you need to think of is self--that never again will you be bothered by someone or something that reminds you of God?

In other words, our hell (absence of God, goodness, and love) is your heaven. Ah, never again to be bothered or nagged to be good, to love better, or to believe.

What do you want free will to do? Do you want to make others your servants? Go right ahead, but you will have to choose from those who are after the same godless existence you desire--and fight off those who wish to make you their slave.

Can you tell me what type of eternal existence is your utopia once you have ruled out love and goodness?

My life is full of goodness and love without your god. And I have no servants, nor do I want or need any.
But to your question "Why aren't you trying to persuade people of the pleasures of being in a place where all you need to think of is self--that never again will you be bothered by someone or something that reminds you of God? ", my answer is: no proof of what you claim, so no need to do it.

 

[dblack]

Can one truly have free will if God directs the Universe?

Is God omniscient and knows already what you think and what you will do?

If God is omnipotent then does he direct every subatomic particle simultaneously or did he put the Universe into motion at the moment of creation having foreknowledge of how everything would go? How much control over our lives does He have?

If God has a plan or a purpose for Creation, then how much free will do we really have? None at all, only as much so long as our choices do not go against God's plan or purposes, or are we free to do whatever we want?

Is free will a question of all or none?

It is my contention that one can not have free will and be omniscient. If one already knows every possible outcome of every decision, not making a choice that has the most benefit would simply be arbitrarily contrary to one's own purpose - something I don't see as rational or as a trait of God.

Therefore, God, as described by Christians either does not exist, or we do not have free will.

Debate!

Great topic!

It's interesting to note that this question is really independent of religious faith, being essentially the free-will vs determinism problem. In my view, it's one of those problem that's formulated incoherently out-of-the-gate, and will only ever produce contradictory results. The problem is with our conception of free will. What does it even mean? What does it mean to be free from causality (ie, 'God directing the universe')? If your decisions and will aren't based on your previous mental state, your memories, experiences, situation, etc... what ARE they based on? Random chance? If that's what we mean by 'free-will', why would anyone want it?

 

[Meriweather]

My life is full of goodness and love without your god. And I have no servants, nor do I want or need any.
But to your question "Why aren't you trying to persuade people of the pleasures of being in a place where all you need to think of is self--that never again will you be bothered by someone or something that reminds you of God? ", my answer is: no proof of what you claim, so no need to do it.

It is good to actually know that your life is full of goodness and love, because this does not come across in your posts. What I perceive from your posts is a great need to torment and taunt people who have had experiences of God/afterlife by demanding they meet your burden of "proof" (those with mere eyewitness testimony need not apply).

In this life there is neither the full reality of heaven or hell, but an opportunity to taste each. What part of your life do you enjoy most? The loving portion or the taunting portion?

 

[Mudda]

My life is full of goodness and love without your god. And I have no servants, nor do I want or need any.
But to your question "Why aren't you trying to persuade people of the pleasures of being in a place where all you need to think of is self--that never again will you be bothered by someone or something that reminds you of God? ", my answer is: no proof of what you claim, so no need to do it.

It is good to actually know that your life is full of goodness and love, because this does not come across in your posts. What I perceive from your posts is a great need to torment and taunt people who have had experiences of God/afterlife by demanding they meet your burden of "proof" (those with mere eyewitness testimony need not apply).

In this life there is neither the full reality of heaven or hell, but an opportunity to taste each. What part of your life do you enjoy most? The loving portion or the taunting portion?

I'm not snarky, I just ask straightforward questions until I get an answer that will satisfy reality. It also gets annoying to constantly hear from people like you such a condescending attitude because you actually think that you've found the truth, when all you've found is a nice comfortable fantasy world that you've tried to bring to life (one of the reasons that you come here, to try to validate your fantasy). So next time you accuse someone of being snarky, try looking in the mirror first.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm not snarky, I just ask straightforward questions until I get an answer that will satisfy reality. It also gets annoying to constantly hear from people like you such a condescending attitude because you actually think that you've found the truth, when all you've found is a nice comfortable fantasy world that you've tried to bring to life (one of the reasons that you come here, to try to validate your fantasy). So next time you accuse someone of being snarky, try looking in the mirror first.

