America Founded as a Christian Nation

[ding]

You can’t separate the Christian heritage and culture anymore than you can separate any other country’s heritage and culture from theirs.

I'm not separating- I'm pointing out that nowhere is there a religious sanction of any kind- freedom OF religion.
I also stated, had you bothered to keep up, "of course they were influenced by"- there is still no sanction of a religious sect.

Back in the 1830’s a judged refused to hear the testimony of an atheist, so there kind of was.

 

[ding]

By any objective measure America has been a force for good.

Yeah- especially of you consider Double Standards as "force for good"

Maybe you should do a full accounting rather than only seeing what confirms your bias.

 

[Gdjjr]

Dude, for real, learn how to use the space key and break your posts into paragraphs.

Dude! **** you and the goddamn horse you got here on.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#678 23957168

Those who argue for a secular nation have a major obstacle (actually two IMO after last night.)

When you say “argue for a secular nation” what do you mean?

I argue for freedom of religion and conscience.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#665 Reply 23955619 to #658 23954115

So, it is clear then that your opposition to his conclusion is not based on the facts of the FOunding of the Nation, but on how you see that fact possibly being used by people you don't like to advance agendas you do not agree with. .

Nope. I’m presenting my facts. It’s all based on facts. It is his conclusions that I refuse to accept and here is why:

#658 I think Christianity has moved forward to influencing and serving in a more pluralistic multi cultural society in our 21st Century than the simpler agrarian mono cultural society in the 18th Century that four score later found itself in civil war.”

Nothing about agenda advancement. Where did you get that?

Facts Now: Urban, Multi-Cultural, Industrial, service and entertainment driven culture.

Facts Then: Agrarian, Men were farmers & tradesmen, women homemakers; Mono-Cultural culture

Do you dispute those two facts?

The argument that America was founded as a Christian Nation, with all the historical and legal documentation provided thus far, has not reckoned itself with all the secular/non-Biblical/non-Christian characteristics of American culture on a comparative basis between then and now.

#27 23863201

We also have values that are predicated on something... like the Bible. So, our sense of right and wrong generally coincides with that Book.

Porter Rockwell has made two conclusions on this thread. Unnecessarily (in my opinion) based on the volumes of historical facts that’s been posted; most of which are not disputed.

First, he has concluded in Post #27 and again and again that we get our sense of right and wrong generally from the Holy Bible. And where we generally got our rights and wrongs means America was founded as a Christian Nation.

The second conclusion stipulates that as of 1962 America has lost that Biblical sense of right and wrong and we are no longer a Christian Nation.

I don’t agree with either one and I can explain to you why.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Dude, for real, learn how to use the space key and break your posts into paragraphs.

Dude! **** you and the goddamn horse you got here on.

Same to you.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#678 23957168

Those who argue for a secular nation have a major obstacle (actually two IMO after last night.)

When you say “argue for a secular nation” what do you mean?

I argue for freedom of religion and conscience.

If you had been doing that, you and I would never have clashed.

If you can't find that word "secular" in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, you have NO claim that it is, ever was, or ever intended to be.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#627 23947992 reply to #626

And I think that is entirely the wrong way of looking at it. The people themselves are the ones who did the heavy lifting of making this country great. Their values, their principles, their beliefs and behaviors is what made America good. That’s straight out of de Tocqueville’s observations.

I say, back then, the people peopled and the founders founded.

The founders set up the people’s form of government that cleared the way toward full disestablishment of all religion from the state.

The beliefs and behaviors of the people have nothing to do with the disestablishment of Christian churches from the states or the nation. That’s because the people in their best and religious behavior at the time sent representatives to the legislatures in all thirteen original states with the expectation their leaders should follow the same Federal disestablishment principles to their states.

And they all did. It took awhile because disestablishing a Church from the state is akin to getting a divorce and divvying up the property. It was all new and this has to be figured out.

It’s the people that made the call in the states, not the founders. And every single state eventually took religion out of the states.

Here is a list of all the states and when they did it.

