Zone1 And Jesus said "Depart from me, all you..." What? Evil believers? No, "Evildoers"

[Meriweather]

It sounds like you're saying that Catholics believe a person is not fully justified by Christ alone, but have to earn part of their salvation, and based on what I've seen you write other times, if they don't earn sufficient points, must spend time in purgatory to make up for their lack. Is that one way of putting it?

It sounds like you are saying that your denomination holds no belief that they must be sorry for their sins, that they must ask for forgiveness, that they must, if they can, make restitution, or be reconciled with anyone they have sinned against. They simply shrug their shoulders as they fall into sin and murmur, "God doesn't see this. He only sees the justification/righteousness that is Christ's, and which is perfect. As long as I believe in Christ, my own soul can be filled with filth, because God only sees Christ's.

So, are we ready to stop with the "sounds like your saying" and listen to what we are saying?

And, just so we're clear, that completely contradicts the experience of the theif on

Oh, so the Father never saw the thief and his life, he only saw his Son and his son's life?

 

[hadit]

It sounds like you are saying that your denomination holds no belief that they must be sorry for their sins, that they must ask for forgiveness, that they must, if they can, make restitution, or be reconciled with anyone they have sinned against. They simply shrug their shoulders as they fall into sin and murmur, "God doesn't see this. He only sees the justification/righteousness that is Christ's, and which is perfect. As long as I believe in Christ, my own soul can be filled with filth, because God only sees Christ's.

So, are we ready to stop with the "sounds like your saying" and listen to what we are saying?

It's impossible to say that's what I sound like because I've explicitly stated the opposite. I've stated that someone who claims to have faith but returns to a sinful, selfish life is not telling the truth. How can I claim to be in a loving relationship with my wife if I live like I'm single? No, if I love her, I will live like she is my wife, and anyone looking on will know by the way I act and how I treat her. It is likewise with Jesus. If I claim to be in relationship with Him, if I claim to love and worship Him, I had better be living in such a way that it's clear I do, not living in rebellion against Him, thinking everything I do all week is fine if I just go to confession on Sunday.

Oh, so the Father never saw the thief and his life, he only saw his Son and his son's life?

We first must state the obvious, that God will not allow sinful, unjustified man into His perfect presence.

You maintain, if I read correctly what you wrote, that when a follower of Christ dies in their sins, they get tossed into Purgatory to work on them for a while until they've earned their way into God's presence. Jesus nuked that idea when He explicitly stated that the thief would be with Him in Paradise that very day. The thief could do nothing to atone for what he had done, so of all those who follow Jesus, he should have had a stay in Purgatory until he earned his way out, but that's not what Jesus did for him. Jesus totally justified him by His sacrifice and no input or work from him was necessary beyond the simple faith. He acknowledged his wrongdoing to Jesus and believed that He would save him, and that's all that was required.

Given then that God will not allow unjustified man into His presence, and the fact that the thief immediately upon death went with Jesus to Paradise, I think it's obvious that God saw him as completely justified and imputed his faith to him for righteousness, just like He did with the OT saints, as we see in Hebrews 11. And if He can do that for the thief, He can do it for me. Salvation is a gift that we cannot earn, deliberately so that none of us can boast. None of us can say to another, "I won't be as long in Purgatory as you because I've done so many good things. God has to let me out faster". None of us can lord it over anyone else that we are superior because we did more good things that they did, or because the name on our church door is one thing or another. Salvation itself is impossible to earn, any more than it's possible to swim from California to Hawaii. Sure, some will make it further into the ocean than others, but no one's walking out of the surf on the Hawaiin beach. Get on Jesus' cruise ship, however, and you will make it to Hawaii.

We are rewarded for obedience and good works, Scripture makes that clear. Justification itself, however, is through faith, NOT works. Faith without works, moreover, is dead. When a daredevil crosses Niagara Falls on a tightrope, pushing a wheelbarrow in front of him, then asks the crowd if they believe he could safely take one of them over the rope in the wheelbarrow, do they have faith if they say, "Absolutely you could, but I'm not getting in it"?

 

[Meriweather]

It's impossible to say that's what I sound like because I've explicitly stated the opposite. I've stated that someone who claims to have faith but returns to a sinful, selfish life is not telling the truth. How can I claim to be in a loving relationship with my wife if I live like I'm single? No, if I love her, I will live like she is my wife, and anyone looking on will know by the way I act and how I treat her. It is likewise with Jesus. If I claim to be in relationship with Him, if I claim to love and worship Him, I had better be living in such a way that it's clear I do, not living in rebellion against Him, thinking everything I do all week is fine if I just go to confession on Sunday.