I'm being neither snarky nor condescending--and I am pointing out the reality. I don't "think" I have found the truth, I know that I have found the truth. The reason I am here is to share with others and to support them in their journey. This world that you call fantasy is not always the comfortable one you are imagining. I need no validation here--and if I did, I certainly wouldn't be engaging you. I know I am not going to change the mind of anyone who is convinced they need scientific laboratory proof in order to exercise the mustard seed of faith they were given. No, it's more likely that anything I say is simply going to harden your heart against God and the choice of love and goodness that He offers. As that is not my intent, I doubt I'll be engaging you very often. Sorry to have bothered you this time, but sometimes enthusiasm for what is and what lies ahead bubbles over. Please forgive me for annoying you.

 

[Mudda]

I'm not snarky, I just ask straightforward questions until I get an answer that will satisfy reality. It also gets annoying to constantly hear from people like you such a condescending attitude because you actually think that you've found the truth, when all you've found is a nice comfortable fantasy world that you've tried to bring to life (one of the reasons that you come here, to try to validate your fantasy). So next time you accuse someone of being snarky, try looking in the mirror first.

I'm being neither snarky nor condescending--and I am pointing out the reality. I don't "think" I have found the truth, I know that I have found the truth. The reason I am here is to share with others and to support them in their journey. This world that you call fantasy is not always the comfortable one you are imagining. I need no validation here--and if I did, I certainly wouldn't be engaging you. I know I am not going to change the mind of anyone who is convinced they need scientific laboratory proof in order to exercise the mustard seed of faith they were given. No, it's more likely that anything I say is simply going to harden your heart against God and the choice of love and goodness that He offers. As that is not my intent, I doubt I'll be engaging you very often. Sorry to have bothered you this time, but sometimes enthusiasm for what is and what lies ahead bubbles over. Please forgive me for annoying you.

The world I called a fantasy is the world you've made up for yourself to feel safe. Show me some real proof of what you say and I could be convinced that you've actually found the truth, because so far, you haven't shown anything pertinent that would validate what you claim.

 

[the_human_being]

My view, if anyone really cares, is that God is calling out a few people during this present age to serve Him in accomplishing certain tasks. I do not believe He is actually working during this present age to save all of mankind - only a few.

God has said that these few whom He is now hand-picking, will be born again in the first resurrection as "spirit beings" and be called the "sons of God" The remainder of mankind, the vast majority of mankind, will be again born as flesh and blood human beings.

God is just. He is fair. God allowed Adam and Eve to be alive a time before Satan came into the picture. All was well during the first part of creation. The rest of mankind has never experienced a time when Satan was not on the scene and influencing our carnal minds.

When Christ returns, Satan will be locked away and unable to influence us. We will then be on an equal footing with Adam and Eve at the very beginning of creation. Realize that millions of people had already been born before the Ten Commandments were ever given to Moses. Realize that millions of people had already been born and died without ever even hearing of God or the Christ.

These few that God is now calling out of the world will have the tremendous task of re-educating the masses of human beings resurrected. It is said these will be kings, priests, and judges on the earth during Christ's millennial reign when Christ will reconcile and subdue all things.
There is joy in the morning.

 

[Meriweather]

The world I called a fantasy is the world you've made up for yourself to feel safe. Show me some real proof of what you say and I could be convinced that you've actually found the truth, because so far, you haven't shown anything pertinent that would validate what you claim.

Ah. Your hypothesis is that I need or want to feel safe. Which, actually, I don't.
Second, making a claim and being a witness to that claim are a bit different. Third, scientific proof requires physical data. The spiritual realm offers no physical data. Would you ask someone to prove the existence of water by demanding they produce it by cutting open a rock? Likewise, demanding that a non-physical realm produce physical evidence of its existence is as counter productive as attempting to produce blood from a turnip.

Can you imagine living in a multi-dimensional world, or imagine there are other dimensions than the one in which we exist? So, no, there is no need to feel safe, but rather a willingness and enthusiasm to continue to explore eye-witness accounts of things that are not of this physical world. And...the willingness to do it outside the confines of physical assurance.

 

[Mudda]

The world I called a fantasy is the world you've made up for yourself to feel safe. Show me some real proof of what you say and I could be convinced that you've actually found the truth, because so far, you haven't shown anything pertinent that would validate what you claim.

Ah. Your hypothesis is that I need or want to feel safe. Which, actually, I don't.
Second, making a claim and being a witness to that claim are a bit different. Third, scientific proof requires physical data. The spiritual realm offers no physical data. Would you ask someone to prove the existence of water by demanding they produce it by cutting open a rock? Likewise, demanding that a non-physical realm produce physical evidence of its existence is as counter productive as attempting to produce blood from a turnip.

