America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Correll]

#698 23967003 reply to #658..

Here is the deal, W. The distinction you are drawing there, is not credible.

.

What distinction are you referring to?

The goofy quibbling you are doing, trying to admit that the nation was founded by Christians, for Christians, ect ect ect, but still somehow not a "Christian nation" because of "blah, blah, blah".



The challenge you people will be facing from people like Rockwell, will not be silenced by games like that. You will need far more seriously answers to his questions.


Or you end up making him look like the answer.

 

[rightwinger]

If being founded by Christians makes us a Christian nation, then being founded by white males makes us a White, Male nation

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#697 23965725.

I want you to have access to some of the major Charters, Compacts, etc. that lead up to our values as a nation. So, I will list some more you can access to see that the colonies were founded on Christian principles consistent with the OP.

The Colonies were indeed founded as Protestant Christian colonies. Those colonies became states under the US Constitution and severed all ties to the religion they were founded upon.

While it is true that the Colonies were founded Under Christian charters by order of the King of England. The colonies severed ties to the King and they severed all ties to the churches and religion that they were originally founded upon.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#701 23967300

The goofy quibbling you are doing, trying to admit that the nation was founded by Christians, for Christians, ect ect ect, but still somehow not a "Christian nation" because of "blah, blah, blah".

.


I have not ‘admitted’ the nation was founded by Christians. I fully agree with the fact that Christians were involved in the founding both as Founding Fathers and as the citizens who were alive at the time of the founding.


But the actual founding as stipulated under the Constitution was that the nation was not established and tied to any religion. And following the framing of our Constitution all the states disestablished, disentangled the states from religion.


Thus the fact of disestablishment of churches from every state Constitution makes it clear that America was not founded as a Christian nation. Crystal clear.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#690 23965334

Please read your own citations and don't make me pick them apart for you one by one.

You have not picked them apart. Since the point of posting the removal of Christianity from all 13 State Constitutions shows that the mood of the first couple generations of Americans sent representatives to their state lawmakers that ended up matching the federal design of separation of Church and state.

Are you now suggesting a thread title change to America was Founded as a Publically Educated Nation.

BEFORE, DURING, AND AFTER THE FOUNDING OF THIS NATION, THE STATE CONSTITUTIONS ALL ACKNOWLEDGED CHRISTIANITY.

What happened afterward is irrelevant. The founding was over. The federal government, in the Constitution upheld whatever the states had put into their constitutions. A fifth grader ought to be able to understand this stuff, but not you.

The First Amendment begins with these words:

CONGRESS shall make no law... Congress shall make no law... That is the federal Congress shall make no law That is in contradistinction to we, the people AND the individual states.

Whatever was in the common law of England that our founders brought here was based on Christianity. According to one article:

"So just as our English language has sprung from AngloSaxon, Teutonic, French, Latin and Greek roots, our English common law with its unsurpassed powers of assimilation, elimination and expansion, has its origins in old local customs, the civil law, the canon law of the Church, the writings of philosophers and texts of Scripture, interwoven with the accumulation of a thousand years of statutes and judicial decisions"

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7211&context=penn_law_review

From their view, basing our legal decisions on the English common law did not and has not constituted the establishment of a religion. It is the establishment of certain principles of law.NOT a religion. Christianity became a part of our culture - the primary part upon which the Republic was built. The culture and the government are different.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#697 23965725.

I want you to have access to some of the major Charters, Compacts, etc. that lead up to our values as a nation. So, I will list some more you can access to see that the colonies were founded on Christian principles consistent with the OP.

The Colonies were indeed founded as Protestant Christian colonies. Those colonies became states under the US Constitution and severed all ties to the religion they were founded upon.

While it is true that the Colonies were founded Under Christian charters by order of the King of England. The colonies severed ties to the King and they severed all ties to the churches and religion that they were originally founded upon.

No, the colonies DID NOT sever any Christian ties under the United States Constitution.. We've been through this at least a dozen times.

NOBODY can be this clueless. One more time, from the United States Supreme Court:

"Coming nearer to the present time, the declaration of independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that thet are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.' 'We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare,' etc.; 'And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.'