Then you do see my point? That Catholics are doing the exact same thing you are doing in having faith in redemption and salvation turns them turning to a new way of life, repenting of sins, reconciling differences with others, and making restitution where possible? So why on earth are you accusing Catholics of trying to earn their way to heaven and then declare that by doing the exact same thing you are not earning your way at all?

So, quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church, tell me precisely what Catholics are doing to earn their salvation.

 

[Meriweather]

You maintain, if I read correctly what you wrote, that when a follower of Christ dies in their sins, they get tossed into Purgatory to work on them for a while until they've earned their way into God's presence.

You read quite incorrectly. Care to try again?

 

[Meriweather]

We are rewarded for obedience and good works, Scripture makes that clear. Justification itself, however, is through faith, NOT works.

And now you circle around to the beginning. It's not works when you ask for forgiveness, repent of your sins, and seek reconciliation. That's only "works" when Catholics do the exact same thing because, after all they are Catholic. Horrors.

 

[hadit]

Then you do see my point? That Catholics are doing the exact same thing you are doing in having faith in redemption and salvation turns them turning to a new way of life, repenting of sins, reconciling differences with others, and making restitution where possible? So why on earth are you accusing Catholics of trying to earn their way to heaven and then declare that by doing the exact same thing you are not earning your way at all?

So, quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church, tell me precisely what Catholics are doing to earn their salvation.

I wish you could convince your fellow Catholics who post on here that justification is by faith and not by works.

 

[hadit]

You read quite incorrectly. Care to try again?

Didn't you post that people are sent to Purgatory to clean things up, to get totally purified, etc.? What are they doing in there if not working to purify themselves, i.e., works?

 

[hadit]

And now you circle around to the beginning. It's not works when you ask for forgiveness, repent of your sins, and seek reconciliation. That's only "works" when Catholics do the exact same thing because, after all they are Catholic. Horrors.

It's works either way. The sticking point, and I know you love that phrase, is what justifies a person in God's eyes. Plain, pure and simple, it's faith. That's why the thief was able to go with Jesus to Paradise, he had absolutely nothing to offer except his faith.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus nuked that idea when He explicitly stated that the thief would be with Him in Paradise that very day.

Let's take a closer look at this. Do you believe Paradise is a synonym for 'heaven'. If so, etymology would disagree with you. Paradise is considered a garden, perhaps a garden outside the gates of heaven, but it is not heaven itself. Also note Jesus told Mary, after the resurrection, not to touch him for he had not yet ascended to the Father.

For those who believe God saw only Jesus' righteousness in the thief, then a thief's righteousness is the same as Jesus, that there is only one level of righteousness in heaven. Yet how can this be when scripture tells us we should store up treasure, and that heavenly rewards vary? Wouldn't this be very unfair when all have the same righteousness as Jesus?

As I said in an earlier post, some (Catholic teaching) believe we received righteousness from Jesus, while others see it as having the righteousness of Jesus (the righteousness that is his).

 

[Meriweather]

It's works either way. The sticking point, and I know you love that phrase, is what justifies a person in God's eyes. Plain, pure and simple, it's faith. That's why the thief was able to go with Jesus to Paradise, he had absolutely nothing to offer except his faith.

Our difference is the phrase "faith alone" which appears once in the Bible where James notes, "As you can see man is justified by his deeds, not by faith alone..." Faith is our starting point. Based on reason, we believe in God and have faith in his ways and his promises. Therefore, we listen to him and are obedient to him. God, in advance, planned works for us. It is by our faith we leap into the works God has planned for us. We have faith in his plans and that he will guide us as we do his works. Abraham had so much faith in God that when God asked him to sacrifice his son (a work), Abraham proceeded to follow this plan, trusting in God, having faith God would not fail him--or Isaac. How this plan would work, Abraham hadn't a clue, all he had was his faith and so he proceeded with work God had planned for him in advance.

The only time the words "faith alone" appear in the Bible is when it emphasizes it is not by faith alone that we are justified.

 

[Meriweather]

I wish you could convince your fellow Catholics who post on here that justification is by faith and not by works.

I don't have to convince them as they haven't a warped view of justification. They know faith is like the opening kick-off in a football game. Without that kick-off the game would not start. But the game is not "Kick-off" alone. From there, the game proceeds with deeds--plays planned by the coach and practiced in advance. Catholics have faith to jump into the works God has set before us, knowing that even if we don't completely understand what is going on, God does, and to him we give our all--our faith in him is that great.