Religion in the Original 13 Colonies - Under God - ProCon.org

Section II. We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.”
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom Jan. 16, 1786

Article XXXVIII. And whereas we are required, by the benevolent principles of the rational liberty, not only to expel civil tyranny, but also to guard against that spiritual oppression and intolerance wherewith the bigotry and ambition of weak and wicked priests and princes have scourged mankind, this convention doth further, in the name and by the authority of the good people of this state, ordain, determine, and desire, that the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall be forever hereafter be allowed, within this state, to all mankind: PROVIDED That the liberty of conscience, hereby granted, shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or justify practices inconsistent with the peace or safety of this state.New York Constitution 1777

“[A]ll religious sects and denominations, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good citizens of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.”
Massachusetts Constitution, Article XI. 1833

All religious requirements were eliminated in the constitution of 1867. Maryland State Constitution 1867

“No religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, under this State.” Delaware Constitution, Article I, Section 2. 1792

Article I. Section 3. The exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination, shall forever be free to all persons in this State, provided that the right hereby declared and established shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or to justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of the State.

Article I. Section 4. No preference shall be given by law to any Christian sect or mode of worship.

Article VII. Section 1. It being the duty of all men to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the Universe, and their right to render that worship in the mode most consistent with the dictates or their consciences, no person shall by law be compelled to join or support, nor be classed with, or associated to, any congregation, church, or religious association; but every person now belonging to such congregation, church, or religious association, shall remain a member thereof until he shall have separated himself therefrom, in the manner hereinafter provided. And each and every society or denomination of Christians in this State shall have and enjoy the same and equal powers, rights, and privileges; and shall have power and authority support and maintain the ministers or teachers of their respective denominations, and to build and repair houses for public worship by a tax on the members of any such society only, to be laid by a major vote of the legal voters assembled at any society meeting, warned and held according to law, or in any other manner.” Connecticut Constitution. 1818

“House of Representatives. Article 14. Amended 1877 deleting requirement that representatives be Protestants.

Senate. Article 29. Amended l877 deleting requirements that senators be Protestant.” New Hampshire Constitution. 1990

Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; and all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness; and whereas a principal object of our venerable ancestors, in their migration to this country and their settlement of this state, was, as they expressed it, to hold forth a lively experiment that a flourishing civil state may stand and be best maintained with full liberty in religious concernments; we, therefore, declare that no person shall be compelled to frequent or to support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatever, except in fulfillment of such person’s voluntary contract; nor enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in body or goods; nor disqualified from holding any office; nor otherwise suffer on account of such person’s religious belief; and that every person shall be free to worship God according to the dictates of such person’s conscience, and to profess and by argument to maintain such person’s opinion in matters of religion; and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect the civil capacity of any person.”
Rhode Island Constitution, Article I, Section 3. 1842

Article IV. Section 10. No person within this state shall, upon any pretense, be deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshipping God in any manner agreeable to his own conscience, nor be compelled to attend any place of worship contrary to his own faith and judgment; nor shall he ever be obliged to pay tithes, taxes, or any other rate, for the building or repairing any place of worship, or for the maintenance of any minister or ministry, contrary to what he believes to be right, or hath voluntarily engaged. To do. No one religious society shall ever be established in this state, in preference to another; nor shall any person be denied the enjoyment of any civil right merely on account of his religious principles.” Georgia Constitution. 1798

All religious references and requirements were eliminated in the constitution of 1875. North Carolina Constitution.

Article VIII, Section 1. The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever hereafter be allowed within this State to all mankind, PROVIDED, That the liberty of conscience thereby declared shall not be construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of this State.” South Carolina Constitution. 1790

“That no person, who acknowledges the being of God and a future state of rewards and punishments, shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this commonwealth.” Pennsylvania Constitution, Article IX, Section 4. 1790

“There shall be no establishment of one religious sect in preference to another; no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust; and no person shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil right merely on account of his religious principles.”

New Jersey Constitution, Rights and Privileges, Article I, Section 4 1844

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#665 Reply 23955619 to #658 23954115

So, it is clear then that your opposition to his conclusion is not based on the facts of the FOunding of the Nation, but on how you see that fact possibly being used by people you don't like to advance agendas you do not agree with. .