If we examine the constitutions of the various states, we find in them a constant recognition of religious obligations. Every constitution of every one of the 44 states contains language which, either directly or by clear implication, recognizes a profound reverence for religion, and an assumption that its influence in all human affairs is essential to the well-being of the community. This recognition may be in the preamble, such as is found in the constitution of Illinois, 1870: 'We, the people of the state of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations,' etc.

It may be only in the familiar requisition that all officers shall take an oath closing with the declaration, 'so help me God.'..." Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457 (1892)

RECTOR, ETC., OF HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. UNITED STATES. | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

Constitution was ratified in 1787 and the Bill of Rights a couple of years later. Christian laws were still on the books over a half a century AFTER EVERY FOUNDER WAS DEAD AND BURIED... AND THEY WERE STILL ON THE BOOKS WELL INTO THE 1900s.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

1870: 'We, the people of the state of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations,' etc.

Did Illinois ever have a State Religion?

The first Thirteen did and every single one eventually disestablished their churches in order to match el the separation of church and state to match the US CONSTITUTION.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

No, the colonies DID NOT sever any Christian ties under the United States Constitution..


You may think the disestablishment era that followed the ratification of the Constitution was not ‘severing of ties’ but no one should pay attention to you and your agenda for that reason alone.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#709 23968536 Question for Pro-Christian Nation Camp.

When all thirteen colonies had state religions were they thirteen mini theocracies?

 

[Correll]

If being founded by Christians makes us a Christian nation, then being founded by white males makes us a White, Male nation

And the blind squirrel trips over a nut.

 

[Correll]

#701 23967300

The goofy quibbling you are doing, trying to admit that the nation was founded by Christians, for Christians, ect ect ect, but still somehow not a "Christian nation" because of "blah, blah, blah".

.


I have not ‘admitted’ the nation was founded by Christians. I fully agree with the fact that Christians were involved in the founding both as Founding Fathers and as the citizens who were alive at the time of the founding.


But the actual founding as stipulated under the Constitution was that the nation was not established and tied to any religion. And following the framing of our Constitution all the states disestablished, disentangled the states from religion.


Thus the fact of disestablishment of churches from every state Constitution makes it clear that America was not founded as a Christian nation. Crystal clear.

We've gone over the distinction between Nation and Government.


If that is all you have, you have and will lose this debate against Rockwell and his ilk.


People will see and hear the public debate, and you libs will make Rockwell and his side, look like the only reasonable answer to your side.


YOu need to do better. This thread has been very disappointing.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

1870: 'We, the people of the state of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations,' etc.

Did Illinois ever have a State Religion?

The first Thirteen did and every single one eventually disestablished their churches in order to match el the separation of church and state to match the US CONSTITUTION.

No, nobody "disestablished" any churches. Until 1962 the people of every state in the union were free to practice religion and in the civil realm, Christianity was still being taught. You believe in some kind of weird revisionist history not supported by any facts.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

As long as this thread is, all the valid points have been discussed more than once. Let's do a summation of the facts:

1) Every person that signed the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation and / or Constitution had a connection to Christianity and virtually all of them have been documented to have been practicing Christians when they signed the respective aforementioned documents

2) At the time of the ratification of the Constitution of the United States, over 98 percent of the Americans had a Bible in their homes

3) In the Preamble of the Constitution, we find the following words:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America..."

In general, America was a white, Christian people. The "Posterity" (and oddly they capitalized that word in the Constitution) referred to a specific people. They were Christians and / or men who had accepted the principles upon which the Republic rests.

During the Constitutional Convention, one of those present gave a speech and I'd like to quote a part of it:

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that “except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments be Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move, that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of the City be requested to officiate in that service."
Franklin’s Appeal for Prayer at the Constitutional Convention - WallBuilders


That was delivered by Benjamin Franklin (which calls into question his alleged "deism."