Can you imagine living in a multi-dimensional world, or imagine there are other dimensions than the one in which we exist? So, no, there is no need to feel safe, but rather a willingness and enthusiasm to continue to explore eye-witness accounts of things that are not of this physical world. And...the willingness to do it outside the confines of physical assurance.

You've completely deluded yourself into thinking something without a shred of proof is real. It's actually made up nonsense. "The spiritual realm offers no physical data." In other words, you admit that you have nothing. Got it.

 

[Meriweather]

You've completely deluded yourself into thinking something without a shred of proof is real. It's actually made up nonsense. "The spiritual realm offers no physical data." In other words, you admit that you have nothing. Got it.

Grin. Not only have you not "Got it", you are not very good at reading minds. Anyway, must get ready to go to my science lab, where we will be dealing with actual proofs today. You have fun as well.

 

[Mudda]

You've completely deluded yourself into thinking something without a shred of proof is real. It's actually made up nonsense. "The spiritual realm offers no physical data." In other words, you admit that you have nothing. Got it.

Grin. Not only have you not "Got it", you are not very good at reading minds. Anyway, must get ready to go to my science lab, where we will be dealing with actual proofs today. You have fun as well.

I've got it alright. you've come up with a pleasuring and reassuring theory that you admit has no proof, but is the actual truth for no particular reason except that it makes you feel good and safe (in god's hands). What astounds me is how do you make that leap from reality to basing your whole existence on made-up stuff and expect anyone to take you seriously? Hey, maybe when you go to the lab you can't explain to everyone how nobody needs any proof, so why waste time measuring or testing something? And you could all go out for ice cream.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Can one truly have free will if God directs the Universe?

Is God omniscient and knows already what you think and what you will do?

If God is omnipotent then does he direct every subatomic particle simultaneously or did he put the Universe into motion at the moment of creation having foreknowledge of how everything would go? How much control over our lives does He have?

If God has a plan or a purpose for Creation, then how much free will do we really have? None at all, only as much so long as our choices do not go against God's plan or purposes, or are we free to do whatever we want?

Is free will a question of all or none?

It is my contention that one can not have free will and be omniscient. If one already knows every possible outcome of every decision, not making a choice that has the most benefit would simply be arbitrarily contrary to one's own purpose - something I don't see as rational or as a trait of God.

Therefore, God, as described by Christians either does not exist, or we do not have free will.

Debate!

Great topic!

It's interesting to note that this question is really independent of religious faith, being essentially the free-will vs determinism problem. In my view, it's one of those problem that's formulated incoherently out-of-the-gate, and will only ever produce contradictory results. The problem is with our conception of free will. What does it even mean? What does it mean to be free from causality (ie, 'God directing the universe')? If your decisions and will aren't based on your previous mental state, your memories, experiences, situation, etc... what ARE they based on? Random chance? If that's what we mean by 'free-will', why would anyone want it?

Thanks, I'm glad you find the topic interesting. And I agree with everything you've written above. It isn't as if we make choices that are entirely independent of the circumstances that lead us to those choices.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

God's plan for us is for us to become like him.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Since God is a being of free will, it is essential for him to give us free will so that we can learn to choose good of our own volition.

Even the command implies that we are to choose perfection of our own free will.

Doesn't strike you as somewhat ironic that God commands us to have free will?

If God's plan is for us to becone like Him, what happens if we fail? Does it screw up His plan?

Where does he command us to have free will? He has already given it to us. He gives us commandments which we are free to obey or not obey. If we fail it won't be because he didn't do his part. It will be because we chose of our own free will to disobey him. This does not screw up his plan. He knows the end from the beginning. He has already prepared a places for those who will not enter his kingdom. He never planned to force you into his kingdom.

Sorry I misread the last line of your post. I retract the "God commands free will" comment.

You say

He has already prepared a places for those who will not enter his kingdom.

so he knows already who will be saved and who will not. So, again, He knows the future and has an ultimate plan. This is your belief, right?

My confusion about this is how can God's plan matter if He already knows the outcome of free willed beings whom He does not influence to choose to be saved? Does that make sense?

This is a difficult idea to put to words, so let me see if I can't clarify. It seems His plan doesn't attempt to save those who He already knows will not be saved by His plan.

Wouldn't He want to improve His plan to influence those who will end up not saved to find Him before it's too late? Wouldn't He want to keep tweaking the plan until it is the perfect plan to bring all His children to Him? And I don't mean through compulsion but through teaching us that salvation through His son is preferable to damnation after we die and that love and goodness is preferable to the alternative as we live?