Nope. I’m presenting my facts. It’s all based on facts. It is his conclusions that I refuse to accept and here is why:

#658 I think Christianity has moved forward to influencing and serving in a more pluralistic multi cultural society in our 21st Century than the simpler agrarian mono cultural society in the 18th Century that four score later found itself in civil war.”

Nothing about agenda advancement. Where did you get that?

Facts Now: Urban, Multi-Cultural, Industrial, service and entertainment driven culture.

Facts Then: Agrarian, Men were farmers & tradesmen, women homemakers; Mono-Cultural culture

Do you dispute those two facts?

The argument that America was founded as a Christian Nation, with all the historical and legal documentation provided thus far, has not reckoned itself with all the secular/non-Biblical/non-Christian characteristics of American culture on a comparative basis between then and now.

#27 23863201

We also have values that are predicated on something... like the Bible. So, our sense of right and wrong generally coincides with that Book.

Porter Rockwell has made two conclusions on this thread. Unnecessarily (in my opinion) based on the volumes of historical facts that’s been posted; most of which are not disputed.

First, he has concluded in Post #27 and again and again that we get our sense of right and wrong generally from the Holy Bible. And where we generally got our rights and wrongs means America was founded as a Christian Nation.

The second conclusion stipulates that as of 1962 America has lost that Biblical sense of right and wrong and we are no longer a Christian Nation.

I don’t agree with either one and I can explain to you why.

What has happened in America since 1962?

"In a 1969 Gallup poll, only 4% of American adults said they had tried marijuana."

Decades of Drug Use: Data From the '60s and '70s

By 2017:

"More than half of American adults have tried marijuana at least once in their lives, according to the survey. Nearly 55 million of them, or 22 percent, currently use it - the survey defines "current use" as having used marijuana at least once or twice in the past year. Close to 35 million are what the survey calls "regular users," or people who use marijuana at least once or twice a month."

https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article145681414.html

"After decades of stability from the 1920s to the early 1970s, the rate of imprisonment in the United States more than quadrupled during the last four decades."

https://www.nap.edu/read/18613/chapter/4

1973 - abortion was made legal

Life expectancy has declined; children are less affluent today than their parents. Check the stats and when that generation was starting to get into the workforce and become of the age of majority... since the 1960s.

I could make this post 50 or so paragraphs, but since the 1960s, we have been on a downward trend in every decade with respect to every measurable metric associated with progress.

You're welcome to presume I'm trying to prove one thing or the other, but I'm presenting the facts. The facts are, since we were founded as a Christian nation (according to the definitions I gave since I started the thread), the country progressed in EVERY decade until after the 1960s. In 1962, the United States Supreme Court began ruling against the Constitution as it was originally written and intended and in every year, with secular humanism being the policy of the federal government, we have come closer to being a third world cesspool.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#627 23947992 reply to #626

And I think that is entirely the wrong way of looking at it. The people themselves are the ones who did the heavy lifting of making this country great. Their values, their principles, their beliefs and behaviors is what made America good. That’s straight out of de Tocqueville’s observations.

I say, back then, the people peopled and the founders founded.

The founders set up the people’s form of government that cleared the way toward full disestablishment of all religion from the state.

The beliefs and behaviors of the people have nothing to do with the disestablishment of Christian churches from the states or the nation. That’s because the people in their best and religious behavior at the time sent representatives to the legislatures in all thirteen original states with the expectation their leaders should follow the same Federal disestablishment principles to their states.

And they all did. It took awhile because disestablishing a Church from the state is akin to getting a divorce and divvying up the property. It was all new and this has to be figured out.

It’s the people that made the call in the states, not the founders. And every single state eventually took religion out of the states.

Here is a list of all the states and when they did it.

