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Until you can reconcile Jame 2 with Romans 4:1-5, you're setting up a false conflict that doesn't have to be. When you understand them in the right context, it all becomes clear, faith justifies us before God, and works or deeds are the evidence of that faith.so you disagree with James chapter 2?
figures... totally figures
Anti-Catholic Protestants only accept the scriptures that don't sound too Catholic.. So much for sola scriptura (but the Catholics never taught that rot )
Because you responded angrily to a post I made in response to something another poster had said, as if I had replied to you.Of course not. Why do you ask?
Oh! I see what you mean, and I apologize. Had about three other things going on at the time and obviously got distracted. forkintheroad7 and I sometimes have different perspectives of the Catholic Church.Because you responded angrily to a post I made in response to something another poster had said, as if I had replied to you.
for one thing, I did say otherwise (except that no one gets to Heaven sitting on his lazy ass while the world goes to Hell)Until you can reconcile Jame 2 with Romans 4:1-5, you're setting up a false conflict that doesn't have to be. When you understand them in the right context, it all becomes clear, faith justifies us before God, and works or deeds are the evidence of that faith.
Works do not justify us before God.
GRACE is God's contribution to the Covenant. FAITH is ours.for one thing, I did say otherwise (except that no one gets to Heaven sitting on his lazy ass while the world goes to Hell)
Faith does NOT justify us before God. We are saved by GRACE.
Obviously, you are not actually reading what I write, nor are you reading what the Bible has to say on the subject. Faith is more than mere belief and causes action. If I claim to be in love with my wife but treat her like dirt, I am lying. If, on the other hand, I love my wife, my actions will demonstrate that love. I can be nice (to an extent) to her if I don't love her, but true love will compel me to act in certain ways towards her, and she (as well as observers) can tell the difference."Even the demons believe and tremble." James 2 something, which says Faith without works is dead
(Bold mine)4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
Abraham believed in God through faith, and for this reason he did the works God commanded. What Biblical writings also present are those who believe and do the work(s) God planned for them. Think about this. Who in the Bible believed but did not act/work as God commanded? Anyone? Had Abraham not done the works, he would have joined the ranks of the nameless who believed but did nothing. Faith is nothing without works, and that is because those who do not discern the will of God and follow it clearly haven't even enough faith to follow through with work/acts.I CAN reconcile the two with my view of the Gospel.
Absolutely, faith without works is dead and I will not contradict that. Deathbed conversions, however, show us that faith is what justifies us, not works. The thief on the cross had ONE opportunity to demonstrate his faith, and that was when he asked Jesus to remember him, and that's all it took. Now, if he had been taken down from the cross and returned to a life of crime, denying Jesus, his faith would not have been genuine. If a lifelong sinner requests a priest to hear his deathbed confession, does the priest say, "Sorry, you won't have time to do any good works, so die in your sin"? No, God forbid. He goes, he hears the confession and declares that God has forgiven him. Faith is what justifies us. Works is what we expect to see as evidence of that faith.(Bold mine)
Abraham believed in God through faith, and for this reason he did the works God commanded. What Biblical writings also present are those who believe and do the work(s) God planned for them. Think about this. Who in the Bible believed but did not act/work as God commanded? Anyone? Had Abraham not done the works, he would have joined the ranks of the nameless who believed but did nothing. Faith is nothing without works, and that is because those who do not discern the will of God and follow it clearly haven't even enough faith to follow through with work/acts.
Remember the vineyard workers? Those who went to work in the early morning and those who came late in the day received the same wage. My point is, the thief and deathbed conversions are those who came to work late in the day. Their loss. Not the loss of heaven, but the loss of working with God in his earthly kingdom from morning on.Absolutely, faith without works is dead and I will not contradict that. Deathbed conversions, however, show us that faith is what justifies us, not works. The thief on the cross had ONE opportunity to demonstrate his faith, and that was when he asked Jesus to remember him, and that's all it took. Now, if he had been taken down from the cross and returned to a life of crime, denying Jesus, his faith would not have been genuine. If a lifelong sinner requests a priest to hear his deathbed confession, does the priest say, "Sorry, you won't have time to do any good works, so die in your sin"? No, God forbid. He goes, he hears the confession and declares that God has forgiven him. Faith is what justifies us. Works is what we expect to see as evidence of that faith.
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Is it really that we have a hard time believing that God will accept those we don't think are doing enough, that we feel like we're doing all the heavy lifting? We have to remember the older brother in Jesus' parable of the prodigal son. He stayed home and worked, he was faithful and obedient, he apparently did everything right, and here comes the scoundrel who took half the inheritance and squandered it, crawling home and being celebrated. This is the pitfall of a works-based salvation, we begin thinking of ourselves as the ones who get it, the special ones, the ones God loves more because we're doing the right things. Now remember, I'm not accusing you of espousing that, but others have, and it was to them I was replying.
Yes, we gain from being here on earth with Christ. Paul made it abundantly clear that he was torn between wanting to leave and be with Christ and staying for the sake of the brotherhood. And didn't you tell me that the dead are also working in the Kingdom, which would mean we continue being of value, so there's no loss?Remember the vineyard workers? Those who went to work in the early morning and those who came late in the day received the same wage. My point is, the thief and deathbed conversions are those who came to work late in the day. Their loss. Not the loss of heaven, but the loss of working with God in his earthly kingdom from morning on.