More to come

 

[Porter Rockwell]

To continue on with what I said as a summation of this thread:

4) BEFORE, DURING and for many years AFTER the ratification of the United States Constitution (until about 1840), children were being taught from Christian textbooks

The New-England Primer | textbook

Note: By that time EVERY signer of the Constitution had passed away, the youngest having been 26 when the Constitution was ratified.

5) We have acknowledged the most authoritative piece of evidence in showing that America was founded as a Christian nation from the United States Supreme Court wherein their rulings are the final say on the law (Google Marbury v. Madison if you are unfamiliar with this.) Here is the best summation of our Christian heritage:

RECTOR, ETC., OF HOLY TRINITY CHURCH v. UNITED STATES. | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

6) Our legal system has established the fact that our history and culture made us a Christian nation:

Supreme Court Declares America a Christian Nation

Is America a Christian Nation? - WallBuilders

The United States a Christian Nation

Despite all the facts, critics come here with the hopes of disproving my original thesis. Despite the fact that when the Constitution was ratified, all the state constitutions - not to mention their customs, practices, schools, and public institutions were pro-Christian and many times only Christians could hold public office, the critics declare we are a secular nation.

These people base their opinion on the idea that no statute refers to us as a Christian nation. Rather, they rely on the wording of a treaty that was designed to allay the fears of a theocracy by the Muslims AND that treaty was challenged, scrapped, and another put in its place. The other, of course is Thomas Jefferson's private letter, mentioning a separation of church and state - which means 180 degrees opposite of what my critics here have argued.

No statute has ever referred to the United States as having been founded as a secular nation. The only United States Supreme Court decisions have always come down on the side of a Christian nation. That does not mean we are a theocracy. You don't have to join a church, believe, pray, pay tithes, honor God, and Christians cannot discriminate against you. We do not need an official document from any government to declare us to be who we are. OTOH, the government has admitted that we are a Christian nation. So, if we are not a secular nation, but a Christian one (by law), what does it mean?

I'll do separate posts to define, exactly what we mean as a Christian nation. I don't care what the critics say. By their own admission, Christians are (in theory) the majority so playing by the Democrats rules, majority wins. Relying on the First Amendment, we have Freedom OF Religion, so Christians are free to offer up their definition of what a Christian nation consists of.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

1870: 'We, the people of the state of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations,' etc.

Did Illinois ever have a State Religion?

The first Thirteen did and every single one eventually disestablished their churches in order to match el the separation of church and state to match the US CONSTITUTION.

No, nobody "disestablished" any churches. Until 1962 the people of every state in the union were free to practice religion and in the civil realm, Christianity was still being taught. You believe in some kind of weird revisionist history not supported by any facts.

That’s some winner.


By the early 1830s, all states—the original thirteen colonies and new states admitted after independence—were formally disestablished via constitutional provision. States admitted thereafter included such provisions in their initial constitutions.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/abfe/1b5cad94e97aa45a09c4f6781cdf851c10f5.pdf

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#701 23967300

The goofy quibbling you are doing, trying to admit that the nation was founded by Christians, for Christians, ect ect ect, but still somehow not a "Christian nation" because of "blah, blah, blah".

.


I have not ‘admitted’ the nation was founded by Christians. I fully agree with the fact that Christians were involved in the founding both as Founding Fathers and as the citizens who were alive at the time of the founding.


But the actual founding as stipulated under the Constitution was that the nation was not established and tied to any religion. And following the framing of our Constitution all the states disestablished, disentangled the states from religion.


Thus the fact of disestablishment of churches from every state Constitution makes it clear that America was not founded as a Christian nation. Crystal clear.

We've gone over the distinction between Nation and Government.


If that is all you have, you have and will lose this debate against Rockwell and his ilk.


People will see and hear the public debate, and you libs will make Rockwell and his side, look like the only reasonable answer to your side.


YOu need to do better. This thread has been very disappointing.

Rockwell has two admirers here.

 

[rightwinger]

As long as this thread is, all the valid points have been discussed more than once. Let's do a summation of the facts:

1) Every person that signed the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation and / or Constitution had a connection to Christianity and virtually all of them have been documented to have been practicing Christians when they signed the respective aforementioned documents

2) At the time of the ratification of the Constitution of the United States, over 98 percent of the Americans had a Bible in their homes

3) In the Preamble of the Constitution, we find the following words:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America..."