Religion in the Original 13 Colonies - Under God - ProCon.org

Section II. We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.”
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom Jan. 16, 1786

Article XXXVIII. And whereas we are required, by the benevolent principles of the rational liberty, not only to expel civil tyranny, but also to guard against that spiritual oppression and intolerance wherewith the bigotry and ambition of weak and wicked priests and princes have scourged mankind, this convention doth further, in the name and by the authority of the good people of this state, ordain, determine, and desire, that the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall be forever hereafter be allowed, within this state, to all mankind: PROVIDED That the liberty of conscience, hereby granted, shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or justify practices inconsistent with the peace or safety of this state.New York Constitution 1777

“[A]ll religious sects and denominations, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good citizens of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.”
Massachusetts Constitution, Article XI. 1833

All religious requirements were eliminated in the constitution of 1867. Maryland State Constitution 1867

“No religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, under this State.” Delaware Constitution, Article I, Section 2. 1792

Article I. Section 3. The exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination, shall forever be free to all persons in this State, provided that the right hereby declared and established shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or to justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of the State.

Article I. Section 4. No preference shall be given by law to any Christian sect or mode of worship.

Article VII. Section 1. It being the duty of all men to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the Universe, and their right to render that worship in the mode most consistent with the dictates or their consciences, no person shall by law be compelled to join or support, nor be classed with, or associated to, any congregation, church, or religious association; but every person now belonging to such congregation, church, or religious association, shall remain a member thereof until he shall have separated himself therefrom, in the manner hereinafter provided. And each and every society or denomination of Christians in this State shall have and enjoy the same and equal powers, rights, and privileges; and shall have power and authority support and maintain the ministers or teachers of their respective denominations, and to build and repair houses for public worship by a tax on the members of any such society only, to be laid by a major vote of the legal voters assembled at any society meeting, warned and held according to law, or in any other manner.” Connecticut Constitution. 1818

“House of Representatives. Article 14. Amended 1877 deleting requirement that representatives be Protestants.

Senate. Article 29. Amended l877 deleting requirements that senators be Protestant.” New Hampshire Constitution. 1990

Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; and all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness; and whereas a principal object of our venerable ancestors, in their migration to this country and their settlement of this state, was, as they expressed it, to hold forth a lively experiment that a flourishing civil state may stand and be best maintained with full liberty in religious concernments; we, therefore, declare that no person shall be compelled to frequent or to support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatever, except in fulfillment of such person’s voluntary contract; nor enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in body or goods; nor disqualified from holding any office; nor otherwise suffer on account of such person’s religious belief; and that every person shall be free to worship God according to the dictates of such person’s conscience, and to profess and by argument to maintain such person’s opinion in matters of religion; and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect the civil capacity of any person.”
Rhode Island Constitution, Article I, Section 3. 1842

Article IV. Section 10. No person within this state shall, upon any pretense, be deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshipping God in any manner agreeable to his own conscience, nor be compelled to attend any place of worship contrary to his own faith and judgment; nor shall he ever be obliged to pay tithes, taxes, or any other rate, for the building or repairing any place of worship, or for the maintenance of any minister or ministry, contrary to what he believes to be right, or hath voluntarily engaged. To do. No one religious society shall ever be established in this state, in preference to another; nor shall any person be denied the enjoyment of any civil right merely on account of his religious principles.” Georgia Constitution. 1798

All religious references and requirements were eliminated in the constitution of 1875. North Carolina Constitution.

Article VIII, Section 1. The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever hereafter be allowed within this State to all mankind, PROVIDED, That the liberty of conscience thereby declared shall not be construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of this State.” South Carolina Constitution. 1790

“That no person, who acknowledges the being of God and a future state of rewards and punishments, shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this commonwealth.” Pennsylvania Constitution, Article IX, Section 4. 1790

“There shall be no establishment of one religious sect in preference to another; no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust; and no person shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil right merely on account of his religious principles.”

New Jersey Constitution, Rights and Privileges, Article I, Section 4 1844

#627 23947992 reply to #626

And I think that is entirely the wrong way of looking at it. The people themselves are the ones who did the heavy lifting of making this country great. Their values, their principles, their beliefs and behaviors is what made America good. That’s straight out of de Tocqueville’s observations.

