Zone1 Alpha Male vs a Real Man... Are They the Same Thing?

[buttercup]

Alpha men can be cold hearted killers. So can real men. So can Beta simps. So can a woman, whatever that word means. Trying to understand a duality of Alpha vs. something else is an exercise in futility because psychological traits run in a continuum, not as a mutually exclusive duality. Ditto for Good vs. Evil. That is another duality that actually exists as a continuum. What you are asking for is an analysis of the intersection of two disparate continuums.

I should've titled the thread differently. The word versus ("vs") in the title makes it sound like it has to be one or the other, and that's not the case.

Anyway, I wanted to bring up this discussion because it seems that some people put the whole idea of "alpha males" up on a pedestal....and I just wanted to bring up the point that unless there's something more to mere dominance or confidence, it's not necessarily a good thing. But I think I already made that point more than enough times, so...I don't want to beat a dead horse. It is interesting to hear different views on this. I was hoping to hear from more women, but so far there's only been one or two. Thanks.

 

[westwall]

I should've titled the thread differently. The word versus ("vs") in the title makes it sound like it has to be one or the other, and that's not the case.

Anyway, I wanted to bring up this discussion because it seems that some people put the whole idea of "alpha males" up on a pedestal....and I just wanted to bring up the point that unless there's something more to mere dominance or confidence, it's not necessarily a good thing. But I think I already made that point more than enough times, so...I don't want to beat a dead horse. It is interesting to hear different views on this. I was hoping to hear from more women, but so far there's only been one or two. Thanks.

PEOPLE get placed on pedestals, not "types of people".

 

[buttercup]

PEOPLE get placed on pedestals, not "types of people".

It's true that people get placed on pedestals....but I don't really agree that some types don't too. As Liberty Weeps mentioned on the previous page... a lot of young women tend to be attracted to the "bad boy" type. There could be a lot of reasons for that, but as he said, they often end up realizing later that those guys are all talk, and maybe haven't grown up yet. So when the woman wants to settle down and have a family, she tends to change her mind on the "type".... and looks for someone who is more responsible and has a good work ethic, etc.

 

[westwall]

It's true that people get placed on pedestals....but I don't really agree that some types don't too. As Liberty Weeps mentioned on the previous page... a lot of young women tend to be attracted to the "bad boy" type. There could be a lot of reasons for that, but as he said, they often end up realizing later that those guys are all talk, and maybe haven't grown up yet. So when the woman wants to settle down and have a family, she tends to change her mind on the "type".... and looks for someone who is more responsible and has a good work ethic, etc.

And in general women who do that are failures in life.

I'm going to use a very broad brush to make my point.

Anyone who swoons at any particular stereotype is most likely suffering from some sort of personality disorder.

Over and over you hear about women who choose the wrong sort of man.

That's a problem of the WOMAN, not the stereotype.

 

[buttercup]

And in general women who do that are failures in life.

I'm going to use a very broad brush to make my point.

Anyone who swoons at any particular stereotype is most likely suffering from some sort of personality disorder.

Over and over you hear about women who choose the wrong sort of man.

That's a problem of the WOMAN, not the stereotype.

That was just one example. It was a negative example... but I could've brought up something different, like some people are attracted to extroverts, people who are funny and life of the party. So I think there are certain "types"....or qualities, that some people sort of put on a pedestal. Getting back to why I said the whole idea of "alphas" seems to get put on a pedestal.... that was just my observation, reading threads. I've seen threads where guys talk about "alphas" in a way that seems to me that they think it's cool or admirable. But anyway, it's not that important. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Dorian Mode]

I should've titled the thread differently. The word versus ("vs") in the title makes it sound like it has to be one or the other, and that's not the case.

Anyway, I wanted to bring up this discussion because it seems that some people put the whole idea of "alpha males" up on a pedestal....and I just wanted to bring up the point that unless there's something more to mere dominance or confidence, it's not necessarily a good thing. But I think I already made that point more than enough times, so...I don't want to beat a dead horse. It is interesting to hear different views on this. I was hoping to hear from more women, but so far there's only been one or two. Thanks.