 

[Meriweather]

Didn't you post that people are sent to Purgatory to clean things up, to get totally purified, etc.? What are they doing in there if not working to purify themselves, i.e., works?

So you say purification in purgatory is about works? First I heard this. After physical death, we are souls without bodies. What kinds of works are you imagining souls without bodies are able to accomplish? Catholics do acknowledge that purgatory (from purging) is a purification process. What that process may be, is not said. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it does appear thirst may be involved. As we do not have bodies, the Beatitude comes to mind: Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be filled. Pure speculation on my part, but it appears we know we are lacking in the righteousness that comes from Christ, for if we had Christ's righteousness, we wouldn't be hungering and thirsting for it.

 

[Meriweather]

@ hadit, your belief that God sees in you all the justification/righteousness that is of Christ isn't something to which I object. That is your belief. What I object to are the errors you accuse Catholics of making of our belief that justification/righteousness is from Christ.

Think about it. If you truly believe when you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, God then sees nothing but Christ's blood in you, nothing but Christ's righteousness/justification, then there is nothing wrong with you saying that you hold no belief in repentance, reconciliation, restitution, etc, because after all, your belief that all God sees you is the righteousness of Christ. Nor is there anything wrong with saying, that just because God no longer sees sin is us any more than he sees sin in Christ, that does not mean sin being meaningless to us after we accept Christ, we sin at will. We see it as living a new life. Which begs the question: After accepting Christ and God now only seeing Christ's righteousness in you, what is your purpose for living that new life since God no longer sees anything but righteousness in your sins?

 

[hadit]

Our difference is the phrase "faith alone" which appears once in the Bible where James notes, "As you can see man is justified by his deeds, not by faith alone..." Faith is our starting point. Based on reason, we believe in God and have faith in his ways and his promises. Therefore, we listen to him and are obedient to him. God, in advance, planned works for us. It is by our faith we leap into the works God has planned for us. We have faith in his plans and that he will guide us as we do his works. Abraham had so much faith in God that when God asked him to sacrifice his son (a work), Abraham proceeded to follow this plan, trusting in God, having faith God would not fail him--or Isaac. How this plan would work, Abraham hadn't a clue, all he had was his faith and so he proceeded with work God had planned for him in advance.

The only time the words "faith alone" appear in the Bible is when it emphasizes it is not by faith alone that we are justified.

It doesn't have to be "faith alone".

• Romans 5:1: "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
• Romans 3: 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
• Galatians 3:8: "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'All the nations will be blessed in you.'"
• Titus 3:7: "Having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

And, of course, let's look at this from Romans 4:

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Please, please tell me how you can ignore that.

 

[Meriweather]

It doesn't have to be "faith alone".

• Romans 5:1: "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
• Romans 3: 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
• Galatians 3:8: "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'All the nations will be blessed in you.'"
• Titus 3:7: "Having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

And, of course, let's look at this from Romans 4:

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Please, please tell me how you can ignore that.

Because faith prompts one into deeds (not works). Again: "As you can see man is justified by his deeds, not by faith alone..." The different words in the Bible, have different meanings. Just the word "work" has two different meanings, depending on what it is describing. Note your own proof-text: "Works of the law." Deeds have nothing to do with law.

Can you understand why I dismiss proof-texting? It doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

[hadit]

@ hadit, your belief that God sees in you all the justification/righteousness that is of Christ isn't something to which I object. That is your belief. What I object to are the errors you accuse Catholics of making of our belief that justification/righteousness is from Christ.

Think about it. If you truly believe when you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, God then sees nothing but Christ's blood in you, nothing but Christ's righteousness/justification, then there is nothing wrong with you saying that you hold no belief in repentance, reconciliation, restitution, etc, because after all, your belief that all God sees you is the righteousness of Christ. Nor is there anything wrong with saying, that just because God no longer sees sin is us any more than he sees sin in Christ, that does not mean sin being meaningless to us after we accept Christ, we sin at will. We see it as living a new life. Which begs the question: After accepting Christ and God now only seeing Christ's righteousness in you, what is your purpose for living that new life since God no longer sees anything but righteousness in your sins?