I say, back then, the people peopled and the founders founded.

The founders set up the people’s form of government that cleared the way toward full disestablishment of all religion from the state.

The beliefs and behaviors of the people have nothing to do with the disestablishment of Christian churches from the states or the nation. That’s because the people in their best and religious behavior at the time sent representatives to the legislatures in all thirteen original states with the expectation their leaders should follow the same Federal disestablishment principles to their states.

And they all did. It took awhile because disestablishing a Church from the state is akin to getting a divorce and divvying up the property. It was all new and this has to be figured out.

It’s the people that made the call in the states, not the founders. And every single state eventually took religion out of the states.

Here is a list of all the states and when they did it.

Religion in the Original 13 Colonies - Under God - ProCon.org

Section II. We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.”
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom Jan. 16, 1786

Article XXXVIII. And whereas we are required, by the benevolent principles of the rational liberty, not only to expel civil tyranny, but also to guard against that spiritual oppression and intolerance wherewith the bigotry and ambition of weak and wicked priests and princes have scourged mankind, this convention doth further, in the name and by the authority of the good people of this state, ordain, determine, and desire, that the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall be forever hereafter be allowed, within this state, to all mankind: PROVIDED That the liberty of conscience, hereby granted, shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or justify practices inconsistent with the peace or safety of this state.New York Constitution 1777

“[A]ll religious sects and denominations, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good citizens of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.”
Massachusetts Constitution, Article XI. 1833

All religious requirements were eliminated in the constitution of 1867. Maryland State Constitution 1867

“No religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, under this State.” Delaware Constitution, Article I, Section 2. 1792

Article I. Section 3. The exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination, shall forever be free to all persons in this State, provided that the right hereby declared and established shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or to justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of the State.

Article I. Section 4. No preference shall be given by law to any Christian sect or mode of worship.

Article VII. Section 1. It being the duty of all men to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the Universe, and their right to render that worship in the mode most consistent with the dictates or their consciences, no person shall by law be compelled to join or support, nor be classed with, or associated to, any congregation, church, or religious association; but every person now belonging to such congregation, church, or religious association, shall remain a member thereof until he shall have separated himself therefrom, in the manner hereinafter provided. And each and every society or denomination of Christians in this State shall have and enjoy the same and equal powers, rights, and privileges; and shall have power and authority support and maintain the ministers or teachers of their respective denominations, and to build and repair houses for public worship by a tax on the members of any such society only, to be laid by a major vote of the legal voters assembled at any society meeting, warned and held according to law, or in any other manner.” Connecticut Constitution. 1818

“House of Representatives. Article 14. Amended 1877 deleting requirement that representatives be Protestants.

Senate. Article 29. Amended l877 deleting requirements that senators be Protestant.” New Hampshire Constitution. 1990

Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; and all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness; and whereas a principal object of our venerable ancestors, in their migration to this country and their settlement of this state, was, as they expressed it, to hold forth a lively experiment that a flourishing civil state may stand and be best maintained with full liberty in religious concernments; we, therefore, declare that no person shall be compelled to frequent or to support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatever, except in fulfillment of such person’s voluntary contract; nor enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in body or goods; nor disqualified from holding any office; nor otherwise suffer on account of such person’s religious belief; and that every person shall be free to worship God according to the dictates of such person’s conscience, and to profess and by argument to maintain such person’s opinion in matters of religion; and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect the civil capacity of any person.”
Rhode Island Constitution, Article I, Section 3. 1842

Article IV. Section 10. No person within this state shall, upon any pretense, be deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshipping God in any manner agreeable to his own conscience, nor be compelled to attend any place of worship contrary to his own faith and judgment; nor shall he ever be obliged to pay tithes, taxes, or any other rate, for the building or repairing any place of worship, or for the maintenance of any minister or ministry, contrary to what he believes to be right, or hath voluntarily engaged. To do. No one religious society shall ever be established in this state, in preference to another; nor shall any person be denied the enjoyment of any civil right merely on account of his religious principles.” Georgia Constitution. 1798

All religious references and requirements were eliminated in the constitution of 1875. North Carolina Constitution.