You may have a problem doing research on this forum, because there are a lot of left leaning people here who aren't interested in normal relationships. Most "women" here are probably looking for Alpha Females or are Alpha Females. You may have better luck with the dumocrap "men" here.

 

[Robert W]

I generally don't like to comment on the dynamics of other people's relationships. All couples seem to be unique.

I do subscribe to the notion that there is someone for everyone. . just good luck finding that.

Charles Manson is an example of that.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I don't tend to think in terms of either, myself.

Was Jimmy Stewart any less of a man than John Wayne in their typical roles? I guess if I would say anything, it would be that alpha males are those who most want to dominate, but "real" men can adopt many different roles.

 

[buttercup]

You may have a problem doing research on this forum, because there are a lot of left leaning people here who aren't interested in normal relationships. Most "women" here are probably looking for Alpha Females or are Alpha Females. You may have better luck with the dumocrap "men" here.

lol. I don't think it's quite THAT bad here. Yes there are some who are extreme, but I've also seen some Dem women here who are more moderate in their thinking. Care4All, for example. (But she can correct me if I'm wrong about that). But anyway, like I said, I want to try to get away from the "team sports" mentality on this thread. I just get tired of the constant combativeness and nastiness. I can disagree with someone 1000% yet still see them as a person with value, even if I think they are wrong in their politics or worldview.

 

[Robert W]

Contrast Trump with Carter. Carter was scared to make unpopular decisions and to make his adversaries respect and fear him and it cost him reelection. Since Iran is in play now, who remembers how confident Iran was during Carter and then the sudden change to fear when Reagan took over? They immediately gave back the hostages to not get bombed back to the stone age. Reagan should have taken that momentum and done what Trump just did. Alpha Males command respect and get things done, brutally if necessary. Now if people want a man who will hide even behind a frail "woman" in times of crisis, there are a lot of dumocrap men available for those tasks.

Reagan credited Carter for recovering the hostages. Reagan proved it when he sent Carter to the ME to welcome the hostages back.

 

[buttercup]

Charles Manson is an example of that.

Are you talking about the strange phenomenon of how certain criminals in prison get fan letters from women? Or they get married while they're behind bars? In cases like that, I agree with what Westwall said... it's some sort of psychological disorder.

 

[buttercup]

I don't tend to think in terms of either, myself.

Was Jimmy Stewart any less of a man than John Wayne in their typical roles? I guess if I would say anything, it would be that alpha males are those who most want to dominate, but "real" men can adopt many different roles.

Good point, thanks. And so far it seems that most on this thread see it that way, myself included.

 

[Stryder50]

They were usually the most violent, and they eliminated their rivals. That is indeed true. The same holds true in modern society, from gang leaders to the bosses of the mafia families. In business, many business leaders have used a more subtle approach without violence in rising to the top, and they often have personality traits that are undesirable, being very opinionated, punitive, arrogant, and demanding.

Sadly, these traits can often propel someone into top business leadership positions, largely by reasons of necessity (no one else willing to step forward).

Not everyone "willing to step forward" has the negative traits and characteristics you present.
Often it can be a matter of circumstances, especially the personality types in the mix of the group where one takes the leader role.

Let's "get 'er done!"

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I never even remember my Jungian profile,

INTJ here.

 

[Stryder50]

Thanks so much for your thoughts on this. I couldn't agree more... especially with your "most of all" point in the second to last sentence. I didn't get into that in the OP, because then I probably would have had to post this in the Religion section. But I absolutely agree that seeking God's will is the best and WISEST thing that anyone can do. It took me a looooong time to learn that...and I had to learn it the hard way, but I finally learned. I also think that how one prioritizes their life is important. If God isn't put first, then everything else is out of whack. Thanks again for your reply.

Can depend on which "Gawd" or how one defines God (or Goddess?)

JHWH is a bit different than Jesus, who is very different than Allah. Then there's The Buddha.
Not to mention a few other past versions and then their is the case of Polytheism or a cast of many gods and goddesses.