And therein lies your misconception about me. It would be exceedingly selfish for me to say, "Well, that's it, I'm fine, Jesus take me out of here". No, I quote Paul where he says:

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

It would be awesome for ME to go on and be with Christ, but He has things He needs me to do. This is where works come in. I'm fully justified by Christ. If I die tomorrow, my sin is covered, and I don't need works to lay out before God in order to be justified. Because of the joy that gives me, however, I seek to obey Him in every way I can. I mourn when I make mistakes and fall short of His perfect standard, but I know he forgives me and I can stand back up again.

Now, we also have to understand what repentance of sin really means. It doesn't just mean, "Oops, I'm sorry" and then return to doing it all over again. It means I acknowledge to God that I have done wrong and turn away from it, trying with all I have never to do it again. If I fail or fall short, I repent again. I am sad that you would think I believe otherwise. In fact, I think that's where your accusation against Protestants springs from, you think they believe they never have to repent of sin after doing it once. Being reborn is necessary, but we still have to kill that old nature every day and will need to until we're before God.

 

[Meriweather]

And therein lies your misconception about me. It would be exceedingly selfish for me to say, "Well, that's it, I'm fine, Jesus take me out of here". No, I quote Paul where he says:

21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

It would be awesome for ME to go on and be with Christ, but He has things He needs me to do. This is where works come in. I'm fully justified by Christ. If I die tomorrow, my sin is covered, and I don't need works to lay out before God in order to be justified. Because of the joy that gives me, however, I seek to obey Him in every way I can. I mourn when I make mistakes and fall short of His perfect standard, but I know he forgives me and I can stand back up again.

Now, we also have to understand what repentance of sin really means. It doesn't just mean, "Oops, I'm sorry" and then return to doing it all over again. It means I acknowledge to God that I have done wrong and turn away from it, trying with all I have never to do it again. If I fail or fall short, I repent again. I am sad that you would think I believe otherwise. In fact, I think that's where your accusation against Protestants springs from, you think they believe they never have to repent of sin after doing it once. Being reborn is necessary, but we still have to kill that old nature every day and will need to until we're before God.

Yes, I am well aware of what repentance means. I get that you believe that when you die, God will only see what is Christ's within you, that he won't see you, because Jesus covered up all of that. That is your faith. I am merely pointing out, that being the case, God pays no attention to anything you do after you accept Jesus, because Jesus is all he sees. Taking Christ's righteousness, your belief is that you and Christ are now equal when it comes to righteousness/justification. Therefore, that you continue to do what is right is laudable in the eyes of humans but useless in the eyes of God as your faith is that all God sees in you is Jesus.

 

[forkintheroad7]

Do all the latest posts here have much to do with the OP?

I don't know.. I don't have time to read them all..

But the original topic is Jesus rejecting people who are attempting to enter Heaven

In Luke, chapter 13, Jesus says that many will attempt to enter, "but will not be able..." (some versions say it differently)

 

[hadit]

Because faith prompts one into deeds (not works). Again: "As you can see man is justified by his deeds, not by faith alone..." The different words in the Bible, have different meanings. Just the word "work" has two different meanings, depending on what it is describing. Note your own proof-text: "Works of the law." Deeds have nothing to do with law.

Can you understand why I dismiss proof-texting? It doesn't mean what you think it means.

When I see a Biblical concept repeated over and over again, I take it very seriously. Justification by faith is not found in just one verse, plucked out to make someone feel good about themselves. It's all throughout the Bible, repeated over and over again, to the point that you don't need any further explanation to grasp it. The worst murderer on death-row has the same access to justification before God that Mother Theresa had. That's the beauty of the Gospel, full justification before God is available to EVERYONE, freely.

Now, deeds are very important, and we are told over and over again to obey God's commands. I therefore take that very seriously as well. So, what does it mean when it says I am justified by faith alone, but my actions have to match what I say? Obviously, I am bound by God to obey His commands, to live a certain way, to exhibit His love and mercy to those around me. In short, to do good deeds. Just as faith without works is dead, so are works without faith. Jesus had a LOT to say to those who tried to do good deeds without faith, the religious leaders of His day.

I think you are hung up on the idea that someone can be justified totally by faith, yet that's what the Scripture tells us. Remember this one from Romans 4?

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

You didn't tell me how you can ignore that.

 

[hadit]

Do all the latest posts here have much to do with the OP?

I don't know.. I don't have time to read them all..

But the original topic is Jesus rejecting people who are attempting to enter Heaven

In Luke, chapter 13, Jesus says that many will attempt to enter, "but will not be able..." (some versions say it differently)

He will turn away many who will claim that they have done great things, even miracles, in His name, but will be rejected because, as He puts it, He never knew them.