Article VIII, Section 1. The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever hereafter be allowed within this State to all mankind, PROVIDED, That the liberty of conscience thereby declared shall not be construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of this State.” South Carolina Constitution. 1790

“That no person, who acknowledges the being of God and a future state of rewards and punishments, shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this commonwealth.” Pennsylvania Constitution, Article IX, Section 4. 1790

“There shall be no establishment of one religious sect in preference to another; no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust; and no person shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil right merely on account of his religious principles.”

New Jersey Constitution, Rights and Privileges, Article I, Section 4 1844

And yet your own citations doth testify against you. Let me dissect the first one for you:

"Section II. We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.”
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom Jan. 16, 1786

With the exception of highlighting some of the section, that is a verbatim quote you just used to substantiate your claim. Now, I'd like to cite something in response:

"Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

The writer here says that nobody has a "right" in opposition to social duties. The above quote comes from the same writer I will now quote in a letter he wrote at a different time (and both times, the writer was talking about education):

"But if it is believed that these elementary schools will be better managed by…[any] general authority of the government, than by the parents within each ward, it is a belief against all experience.… No, my friend, the way to have good and safe government, is not to trust it all to one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to every one exactly the functions he is competent to."

Thomas Jefferson, The First Advocate for Education Reform

In other words, this man, in both instances was saying that the federal government has NO business in education. It is a civic duty and a social responsibility. And your citation states that the government of Virginia :

shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their (the peoples) civil capacities.”

Translation: in many areas that were above the law and government had no business, Virginia guaranteed that they would not interfere with those civil capacities. Education was one I simply pointed out as being consistent with what the writer I quoted stated. The reason I chose that author is due to the fact that he is the only founder you think has any credibility... Thomas Jefferson. The first quote came from his oft misapplied letter to the Danbury Baptists about a "separation of church and state."

Please read your own citations and don't make me pick them apart for you one by one.

 

[rightwinger]

Our founders hated Christians. They thought they were pretentious and petty. That is why they didn’t make us a Christian nation

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Our founders hated Christians. They thought they were pretentious and petty. That is why they didn’t make us a Christian nation

You know, such idiotic wastes of bandwidth (that have been refuted dozens of times on this thread) are not worthy of a response. All I can say is that if anybody is stupid enough to believe you, they should sue their brains for non-support. If you want the proof, READ THE THREAD.

 

[deorro 1]

Our founders hated Christians. They thought they were pretentious and petty. That is why they didn’t make us a Christian nation

You know, such idiotic wastes of bandwidth (that have been refuted dozens of times on this thread) are not worthy of a response. All I can say is that if anybody is stupid enough to believe you, they should sue their brains for non-support. If you want the proof, READ THE THREAD.

Past, present or future tense?

That common 'line'. Relax, don't be so tense. It's a 'male/mate' thing.


It takes 1 to commit sin. It takes another 1 to not correct it.

This is 1 reason why females are afraid to yell out 'rape' when it occurs. Fear of the 'male/mate' thing.

 

[deorro 1]

Our founders hated Christians. They thought they were pretentious and petty. That is why they didn’t make us a Christian nation

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Our founders hated Christians. They thought they were pretentious and petty. That is why they didn’t make us a Christian nation

You know, such idiotic wastes of bandwidth (that have been refuted dozens of times on this thread) are not worthy of a response. All I can say is that if anybody is stupid enough to believe you, they should sue their brains for non-support. If you want the proof, READ THE THREAD.

Past, present or future tense?

That common 'line'. Relax, don't be so tense. It's a 'male/mate' thing.


It takes 1 to commit sin. It takes another 1 to not correct it.

What does that mean?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Our founders hated Christians. They thought they were pretentious and petty. That is why they didn’t make us a Christian nation

You know, such idiotic wastes of bandwidth (that have been refuted dozens of times on this thread) are not worthy of a response. All I can say is that if anybody is stupid enough to believe you, they should sue their brains for non-support. If you want the proof, READ THE THREAD.