In general, America was a white, Christian people. The "Posterity" (and oddly they capitalized that word in the Constitution) referred to a specific people. They were Christians and / or men who had accepted the principles upon which the Republic rests.

During the Constitutional Convention, one of those present gave a speech and I'd like to quote a part of it:

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that “except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments be Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move, that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of the City be requested to officiate in that service."
Franklin’s Appeal for Prayer at the Constitutional Convention - WallBuilders


That was delivered by Benjamin Franklin (which calls into question his alleged "deism."

More to come

Wow
All that and they managed to avoid mentioning God in the Constitution and specifically forbid government from establishing a religion

 

[whutTHEYsay]

civil war not so civil

#665 23955619.

. To be extra clear, the way you keep bringing up that the nation had a civil war, is highly indicative of thinking that is not based on the historical events of the time, but moral judgment of the people involved.

Porter Rockwell has passed a major moral judgement that America is not a Christian Nation anymore. Perhaps he has you convinced that IF Christians were a majority today, there would be a much more civil tone among the people. Get it, he says we will get more civil tone if we went back to Bible Believin’ like we had in the 1780’s. That white, male dominated, Protestant Christian culture according to Rockwell.

I say, if a man has such poor judgement regarding the period amongst the living, why must anyone trust his judgement on what it was like 250 years ago.

Let me give you some background to think about. Religiosity was in steady decline prior to the Revolution and for a couple of decades after. Specifically among the settlers westward. But also in the cities.

• “On a trip to Tennessee in 1794, Methodist bishop Francis Asbury wrote anxiously about frontier settlers, “When I reflect that not one in a hundred came here to get religion, but rather to get plenty of good land, I think it will be well if some or many do not eventually lose their souls.” Cane Ridge Kentucky Revival Revival at Cane Ridge | Christian History Magazine

That is from the Christian History Institute. Why would they lie.

It was more about land - setting up an agrarian culture than religion it seems

So the period between the writing of the Constitution and the Civil War has been identified as experiencing the Second Great Awakening.

It was called an awakening because Christianity had fallen asleep or at least dozed off when America went through an enlightenment phase like the rest of Europe.

I find it difficult to believe that more than half of Colonial males were Christian when I see a record such as this:

Civil war following the Second Great Awakening:

• At the height of the war, delegations of concerned clergymen received high-profile audiences with the President; the National Reform Association moved an amendment to the Constitution to add formal recognition of Christianity to its preamble; the military chaplaincy was dramatically expanded as a major component of the U.S. armed forces; and “fully one-third of all soldiers in the field were praying men and members of some branch of the Christian Church,” and religious revivals in the armies converted between 5 and 10 percent of men in uniform.
• ALLEN GUELZO is a professor at Gettysburg College.

If only one third of Yankee soldiers during the Civil War were praying members of a Christian Church, after half a century of the most amazing growth of Christianity in North American history, I find it very difficult to believe that more than half the soldiers that fought in the Continental Army in 1775 were indeed Christian.

That plus Porter Rockwell skipping over the most uncivil war, presumably between the best kind of Christians killing the best kind of Christians, as if it never happened, and saying he thinks we are most uncivil today, snd its all the fault of secular humanists and atheists, is one of the most absurd ideas on the subject of Religion in America ever made.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

America - a Christian Nation... what do we mean?

Honestly, this will be the most difficult posting that I've ever tried in my life. Bear with me because in order to fully understand every facet of what I'm saying, you would have to know a LOT about history. I know a good deal, but not good enough to explain this in a single thread. But, let me try to summarize a lot of complex history and facts.

The Protestant Reformation, which began in the early 16th Century, ended the Roman Catholic Church’s control over learning and Christian theology. The Reformation’s rejection of Scholasticism revitalized interest in science, but its emphasis on the Bible as the core of Christian theology turned the study of Natural History into Natural Theology, which saw the hand of God in every aspect of nature.