It's harped on because of comments made by posters like forkintheroad7, where he deliberately states that faith does not justify us before God and seeks instead to say that works justify us, as if one can do works without faith and be justified. It is one thing to say that faith without works is dead (biblical) and to act like faith does not justify us (unbiblical).THERE IS NO ONE WHO BELIEVES IN WORK-BASED SALVATION. I can't understand why this is harped on over and over again. And then over and over and over again. And then, over and over and over and over and over once again. The Way of Salvation, opened to all through Jesus' work, includes doing the work God planned for us in advance. Does anyone ever say, "God doesn't want me to do any work at all. He just wants me to be a couch potato so he can wait on me." Is that what salvation is to anyone? God has plans for us and we were given talents to use. How many of these talents will be giving back to him?
That people work for salvation was an error of Martin Luther. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now. Faith and works always went together, one is hopeless without the other. Analogous examples: A pair of scissors; a pair of tweezers. Take either one of them apart and they are useless.It's harped on because of comments made by posters like @forkintheroad7, where he deliberately states that faith does not justify us before God and seeks instead to say that works justify us, as if one can do works without faith and be justified. It is one thing to say that faith without works is dead (biblical) and to act like faith does not justify us (unbiblical).
Then somebody needs to educate those posters who flat out state that faith does not justify us.That people work for salvation was an error of Martin Luther. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now. Faith and works always went together, one is hopeless without the other. Analogous examples: A pair of scissors; a pair of tweezers. Take either one of them apart and they are useless.
(Bold mine, which I'll address first) In Catholic Bible study we hear that we don't remove a verse from the Bible and run with that. We are taught to run with the Bible in its entirety. It is practically useless to throw a verse at me because text taken out of context is a con (or as good as).We do see from Romans 4:5 (I seriously have not seen anyone take on that verse), that to someone who DOES NOT WORK, their faith is credited to them as righteousness. That says to me that while faith and works go together, faith is the foundation. If we have to do without one or the other, we'd better have faith. That tells me that a person who expresses faith on their deathbed is justified, while a person who does good works the last week of their life without faith is not.
I previously posted that verse in context. I also cited the chapter and book it came from. The context makes it clear that Paul is saying absolutely that we are justified by faith.(Bold mine, which I'll address first) In Catholic Bible study we hear that we don't remove a verse from the Bible and run with that. We are taught to run with the Bible in its entirety. It is practically useless to throw a verse at me because text taken out of context is a con (or as good as).
Absolutely. It was Abraham's trust and faith in God that was credited to him for righteousness, just as it is for us, and his actions demonstrated that faith. I've said that many times.In Paul's time, people were of the mind that keeping God's law earned them favor with God. Paul brought up Abraham who lived before the Law. There was no Law so why was Abraham considered righteous and favored in God's sight? It was his belief/faith in God and his trust in God to do what God asked him to do. His faith in God, not any Law that set Abraham in motion to do the work God set before him. No Law told Abraham what to do, it was God himself, and it was Abraham's faith in God that drove Abraham into action.
That is the same thing I have been saying, that works without faith is as dead as faith without works. Doing works in a cynical attempt to justify ourselves to God without also a faith-based relationship with Him gets us only His rejection.All we have to ask ourselves is, "Am I doing this because some law says I must?" Or, "Am I doing something because my faith in God, through Jesus, calls upon me to do it--and I trust God." This is why from the earliest Christianity onward, Catholics and Orthodox faithfully observe all seven sacraments as Jesus taught them.
No, an atheist actively denies the very existence of God, therefore He is not justified, ESPECIALLY if he's heard the Gospel and rejected it. It doesn't matter how "nice" he is or how altruistic or "loving" he is, he's a sinner who refused God's offer of salvation.Here's the deal: You said, "The person who does good works the last week of their life without faith is not (justified)." Is that person doing good works without faith also doing them to earn something? Or, is a person (say an atheist) doing good works all their life doing those good works because that is who they are?
We know from Scripture that we are judged by what we know, and it is Christ's sacrifice that is applied according to God's justice and mercy. I do not claim to know the mind of God, only that He holds ME responsible to what Jesus taught me.Note the Bible also says that God's law (his word) is written on every human heart. God gave them this heart, with his word on it. While an atheist holds no belief in a supreme being, they do hold a belief in goodness--and goodness and love are the very definition of God. Non-believers can be said they have faith in doing what is right and good, and therefore God who is good, loving, and merciful just might see this soul as justified through faith (in what is good, which God wrote on their hearts).
The Bible has more to say than just one verse.I previously posted that verse in context. I also cited the chapter and book it came from. The context makes it clear that Paul is saying absolutely that we are justified by faith.
You are placing limits on God's love?That is the same thing I have been saying, that works without faith is as dead as faith without works. Doing works in a cynical attempt to justify ourselves to God without also a faith-based relationship with Him gets us only His rejection.
That definition is miles off. An atheist does not deny God's existence. An atheist is convinced there is no God to deny.No, an atheist actively denies the very existence of God, therefore He is not justified, ESPECIALLY if he's heard the Gospel and rejected it. It doesn't matter how "nice" he is or how altruistic or "loving" he is, he's a sinner who refused God's offer of salvation.
For example: God is love. God is forgiving. If I can't convince an atheist the realism of God, is the deficiency on the part of the atheist, or on my part?We know from Scripture that we are judged by what we know, and it is Christ's sacrifice that is applied according to God's justice and mercy. I do not claim to know the mind of God, only that He holds ME responsible to what Jesus taught me.
It's far more than one verse, and you are not a Bible scholar if you pretend it is. You're trying to ignore that passage by pretending it's only "one verse". Don't do that.The Bible has more to say than just one verse.
I'm not, Jesus is:You are placing limits on God's love?