Christians are such assholes....George Washington

Such idiocy is done to derail the thread. It is an example of someone devoid of decency and intelligence. You're as stupid as your avatar.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I want you to have access to some of the major Charters, Compacts, etc. that lead up to our values as a nation. So, I will list some more you can access to see that the colonies were founded on Christian principles consistent with the OP.

You may want to Google The Charter of Maryland of 1632, Grant Of The Province Of New Hampshire To Mr. Mason of 22 April 1635, Fundamental Orders of Connecticut 1638 – 1639, Agreement of the Settlers At Exeter in New Hampshire of 1639Fundamental Agreement Of The Colony Of New Haven june 4, 1639, Grant Of The Province Of Maine 1639, Massachusetts Body Of Liberties 1641, and I will quote some of the others in posts to come along with the language that unequivocally proves that the colonies were all based upon the Bible.

The earliest state constitutions made it clear as well that America was founded as a Christian nation. For example, the Constitution of Connecticut of 1776:

Art. 22. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit:

” I, A B. will bear true allegiance to the Delaware State, submit to its constitution and laws, and do no act wittingly whereby the freedom thereof may be prejudiced.”

And also make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit:

” I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration.”

Similar language will be found in the state constitutions of Delaware (1776), Georgia (1777), Maryland (1776), Constitution or Form of Government for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts (1780), New Hampshire (1784), New Jersey (1776) New York (1777), North Carolina (1776) Pennsylvania (1776), South Carolina (1778) Vermont (1777), and Virginia (1777.) If you want the exact language of any of those state constitutions, let me know which one and I will post the applicable section(s.)

By the time we get to the United States Constitution, the atheists and unbelievers cannot find any Christian influence therein. I mentioned all the aforementioned state constitutions for a reason. ALL of them have sections requiring a person to take an oath in order to hold elective office. Now, let me quote from the Constitution of the United States:

“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.” Article VI Paragraph III of the U.S. Constitution

There is a difference between an oath and a test. A religious test is prohibited. An oath is NOT prohibited and most state constitutions required one to be a Christian in order to hold public office. Feel free to Google any of the above earliest state constitutions to verify that. I will do more posts a little later showing you Christian principles in the Constitution and debunking the critics most oft used ruses

 

[Correll]

#665 Reply 23955619 to #658 23954115

So, it is clear then that your opposition to his conclusion is not based on the facts of the FOunding of the Nation, but on how you see that fact possibly being used by people you don't like to advance agendas you do not agree with. .

Nope. I’m presenting my facts. It’s all based on facts. It is his conclusions that I refuse to accept and here is why:

#658 I think Christianity has moved forward to influencing and serving in a more pluralistic multi cultural society in our 21st Century than the simpler agrarian mono cultural society in the 18th Century that four score later found itself in civil war.”

Nothing about agenda advancement. Where did you get that?

Facts Now: Urban, Multi-Cultural, Industrial, service and entertainment driven culture.

Facts Then: Agrarian, Men were farmers & tradesmen, women homemakers; Mono-Cultural culture

Do you dispute those two facts?

The argument that America was founded as a Christian Nation, with all the historical and legal documentation provided thus far, has not reckoned itself with all the secular/non-Biblical/non-Christian characteristics of American culture on a comparative basis between then and now.
.....

Here is the deal, W. The distinction you are drawing there, is not credible.



This/these issues are going to be raised more and more by Rockwell and/or people like him, and if you lefties cannot refute what he says, or at least seriously challenge it, you will empower him.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#690 23965334

Please read your own citations and don't make me pick them apart for you one by one.

You have not picked them apart. Since the point of posting the removal of Christianity from all 13 State Constitutions shows that the mood of the first couple generations of Americans sent representatives to their state lawmakers that ended up matching the federal design of separation of Church and state.

Are you now suggesting a thread title change to America was Founded as a Publically Educated Nation.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#698 23967003 reply to #658..

Here is the deal, W. The distinction you are drawing there, is not credible.

.

What distinction are you referring to?