Somewhere around 1648, the Protestant Reformation was winding down and the next major change in history would begin in about 1715 with the Enlightenment. Though I don't agree with every point the author in the link I'm going to post, I think he summarizes this pretty well:

lifeissues.net | The Reformation and the Enlightenment: From Revolt to Paganism

The Protestant Reformation was still in its active stage when colonists began coming to the New World to escape religious persecution and tyranny. I began this thread with a sermon by John Winthrop, delivered in 1630. After more than 700 + posts on this thread, NOT ONE CRITIC has responded to the first post - which is the topic of this thread. And here is the thing: That sermon was being quoted by politicians and statesmen all the way up to (and not limited to) JFK and Ronald Reagan in their capacity as presidents. In over 300 years, at the end of the day, the goals and objectives that Winthrop articulated were being embraced by Democrats and Republicans. One more try to get everyone on board:

https://www.casa-arts.org/cms/lib/PA01925203/Centricity/Domain/50/A Model of Christian Charity.pdf

I'd like to quote something from my first link (I'll even leave the link again for you):

"Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed immaturity. Immaturity is the inability to use one’s understanding without guidance from another. This immaturity is self-imposed when its cause lies not in lack of understanding, but in lack of resolve and courage to use it without guidance from another. Sapere Aude! [dare to know] “Have courage to use your own understanding!”--that is the motto of enlightenment.6 According to this definition, there is no need for Divine assistance to act virtuously, one simply needs to tap into an inner resource.

lifeissues.net | The Reformation and the Enlightenment: From Revolt to Paganism

Think about that while I do a second part to this

 

[Porter Rockwell]

America - a Christian Nation... what do we mean? Part 2

By 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was penned, you had:

* The Illuminati working through the Masons with their political agenda

* The Enlightenment was going on

* The colonists, particularly Protestants were adjusting to their new found concepts of the Bible, having rejected Papal Supremacy

* There loomed an uneasy relationship between Protestants and Christians

* All kind of political agendas being thrown at our country and many outsiders using their money to try and control our destiny

Today, everybody wants to claim their group had some influence into the formation of our Republic. While that may be true to some extent, the facts cannot be denied:

* Everything I posted in the first part of this posting (Part 1) is true

* From the Constitutional Convention came the form of government that relied on the English Common Law to interpret and apply statutes and that is based on Christianity

* Practicing Christians were the overwhelming majority - which is admitted by even those groups of people who want it acknowledged that they participated in the founding of this country.

* The Bill of Rights codified those unalienable Rights and America is the ONLY country that guarantees Rights that were presupposed to be given by a Creator that are above the law.

* The meaning of the law is interpreted through the Common Law and, generally speaking, the interpretations are consistent with a Christian point of view as opposed to a secular point of view.

Unalienable Rights were supposed to be above the law and not subject to alienation. So, under our Constitution we should not have to worry about unconstitutional taxation, burdensome government agencies, violations / infringements of the guaranteed Rights in the Bill of Rights, and the imposition of customs, practices, and limitations on our Rights.

Majoritarians would find it extremely difficult to impose their will because in order to change our moral compass or alter the nation as a whole would require an amendment to the Constitution. Once the United States Supreme Court ruled on a point of law, that was the law. We screwed up by allowing the high Court to legislate from the bench by reinterpreting their own rulings. If the people were dissatisfied with the law, their proper course was via amendment. But back to my original point:

With our system of jurisprudence, we interpret the law according to standing precedents. We are not a Democracy. So, when the law is applied, generally speaking, it is done with an understanding of biblical precedents / principles.

We are not "secular" because we could not allow foreign customs like cannibalism, Female Genitalia Mutilation, cutting off body parts as punishment for a crime, killing babies after they are born, and many other practices that are done in various parts of the world. We cannot do it because our laws were interpreted under the Common Law to prevent it. It would take a constitutional amendment to allow such practices and that wouldn't even happen today because there are enough professing Christians to stop such an amendment.

Unfortunately, this is taking more paragraphs than I anticipated...


.