Apologetics Debate: God's Plan vs Free Will

[Coloradomtnman]

Can one truly have free will if God directs the Universe?

Is God omniscient and knows already what you think and what you will do?

If God is omnipotent then does he direct every subatomic particle simultaneously or did he put the Universe into motion at the moment of creation having foreknowledge of how everything would go? How much control over our lives does He have?

If God has a plan or a purpose for Creation, then how much free will do we really have? None at all, only as much so long as our choices do not go against God's plan or purposes, or are we free to do whatever we want?

Is free will a question of all or none?

It is my contention that one can not have free will and be omniscient. If one already knows every possible outcome of every decision, not making a choice that has the most benefit would simply be arbitrarily contrary to one's own purpose - something I don't see as rational or as a trait of God.

Therefore, God, as described by Christians either does not exist, or we do not have free will.

Debate!

 

[Delta4Embassy]

If God directs the universe, someone's gonna have to exlain supernovaes and roaming black holes eating whole solar systems.

To say nothing of when Andromeda and our Milky Way galaxies collide and likely wipe out all life in both. That was God's plan?

 

[Spinster]

We do indeed have free will. Free will is completely aside from acting in accordance with what we know to be obedient to what God wishes for our lives. Like any normal parent, God wants only the very best for us, His children. He gave us free will because it wouldn't very satisfying to have created a bunch of robots. Because of free will we can make decisions about our lives. Are the decisions we make ultimately for our own good. Usually not. When we begin living our lives for ourselves and not to please God, then we normally make bad decisions. If we're living to be obedient to Him, we can't go wrong. Do we fall short? Sure, most of the time. Frankly, I can't imagine not believing in God. What is there to hope for if that is the case? You live, you die, and that's it? Seems very, very empty.

 

[onefour1]

With God we get free will. Just not free will without consequences. All our actions, whether or not God exists, bring about consequences.

 

[aris2chat]

no god (not one that meddles in our lives or he would have done a better job), no plan, just all us

 

[Coloradomtnman]

We do indeed have free will. Free will is completely aside from acting in accordance with what we know to be obedient to what God wishes for our lives. Like any normal parent, God wants only the very best for us, His children. He gave us free will because it wouldn't very satisfying to have created a bunch of robots. Because of free will we can make decisions about our lives. Are the decisions we make ultimately for our own good. Usually not. When we begin living our lives for ourselves and not to please God, then we normally make bad decisions. If we're living to be obedient to Him, we can't go wrong. Do we fall short? Sure, most of the time. Frankly, I can't imagine not believing in God. What is there to hope for if that is the case? You live, you die, and that's it? Seems very, very empty.

If we do not act in accordance to God's will, do we mess up his Grand Plan? That is the question posed in the OP.

An existence without God (as you believe Him to be) is far more complex and richer than you have described above. What you imagine is the "spirit" of a nonbeliever's life is not nearly that simplistic.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

With God we get free will. Just not free will without consequences. All our actions, whether or not God exists, bring about consequences.

But do any decisions we make that are not in accordance with His Grand Plan a setback for God or are they part of His plan for Creation?

 

[Spinster]

We do indeed have free will. Free will is completely aside from acting in accordance with what we know to be obedient to what God wishes for our lives. Like any normal parent, God wants only the very best for us, His children. He gave us free will because it wouldn't very satisfying to have created a bunch of robots. Because of free will we can make decisions about our lives. Are the decisions we make ultimately for our own good. Usually not. When we begin living our lives for ourselves and not to please God, then we normally make bad decisions. If we're living to be obedient to Him, we can't go wrong. Do we fall short? Sure, most of the time. Frankly, I can't imagine not believing in God. What is there to hope for if that is the case? You live, you die, and that's it? Seems very, very empty.

If we do not act in accordance to God's will, do we mess up his Grand Plan? That is the question posed in the OP.

An existence without God (as you believe Him to be) is far more complex and richer than you have described above. What you imagine is the "spirit" of a nonbeliever's life is not nearly that simplistic.

Answered that in my post. No, God isn't sidetracked or derailed when we do something outside of His will for us. He is far greater than that and often times blesses us despite what we do in disobedience. He wants only the best for His children, again. You are simply trying to elevate the lifestyle of a non-believer. If that makes you feel better, if that soothes your conscience, have at it--knock yourself out. Non-believers don't have the same spirit believers have. There are many spirits, none good except for God's. Satan is a spirit and he is a liar and knows only evil. When a person reaches the end of their life, if they have renounced God, their spirit goes to hell. If they accepted God and sought Him in their life, they go to heaven. The final "resting place" is for eternity. There is no hope in hell, only torment.

 

[BreezeWood]

.

Can one truly have free will if God directs the Universe?

sure, and become dead as a door nail when necessary - the true story of Satan.


if God directs the Universe ....

your quire begs the question - need there be EVIL in the universe ?

.

 

[Abishai100]

The Office: Cuffs

Why do American businessman properly stiffen the collars of their dress shirts with starch before wearing these professional-looking clothing items to work?

Why do human beings associate self-image with appearance presentation (i.e., substance with style)?

The Bible says that God made man in His own image, but it seems that man is fascinated with how he looks/appears to other men.

Maybe free will is connected to self-improvement.






Dress Shirt

 

[Coloradomtnman]

.

Can one truly have free will if God directs the Universe?

if God directs the Universe ....

your quire begs the question - need there be EVIL in the universe ?