A key to discussions of this sort is look outside your cultural situation, upbringing compare to others around the planet and in history.

 

[Stryder50]

Like I said, one is more "ego" related and the other is more "self-worth" related.

Can the two exist together? Not really. That would be a daily conscious fight that would drive any guy crazy.

Being a good man taking charge is not the same thing. He does it because he sees a need for it, not because he believes himself better than all the other men and HAS to be the only Rooster in the hen house.

There's a case to be made that some with very high sense of their "self-worth" (I'm better than all the rest) also have a heavy dose of ego.

 

[Stryder50]

My opinion:

I've known a number of men who feel a need to boast and brag and pat themselves on the back as a matter of routine. I've always been repulsed by their behavior and avoid them when possible. I personally believe these sorts of men are covering for an inner weakness. Perhaps they're cowards in real life. It's like the men who are exposed for "stolen valor." Men who claim to be military tacticians but have never spent any time in the military. Men who boast about how courageous they are but have never had to face an enemy on the battlefield or in a backstreet ally.

I can't help but think of the Lindsay Grahams of the world. Pansies who routinely push for war from the comfort of their warm and protected offices. Quick to send YOUR KIDS into battle while watching (and cheering) from afar.

While there are some who fit your case/example, "time in the military" does guarantee that one will become a good tactician or strategist. Those are different qualities/traits by the way.

History is filled with many generals who should never have been in command and directing the course of the battle/war. As in many fields of human endeavor, often the "politics within the system" is how some rise to be in charge, not skill or merit.

 

[buttercup]

Can depend on which "Gawd" or how one defines God (or Goddess?)

JHWH is a bit different than Jesus, who is very different than Allah. Then there's The Buddha.
Not to mention a few other past versions and then their is the case of Polytheism or a cast of many gods and goddesses.

A key to discussions of this sort is look outside your cultural situation, upbringing compare to others around the planet and in history.

Yes, of course I know that not everyone has the same beliefs about God, and not everyone believes in the existence of a higher power at all. In that post you quoted, I was talking directly to that poster, who had brought up God (from a Christian perspective) in his post.

I don't want to get off topic here, but in response to what you said in that last sentence.... what's interesting to me is that some people assume that a person becomes a believer because of their upbringing or culture. But that isn't always the case. There are a lot of people from other parts of the world (the Middle East, Africa or Asia, for example) who become Christians not due to their upbringing, but for other reasons. And there are a lot of Americans who might come from a Christian background, who identify as agnostic or atheist. But this is actually a topic for a thread of its own, so...I'll just leave it at that for now, and if anyone wants to start a new thread, I think that would be a good discussion.

 

[Stryder50]

Man, speaking of armchair warmongers...that might be a good thread in and of itself. What is that makes some people have that "kill em all" mindset and bloodlust, but would probably never themselves volunteer to be on the front line? Lindsey Graham is indeed a good example.

But anyway, again I agree with pretty much everything you said, thanks.

That "armchair warmongers" classification applies to many in regard to politics.
We see it in the exchanges here between political Left versus Right.
We've seen it in the streets these past several years.

 

[Stryder50]

Alpha Male vs a Real Man... Are They the Same Thing?​

They can be the same thing. I personally believe a real man should have a little "alpha" in him but he shouldn't allow it to dominate his life. In other words, a real man should focus on his responsibilities. That is, he should provide for his family. He should prepare for the future including potential crises. He should be humble, gentle, kind, cheerful, thoughtful, honest, and charitable while being able to "step up to the plate" to confront evil if or when necessary. He should be productive. He should maintain his health -- not only for his own benefit but for the benefit of others. A sickly, weak man can be a burden on his family. So eating right and exercising should be a part of his daily regimen. Most of all, a real man should seek the will of God and reflect it in his daily life as much as possible. No man is perfect but some are more perfect than others.

It's possible to be both, or "same thing" but it's somewhat rare.
Many great leaders in history had both.
A classic quality of a leader is that others are willing to follow, don't have to be forced to do so.