The Bible isn't saving everyone, and Christians aren't succeeding in saving everyone, so wouldn't He want to cause events in our lives that show us His love and the meaning of salvation so that we are utterly convinced that He is the one, true God who loves us and wants us to accept His love?

I hear Christians frequently say that they didn't believe or truly believe until they received a sign or had something happen that turned them to God. Why doesn't He do this for everyone?

I personally haven't had such an experience so there is no motivation for me to convert beyond academic debate and Christians spreading a message of a belief system that does not fit with my values. Obviously this is most often the case because there are fewer Christians than non-Christians.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

God says choose me or hell. That's no choice it's a threat.

No, it is not a threat. It is an invitation into an eternal existence of goodness and love. No one is forced to accept the invitation as an existence of goodness and love does not appeal to everyone. Once again, if an eternal existence of goodness and love does not appeal, other options are limited either to an existence devoid of love and goodness--or no existence at all.

What kind of existence do you enjoy right now? Do you wish to continue in that mode eternally, or would you like to try something else?

What if you don't want his "invitation" and don't want to go to hell? I don't have free will to do something else?
And what makes you think that what you sat will happen? Got some proof?

If I have a million dollars and you want some of it, you must come to me. Maybe we can do business.

If you meet my needs/demands/criteria, then you may obtain it. If not, it's not yours to take in the first place.

This is a little off topic from the OP, but I think your analogy isn't quite accurate. To me it's more as if your offering a million dollars if I do business with you, but if I don't you'll have me killed.

Perhaps it was a poor analogy. Let me try again.

People don't understand how God can be loving and allow suffering. Well guess what, sin causes suffering. So if God were loving, his goal should be to ultimately blot out all sin forever. Luckily that is his plan.

God has provided a way for us to destroy the sin in our lives without destroying the sinner, which we all are. If he were to continue to provide life to those who relish sinning, then he would merely prolong suffering throughout creation.

But, ultimately He destroys the sinner. This is my problem with the Christian idea if free will: God's plan is to rid all Creation of sin, and for those beings with free will who don't go along with His plan (which He already knows who those beings are) damnation.

It would seem to me that an omniscient and omnipotent God would perfect His plan to influence (not compel) those who don't go along with His plan to accept His plan as the perfect plan! This shouldn't be too difficult a challenge for one who is omnipotent AND omniscient.

You see the paradox there, right?

 

[BreezeWood]

The Bible isn't saving everyone, and Christians aren't succeeding in saving everyone, so wouldn't He want to cause events in our lives that show us His love and the meaning of salvation so that we are utterly convinced that He is the one, true God who loves us and wants us to accept His love?

.
... so wouldn't He want to cause events in our lives that show us -

the parable of Noah stipulates a concern for humanity, the species not individuals as the finality will be for all of humanity to succeed or face extinction not an individual -

... so wouldn't He want to cause events in our lives that show us His love and the meaning of salvation so that we are utterly convinced that He is the one, true God who loves us and wants us to accept His love?

? - it is your choice to succeed, the Almighty could care less for an individual and your personal success alone is not enough but is dependent for the salvation of all humanity otherwise according to Noah (from God) in finality the failure of humanity will cause everyone to perish the same.


* excerpts from religious texts are independent of the religions that reflect them ... not a christian.

.

 

[Mudda]

My view, if anyone really cares, is that God is calling out a few people during this present age to serve Him in accomplishing certain tasks. I do not believe He is actually working during this present age to save all of mankind - only a few.

God has said that these few whom He is now hand-picking, will be born again in the first resurrection as "spirit beings" and be called the "sons of God" The remainder of mankind, the vast majority of mankind, will be again born as flesh and blood human beings.

God is just. He is fair. God allowed Adam and Eve to be alive a time before Satan came into the picture. All was well during the first part of creation. The rest of mankind has never experienced a time when Satan was not on the scene and influencing our carnal minds.

When Christ returns, Satan will be locked away and unable to influence us. We will then be on an equal footing with Adam and Eve at the very beginning of creation. Realize that millions of people had already been born before the Ten Commandments were ever given to Moses. Realize that millions of people had already been born and died without ever even hearing of God or the Christ.

These few that God is now calling out of the world will have the tremendous task of re-educating the masses of human beings resurrected. It is said these will be kings, priests, and judges on the earth during Christ's millennial reign when Christ will reconcile and subdue all things.
There is joy in the morning.

God said? Ummm... no. God has never spoken.

And god only wants to save a few people? Good to know, the rest of us can stop trying to kiss his ass.