Yes it does, but I wanted to focus on this one aspect of that larger question.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Sounds like a pretty boring experiment for God if all possible outcomes are known.
Seems more likely that it was all set in motion without a plan. Maybe we are just one of many universes on a table in petri dishes as part of some scientific exercise.
There is a whole other dimension to our world discovered at the microscopic level. Why not us?
We are so small that our universe seems infinite to us. It may just be a drop on a slide. It's all relative to the observer.

I can't imagine that God much cares what we do only that we learn from it and grow.

 

[aris2chat]

Sounds like a pretty boring experiment for God if all possible outcomes are known.
Seems more likely that it was all set in motion without a plan. Maybe we are just one of many universes on a table in petri dishes as part of some scientific exercise.
There is a whole other dimension to our world discovered at the microscopic level. Why not us?
We are so small that our universe seems infinite to us. It may just be a drop on a slide. It's all relative to the observer.

I can't imagine that God much cares what we do only that we learn from it and grow.

God like a toddler learning to observe and play with his new toys. Tantrum here, ignore there and sometimes he plays nice

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Sounds like a pretty boring experiment for God if all possible outcomes are known.
Seems more likely that it was all set in motion without a plan. Maybe we are just one of many universes on a table in petri dishes as part of some scientific exercise.
There is a whole other dimension to our world discovered at the microscopic level. Why not us?
We are so small that our universe seems infinite to us. It may just be a drop on a slide. It's all relative to the observer.

I can't imagine that God much cares what we do only that we learn from it and grow.

God like a toddler learning to observe and play with his new toys. Tantrum here, ignore there and sometimes he plays nice

It makes more sense to me than some rigid dogma that creates more questions than it answers.

 

[aris2chat]

Sounds like a pretty boring experiment for God if all possible outcomes are known.
Seems more likely that it was all set in motion without a plan. Maybe we are just one of many universes on a table in petri dishes as part of some scientific exercise.
There is a whole other dimension to our world discovered at the microscopic level. Why not us?
We are so small that our universe seems infinite to us. It may just be a drop on a slide. It's all relative to the observer.

I can't imagine that God much cares what we do only that we learn from it and grow.

God like a toddler learning to observe and play with his new toys. Tantrum here, ignore there and sometimes he plays nice

It makes more sense to me than some rigid dogma that creates more questions than it answers.

It does seem like we are just an ant farm to him, with no emotional care just observation, occasionally poke with a stick or drop the whole think on the floor and start over.

All the massacres and disasters are of no concern to it.

But some people think god will take sides in some high school football game.

go figure

 

[the_human_being]

Can one truly have free will if God directs the Universe?

Is God omniscient and knows already what you think and what you will do?

If God is omnipotent then does he direct every subatomic particle simultaneously or did he put the Universe into motion at the moment of creation having foreknowledge of how everything would go? How much control over our lives does He have?

If God has a plan or a purpose for Creation, then how much free will do we really have? None at all, only as much so long as our choices do not go against God's plan or purposes, or are we free to do whatever we want?

Is free will a question of all or none?

It is my contention that one can not have free will and be omniscient. If one already knows every possible outcome of every decision, not making a choice that has the most benefit would simply be arbitrarily contrary to one's own purpose - something I don't see as rational or as a trait of God.

Therefore, God, as described by Christians either does not exist, or we do not have free will.

Debate!

You paint with a wide brush when you say "all Christians". Have you not heard of Universal Reconciliation or Universalism? Those are Christian believers too. Some of you would be well served to google these beliefs for an in-depth study.

 

[tyroneweaver]

God is not a student. He doesn't create rocks heavier than he can lift. And we're not lab rats.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Can one truly have free will if God directs the Universe?

Is God omniscient and knows already what you think and what you will do?

If God is omnipotent then does he direct every subatomic particle simultaneously or did he put the Universe into motion at the moment of creation having foreknowledge of how everything would go? How much control over our lives does He have?

If God has a plan or a purpose for Creation, then how much free will do we really have? None at all, only as much so long as our choices do not go against God's plan or purposes, or are we free to do whatever we want?

Is free will a question of all or none?

It is my contention that one can not have free will and be omniscient. If one already knows every possible outcome of every decision, not making a choice that has the most benefit would simply be arbitrarily contrary to one's own purpose - something I don't see as rational or as a trait of God.

Therefore, God, as described by Christians either does not exist, or we do not have free will.

Debate!

You paint with a wide brush when you say "all Christians". Have you not heard of Universal Reconciliation or Universalism? Those are Christian believers too. Some of you would be well served to google these beliefs for an in-depth study.

I didn't write "all Christians". I wrote "God, as described by Christians" and what meant was the God of the Bible.

Whether Universalists or Amish or Catholic or Protestant or what-have-you, God as described in the Bible either has a plan for you, me, and all of us, and for the Universe or we have free will. There is no middle ground. That is my contention.

Want to debate? That is what this thread is about: debating apologetics.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

God is not a student. He doesn't create rocks heavier than he can lift. And we're not lab rats.

0k, but does God have a plan for us all and all Creation, or do we have free will?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

With God we get free will. Just not free will without consequences. All our actions, whether or not God exists, bring about consequences.

The question is: does God have a plan for us, does Creation have an ultimate purpose or do we have free will? It is, in my opinion, and either/or question. If you disagree, then let's debate!